MDs, Islam, Medievalism & the Enlightenment

[August1991]

I have been thinking about a post to a different thread n this forum, and about these Medical Doctors arrested recently in the UK.

The post first:

ScottSA, if you look back in history (and you seem to enjoy doing that), you'll note that we largely didn't defeat obscurantism by violent means. On our side is the obvious fact that individuals benefit from freedom.

It's not obscurantism we're fighting against. It's Islam. And looking back in history, you'll find that neither Mustafa Pasha in 1687 nor the Ottomans in 1444, nor any of the numerous clashes between Islam and the west were won by trotting out "freedom" as an end unto itself. Freedom is not working well at the moment either as an antidote to Islam. In fact, I can't think of a single case in which either freedom or enforced politeness working. The only time it has been tried, actually, is the Austro-Hungarian Empire, where there were even more "anti-racism" type laws than there are now in Europe, and we all know how hand-holdingly peaceful that turned out to be.

The simplistic slogan claiming that freedom has to be defended is not merely an empty platitude.

I have thought that we confront primarily superstitious people from a few centuries ago, medieval people with access to modern technology. ScottSA argues above that on the contrary, we face Muslims.

Mark Steyn provided a link to this Muslim journalist:

But with hindsight, I can see that what we now call extremism was virtually the norm in the community I grew up in. It was completely normal to view Jews as evil and responsible for the ills of the world. It was normal to see the liberal society around us as morally corrupt, its stains to be avoided at all costs. It was normal to see white girls as cheap and easy and to see the ideal of femininity as its antithesis. These views have been pushed to more private, personal spheres amid the present scrutiny of Muslim communities.

But they remain widespread, as research in Britain showed earlier this year: up to 50 per cent of British Muslims aged between 15 and 29 want to see sharia law taken up in Britain.

Steyn didn't quote the subsequent sentence in Tanveer Ahmed's column:

This needs to be seen in the light of American data collated by the Pew Research Centre that showed close to 80 per cent of American Muslims believed they could move up the social ladder in the US and had no interest in Islamic laws on a public level.

We can quibble about what the other 20% of American Muslims believe but I'm disturbed by a greater thought.

I have met and spoken to superstitious, medievalists in India, China and of course the Middle East. For some reason, some of those Islamic medievalists now pose a threat to us in the Liberal West. (IME, superstitious, medievalists are supremely pragmatic. They are not ideological at all.)

This question is more intriguing. The 19 hijackers in September 2001 were educated and well off. 15 of them were Saudis. Mohammed Atta had graduated in engineering, if I'm not mistaken. In these recent foiled UK terror attempts, there were medical doctors involved. How does one get through medical school and still remain superstitious, or unaware of the Enlightenment?

There is a side to engineering, or medicine, that is purely technical. It applies by rote accepted solutions to known problems. There is another side (pathology, for example) that requires an open-minded intellectual curiousity.

IOW, it is possible to receive a Western education without receiving an Enlightened Western education.

----

I still think that superstitution is the threat we face. It happens that some superstitious Islamists, even educated, have access to modern technology and have a sufficient chip on their shoulder to get them involved in mayhem.

I suspect that we in the Liberal West will soon face similar threats from other quarters. Most of the world lives in an 11th century mindframe. It is our job to bring them into the 21st century.

----

With that said, I'm inclined to question myself and wonder whether ScottSA has a point. What is it about Islam that makes it so troublesome? (Europeans are more violent but Muslims are troublesome.)

Returning to the column above:

Muslim communities must openly argue precisely what it is they fear and loathe about the West. Much of it centres on sexuality. This is the first step in rooting out any Muslim ambivalence about living in the West. But thereafter, the argument must proceed rapidly to Islamic theology and all its uncomfortable truths - from its repeated glowing references to violence, its obsession with and revulsion at sex and its historical antipathy to the very possibility that reason can exist as separate from God.

Muslims have tremendous issues with sex. It's the most obvious feature of life in the Middle East. I myself have started threads on this issue.

So, maybe ScottSA has a point. We're not dealing with medievalists. We're dealing with the sexually frustrated.

[cybercoma]

I really have nothing to add other than, if people think the "religious" part of religious fanaticism isn't based solely in superstition, then there's nothing that can be said to them to convince them otherwise. They've decided upon an answer without any pretense of reason. There's no more reason to believe in modern religions and Gods than there is to believe in ancient religion and Gods. It is precisely this mindset of superstition, combined with poor education and access to modern technology that is creating the volatile society we live in.

