Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcar

jdobbin · July 8, 2007

Do you have anything to offer to this thread, or is your specialty deflecting any criticism of Canada?

I've certainly offered criticism on Canadian health policy. I certainly think it needs improvement.

I don't have any suggestions for the U.S. system other than if people think it should change, to use the power of the ballot box.

You, on the other hand, act like a boor and have an endless stream of anti-Canadian posts. You think it is a personal attack for me to point this out but come on, admit it, you hate Canada and Canadians. You can't stand Canada and express that hatred in post after post after post.

If I went back a few months and checked every post of yours, all I would see is the hate filled venom that you have posted against Canada.

You lack humour, grace and thoughtfulness in your posts. Even if you did have a point, it is marked by anger and spite.

I first thought that you were offering right wing support for Tory allies here but even they shy away from your positions like the plague.

So carry on with your blather. Don't let my observation on your obvious distaste for Canada keep you from continuing to post on the subject.

bush_cheney2004 · July 8, 2007

...You, on the other hand, act like a boor and have an endless stream of anti-Canadian posts. You think it is a personal attack for me to point this out but come on, admit it, you hate Canada and Canadians. You can't stand Canada and express that hatred in post after post after post.

Are you done? I will continue, but not because of your "permission".

Did I wish you a Happy Canada Day (you deleted this silly line from the original post)? Are you serious?

My stated mission on this board is straightforward....engage any sanctimonious position that is posted when the USA is used as the target or foil to define Canada. Support positions I agree with, and attack those that I don't.

Please use the ignore feature if you can't handle my brand of debate and biting reflection. Learn how to attack ideas, not people.

I don't hate anybody, but I do resent those who would stifle debate and attack members personally because of their views. If you got no game, please step aside and let those who do participate.

Besides, if this were a TV show, I would be good for ratings.

jdobbin · July 9, 2007

I don't hate anybody, but I do resent those who would stifle debate and personally attack members because of their views. If you got no game, step aside and let those who do participate. Besides, if this were a TV show, I would be good for ratings.

If this was a game show, you'd be voted off the island.

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2007

If this was a game show, you'd be voted off the island.

Still got no game, eh? Take your best shot dobbin. Who died and left you king...we have a thing about "kings", dontcha know!

jdobbin · July 9, 2007

I can't say I agree with all that MM does or how he presents it, but facts are facts.
France, for example, has a 35 hour work week with a minimum of five weeks off; an extra week for a honeymoon the year you get married; a day off to move when necessary; and a government worker comes inot the home 4 hours a day to help when a new baby arrives. That on top of free healthcare.

MM brought three rescue workers from NYC 9-11 to Cuba for health care that they couldn't get and/or afford here. The inhaler one woman has to buy sells for $120 in the U.S., five cents in Cuba.

I could go on.

I don't like being made to feel defensive about my country and how "good" it is, but this movie definitely puts me in that mode.

There was some interesting stuff on the British and French segments of the movie. For universal healthcare systems, it really does seem like the top level when it comes to care.

It is probably worth studying in terms of reforms for Canada.

Renegade · July 9, 2007

As for health care being a "right" in Canada, since it's available to everyone and no one can be turned away, it's basically a right, so I'm not going to play word games.

I think you need to distinguish between a "right" and universality. Since the service is offered to every resident, its is universal. It is not however a "right". The services offered can be changed simply by legislation. The same is true of police or fire services. A government can decide not to provide fire services and that it should be provided by volunteers. A goverment however, cannot simply pass legislation which contrevenes a citizen's rights, neither in the US nor Canada, except in some very exceptional circumstances.

Neither in Canada nor in the US is free access to healthcare defined as a right.

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2007

And if we didn't engage in wars of choice on countries that were no threat to us we could afford universal health care. What is it? 275 million a day or thereabouts?

The US federal government already spends more on health care than Social Security and Defense combined. In fact, the Medicaid program is the single largest threat to US budget solvency in the future because of the large and retiring boomer generation.

The USA's Great Society programs were created during the Vietnam War / Cold War....next!

July 9, 2007

The US federal government already spends more on health care than Social Security and Defense combined.

I don't think that is correct. What figures/sources are you using to draw that conclusion?

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2007

I don't think that is correct. What figures/sources are you using to draw that conclusion?

US Federal Budget for DHHS programs (Medicare, Medicaid & SCHIP). The killer for these entitlement program expenditures is that they are recurring and growing at an alarming rate as a percentage of GDP, while military spending is more discretionary.

Social Security is actually a net contributor and is off budget.

jbg · July 9, 2007

One thing that's misleading is how Canada's health care is referred to as "free." It's not free. The money is coming from Canadians through their tax dollars. Which is why it must be really annoying (to put it mildly) when people like Adrianne (I think that was her name) went into Windsor from Michigan claiming to be the common law wife of her Canadian friend to get "free" health care. Of course for her it was free.
Desperate people do desperate things. Wouldn't it be wonderful if our U.S. tax dollars went for health care instead of bombs?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if petrodollars went for improving the lives of Arabs and not into human walking bombs?

jbg · July 9, 2007

....please keep sending more patients down here....because we make that "choice" possible.

IOW - the Canadian system does not depend on access to the US medical system. That is yet another myth peddled by the Health industry in the US.

From what I understand, the US is a "safety valve" so that wealthy Canadians don't have to endure life-threatening or at least miserable "waits" for service. The system would certainly implode in a hurry if people with power, wealth and influence had to suffer from an indifferent, but "free" system. Thus, it is not numbers that make the difference. It's the identities of those who "jump the queue".

How often do you think Paul Martin, Demairis, Strong or Bronfman endure lengthy "waits"?

jdobbin · July 9, 2007

From what I understand, the US is a "safety valve" so that wealthy Canadians don't have to endure life-threatening or at least miserable "waits" for service. The system would certainly implode in a hurry if people with power, wealth and influence had to suffer from an indifferent, but "free" system. Thus, it is not numbers that make the difference. It's the identities of those who "jump the queue".
How often do you think Paul Martin, Demairis, Strong or Bronfman endure lengthy "waits"?

Bronfman is an American so I expect he goes where he wants to.

Paul Martin was treated in American hospitals? When?

Strong has a residence in the U.S. so I expect he has received medical attention there.

I have never heard of any hospital that Desmarais has used any place.

jbg · July 9, 2007

Bronfman is an American so I expect he goes where he wants to.
Paul Martin was treated in American hospitals? When?

Strong has a residence in the U.S. so I expect he has received medical attention there.

I have never heard of any hospital that Desmarais has used any place.

I meant it as a generic comment. Do you think Filmon or Doer, or the Asper family, endures lengthy "waits"?

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2007

Canadian Forces are issued Blue Cross - Blue Shield insurance cards to jump the que as well when approriate.

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/..._admhrmil_e.asp

jdobbin · July 9, 2007

I meant it as a generic comment. Do you think Filmon or Doer, or the Asper family, endures lengthy "waits"?

Filmon and Doer have never jumped any wait by going to a private clinic. Neither has had a surgery that was expedited that I know of.

Izzy Asper was referred by his doctor to the Mayo Clinic for treatment. Every other time he had a heart event, he waited for surgery at St. Boniface hospital. Just like everyone else. He made a point about that and it was mentioned several times in newspapers.

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2007

Q: Will my provincial health-care provider or extended health care plan cover me for costs?

A: Each province has different policies and procedures regarding coverage for out-of-country health care. Most Canadians seeking health care at Mayo Clinic are doing so at their own expense. However, there are situations the provincial plans will cover. Between 10 and 15 percent of Canadian patients at Mayo Clinic receive reimbursement from their provincial or private insurance