[kuzadd]

"Muslims have tremendous issues with sex. It's the most obvious feature of life in the Middle East. I myself have started threads on this issue."

Muslims have issues with sex???

What about the ideologically nutty Fundamentalist chrisitans, they don't have issues with sex???!!

Do you miss the threads on this forum wrt homosexuality, women's rights, doctors refusal to treat patients raped based on religious beliefs and more???

Is this a serious thread?

I have to ask, cause honestly, I can hardly see it as that.

Is this just another way to demonize Mislims with more nonsense, dressed up as 'enlightened discussion'???

Take a good look around this forum.

[ScottSA]

Muslims have tremendous issues with sex. It's the most obvious feature of life in the Middle East. I myself have started threads on this issue.

Theories abound, ranging from this one, to the idea that the overabundance of young males in Islam account for the trouble. But none of these ideas single out Islam itself, or try to understand what Islam really is. Lots of religions are sexually repressed; most forms of Christianity prefer pre-marital celibacy and many sects actually practise what they preach; but Christianity is not indulging in a rash of beheadings on an unimaginable scale. Go here (link) and scroll down to see the scale of the ongoing death toll...and even that is under reported. Yound men may account for the rash of attacks in this generation, but they don't account for over 1500 years of bloodshed and gore that just gets worse and worse as time goes on.

We are not yet ready to objectively examine the precepts of Islam, prefering instead to pretend that Jihadists have somehow different beliefs than ordinary "peaceloving" Muslims do. They don't. We're still attempting to assume that Islam is in favor of peace just like we are. We're still attempting to assume that everyone prefers a state of freedom to a state of order, just like we do. Some of us are even trying to scrape up lame equivalencies between the behaviour of Islam and the behaviour of Christianity in the 20th century...a completely farcical endeavor.

Someday we'll actually start looking at what Mohammed said instead of what Cair and the CIC says he said. Then we'll know why Islam is Islam.

[scribblet]

Muslims have tremendous issues with sex. It's the most obvious feature of life in the Middle East. I myself have started threads on this issue.

So, maybe ScottSA has a point. We're not dealing with medievalists. We're dealing with the sexually frustrated.

It is obviously part of a problem with their culture/society as the whole issue of burkas etc. boils down to the sexual issue. From what I've read it is not required by the Koran but is the work of some sexually frustrated morons.

I never thought much about it before, but now I do, maybe there is a connection between sexual repression, extreme violence and the (mainly) male Muslim obsession with death.

We are supposed to respect diversity of beliefs and traditions even if those beliefs include human rights abuses of women in Muslim countries. But when you look around for the most part, societies were women are equal are more educated, sophisticated with better economies. So maybe one method of combating terrorism is for us to do more towards helping women in Muslim societies. Maybe it is not just a woman's issue.

Having said that, fact that the recent British plot involves supposedly better educated Muslims is there any reason for us to believe that we can change their mediaval mindset any time soon?

[ScottSA]

Muslims have tremendous issues with sex. It's the most obvious feature of life in the Middle East. I myself have started threads on this issue.

So, maybe ScottSA has a point. We're not dealing with medievalists. We're dealing with the sexually frustrated.

It is obviously part of a problem with their culture/society as the whole issue of burkas etc. boils down to the sexual issue. From what I've read it is not required by the Koran but is the work of some sexually frustrated morons.

Burkas are not explicitely required by the Koran, but the sexual frustration is. I just don't see sexuality as a viable argument, though. Sexually repressive morays exist in many societies, and those societies don't blow things up on a regular basis. Thugs in Harlem no doubt boink everything that moves, and they're still thugs. No doubt the sexuality thesis is a psychoanalyst's dream come true, but I just don't think it flies.

[Mad_Michael]

I have met and spoken to superstitious, medievalists in India, China and of course the Middle East. For some reason, some of those Islamic medievalists now pose a threat to us in the Liberal West. (IME, superstitious, medievalists are supremely pragmatic. They are not ideological at all.)

As a general rule, I consider the threat from Christian medievalists within the West to be a greater or more likely threat to my way of life, health, peace and security, than any Islamic medievalist.

IOW, it is possible to receive a Western education without receiving an Enlightened Western education.

Very true.

I suspect that we in the Liberal West will soon face similar threats from other quarters. Most of the world lives in an 11th century mindframe. It is our job to bring them into the 21st century.

That would make us no better than they are. They want to drag us (kicking and screaming) back to the 11th century (14th to be more accurate for Christian/Islam historical analogies) and you want to drag them (kicking and screaming) up to the 21st century.

An eye for an eye just makes two people blind.

Western paternalism is as obnoxious as medieval fanaticism.

[capricorn]

Speaking of superstition, what about radical Islamists' belief that their reward for blowing themselves up is an unknown number of virgins waiting for them on the other side. The sexual connotation is evident. I don't think the Koran makes reference to these mythical virgins.

This raises another question. Is this promise of unlimited sexual pleasure following death a ploy used by Islamic extremists to indoctrinate and seduce potential terrorists and suicide bombers?

[scribblet]

I have met and spoken to superstitious, medievalists in India, China and of course the Middle East. For some reason, some of those Islamic medievalists now pose a threat to us in the Liberal West. (IME, superstitious, medievalists are supremely pragmatic. They are not ideological at all.)

As a general rule, I consider the threat from Christian medievalists within the West to be a greater or more likely threat to my way of life, health, peace and security, than any Islamic medievalist.

I beg to differ, I don't see any threat from Christians (medieval or otherwise) we have separation of church and state, constitutions, charters etc. There is no moral comparison between what the radical Islamists want (subservience and world wide sharia law) and any other religion.

However, when Christians start indiscriminately blowing up anyone they don't like and start strapping bombs onto their kids, let me know and I'll revise my thinking.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I suspect that we in the Liberal West will soon face similar threats from other quarters. Most of the world lives in an 11th century mindframe. It is our job to bring them into the 21st century.

While there are lots of backward ass groups of people in the world, there is only one that I know of that has the intent of killing or enslaving non-members and bent on mysoginistic world domination

[Mad_Michael]

I beg to differ, I don't see any threat from Christians (medieval or otherwise) we have separation of church and state, constitutions, charters etc. There is no moral comparison between what the radical Islamists want (subservience and world wide sharia law) and any other religion.

However, when Christians start indiscriminately blowing up anyone they don't like and start strapping bombs onto their kids, let me know and I'll revise my thinking.

1. Canada does not have "separation of Church and State". Please supply a citation for this alleged 'separation' in Canadian law.

2. Christian terrorists murdering doctors in the USA obviously don't count. And they are a lot closer to me than the suicide bombers you speak of.

3. How about those good Christian boys out there in Wyoming that beat Matthew Sheppard to death for sport?

4. And how about that American McVie character? Or PETA fanatics? There's home-grown terrorists of a type that poses a major danger to my personal safety and security. Much more so than suicide bombers on the other side of the planet.

Plenty of superstitious violence lying around to choose from. I find Islam-bashing a bit too selective for my tastes.

[Moxie]

Well it isn't the Christians and other groups committing violent crimes in the name of their God it's Muslims Mad.

I believe Muslims are medieval because they don't, seem to, think for themselves, highly educated Muslim Males need barely literate Imams and Mullahs to tell the what the Koran says. Hello read the book and decided for yourselves. Radical Fanatical followers of Islam have a hive mentallity, they are dangerous because they believe global domination is when in reach. At least they aren't using we hate you "Because of your foreign policies anymore" they've shown us their true faces and it's a celphate they are after.

Muslim males who follow Wahhabi Islam are dangerous in Democratic countries and I'll post an article that will show that these young men think non-Muslim women are trash and they feel no remorse when they rape us and neither does the socialist government. Why are these spineless elite leaders allowing women to be raped and tossed aside like trash? I guess like Islam Socialism hold us females in contempt to be treated as males deem fit. Note the total lack of respect for non-Muslim women in the last paragraph.

I read an article a while back that a blogger wrote claiming that 9 out of ten rapes in Norway were commited by Muslim men. The police were not keeping track of rapistest race because they knew it made Muslims look bad. Sweden in now suffering from the same malice. What will wake up these socialist hell holes, women are not uncovered meat. This bloggers has made it his mission to get the truth out, because the socialist elite want it buried. Note how one socialist female blames global warming, I can't make this stuff up.

Story and Source: http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/06/...rape-waves.html The noted blogger Fjordman is filing this report via Gates of Vienna.

For a complete Fjordman blogography, see The Fjordman Files. There is also a multi-index listing here.

Helle Klein, a former member of the board of the Swedish Social Democratic Youth League (SSU) and until recently the political editor-in-chief of Aftonbladet, Sweden’s largest newspaper, has stated that “If the debate is that there are problems caused by refugees and immigrants, we don’t want it.”

Sweden is in the midst of the worst rape wave in Scandinavian history. Judging from numbers from neighboring countries Norway and Denmark, this is probably intimately related to recent mass immigration, especially from Muslim countries. Now, if you have a problem that you suspect may be largely caused by immigration, but you have already decided that these policies shouldn’t be questioned, what to do?

Well, you can blame it on… the weather! According to this article from Aftonbladet, with the title “Summertime — rape time”, the huge spike in rapes during the summer is caused by the nice, warm weather, which brings out all those hormones. The official number of rape charges has more than quadrupled in the space of just one generation, and Swedish women in some areas of the country are increasingly afraid to move around outdoors. If this is because of the warm weather, I suppose the Scandinavian rape wave is caused by global warming?

The ethnologist Maria Bäckman, in her study “Whiteness and gender,” has followed a group of Swedish girls in the suburb of Rinkeby. Several of them had dyed their hair to avoid sexual harassment. Being blond involves old men staring at you and boys calling you “whore.” According to author Bruce Bawer, the city of Stockholm carried out a survey of ninth-grade boys in the predominantly Muslim suburb of Rinkeby. In the last year, 17% of the boys had forced someone to have sex and 31% had hurt someone so badly that the victim required medical care. Sensational statistics — but they appear to have been published only in a daily news sheet that is distributed free on the subways. The mainstream media ignored it.

Immigrant Rape Wave in Sweden

- - - - - - - - - -

“It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably f***ked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will have problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.” It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne. “It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore…… girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get f***ked to pieces.”

[Bonam]

That guy should be deported ASAP, along with all his buddies.

[cybercoma]

I'm completely wrong when I say poor education, the more I read about it the more I'm realizing these terrorists in the western world are actually very well educated. Quite simply, it's the superstitions and the superstitions alone that are creating this idiocy.

[August1991]

2. Christian terrorists murdering doctors in the USA obviously don't count. And they are a lot closer to me than the suicide bombers you speak of.

3. How about those good Christian boys out there in Wyoming that beat Matthew Sheppard to death for sport?

4. And how about that American McVie character? Or PETA fanatics? There's home-grown terrorists of a type that poses a major danger to my personal safety and security. Much more so than suicide bombers on the other side of the planet.

When Christian terrorists hijack big planes and fly them into tall buildings killing thousands, then I'll agree with you.

It is hard not to see McVeigh as anything but an isolated case. The 19 guys who hijacked the planes in September were the definition of a conspiracy. Indeed, this conspiracy has deliberately killed innocent people in places such as London, Madrid, Bali, New York and Washington.

It is absurd to compare these Islamic terrorists to a few punks who killed a young gay man, tragic as that was.

[AngusThermopyle]

I've noticed a few statements so far in this thread that would seem to indicate some uncertainty as to exactly what the Quran does and does not specifically state. earlier ScotSA provided a link to a very informative site. If you go beyond the home page death count you'll find it answers many of the questions being debate in this thread. It's hard to argue with quotes taken directly from the book.

Islam does seem to have some very serious contradictory issues related to sex. These stem from directly opposing statements made by Mohammed. He is quoted as proclaiming that all homosexuals should be executed yet the Muslim world has historically always had far more than a casual flirtation with homosexual practices. Adulterers are to be executed, unless they are unwed men performing the act of adultery with married women. In that case the women are to be executed, not the men. Islam permits a man to wed up to four women and bring an unlimited amount to his bed. If his woman objects he may beat or divorce her. Mohammed also stated that women should cover themselves and lower their eyes so as not to meet the gaze of other men.

As I said, a very informative site. It astounds me that supposedly educated people can find reasons to admire or support such a hodge podge collection of random decrees intended to do no more than tip the social balance overwhelmingly in the favour of men. Actually it was primarily in the favour of Mohammed and just happened to benefit Islamic men in general.

Oh, yes, hello everyone.

[Riverwind]

It astounds me that supposedly educated people can find reasons to admire or support such a hodge podge collection of random decrees intended to do no more than tip the social balance overwhelmingly in the favour of men.

Ever read Leviticus?

[AngusThermopyle]

Certainly. I did not mean to imply that I find the Bible to be any more credible than the Quran. But we aren't talking about the Bible here, we're talking about sexual attitudes instilled by Islam. Personally I cant fathom this need to believe in such things. I'm not trying to insult any here of any faith or, for that matter, anyone in particular. I just cant understand this need that is present in so many.

[Riverwind]

I just cant understand this need that is present in so many.

Culture. People mistake religion for Culture. On paper Christianity is just as backwards as Islam yet Christians tend to be more enlightened because of the culture of the societies that they live in. There was a time when Islamic societies were quite enlightened compared to the Christian ones. However, they fell behind the Europens discovered the virtues of global trade and conquest. In response, Islamic societies turned inward.

[AngusThermopyle]

Thats true. Although Islam has had high points throughout its history this particular era doesn't happen to be one of them. I think the rigidly structured and repressive nature of Islam has held the Muslim people back and severely limited both their technological and cultural growth. After all due to the Qurans proclamations regarding women and their role in society, Islam has wasted the potential for advancement of a large segment of their population. That would be bound to retard progression to some evident degree.

[Riverwind]

I think the rigidly structured and repressive nature of Islam has held the Muslim people back and severely limited both their technological and cultural growth.

You could make the same argument about the caste system in India or Confucianism in China, Korea and Japan. Those societies all did go through a period of backwardness but have now opened up and recognized that those annoying Europeans had a few good ideas. Islamic societies are in desperate need of a Meiji Emperor or a Deng Xiaoping. I have read one historian that suggests the reason for Islam failing to modernize because it is too closely associated with Christian Europe over time.

[AngusThermopyle]

Well I've never heard that theory before, it would probably be interesting to hear his justification for it. It could also have something to do with the policy of pogroms that have regularly been enacted in more recent Islamic history. The continuous series of genocidal campaigns by the Islamic empire since Mohammed's time may have contributed as well. When you exterminate and forcefully assimilate entire cultures you also exterminate any cultural, economic or technological advances they may have been able to offer.

[Riverwind]

When you exterminate and forcefully assimilate entire cultures you also exterminate any cultural, economic or technological advances they may have been able to offer.

This is pretty much what everyone did at the time. I don't think you could find any single factor which explains the failure of Islam societies to modernize. I would also agree that the nature of Islam is one factor but not for the reasons you stated. Islam is the only major religion where the holy figure was also a leader of the government. This created societies where the 'divine right of kings' is entrenched in their basic beliefs and not something added later by opportunistic feudal lords. This has made it much more difficult to depose despots and when groups do manage to do it they have to demonstrate that they have better Islamic credentials than the despots in power.

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually I mentioned the genocides as one factor that has held back their society, most certainly not the only one. The point you raise is a very good one. In Islam the leader at the time of Mohammed was Mohammed. Since he was the chosen one of Allah there was no distinct seperation of church and state (that sounds so trite). His illogical decrees touted as the direct word of god served to lock the culture rigidly into a set path that embraced no social progress whatsoever. However it cant be denied that the Muslim chain of conquest and policy of expansionism resulted in more than a few instances of Genocide through the ages.

Point of fact is that quite a few current Islamic societies hold true to the teachings of Mohammed in a fundamental way and as such are not entirely opposed to traditional methods of spreading the "word".As fascinating as the history of Islam is, it is not certain that it could ever attain the momentum it enjoyed in the past. One would certainly hope not anyway. The mediteranean area would suffer greatly and Spain would once more fall under Islamic servitude (no more Penelope Cruz's strutting their lovely stuff for us). It doesn't appear to be possible to pin the recessive nature of Islamic culture down to any one particular factor. It would appear to be the result of a cumulative effect instead.

[Mad_Michael]

Islam is the only major religion where the holy figure was also a leader of the government. This created societies where the 'divine right of kings' is entrenched in their basic beliefs and not something added later by opportunistic feudal lords.

You are apparently ignoring the (Christian) Byzantine Empire - which formerly ruled over the entirety of the Turkey and the Middle East and established the principle in the region.

And the 'divine right of kings' was a concept invented by the Christian Church in Europe, not by feudal lords. Are you not familiar with the importance of the Pope crowning Charlemagne on Christmas Day in 800 AD? Charlemagne was thus 'annointed' by God. This is the real political origin of the 'divine right of kings' (in Europe).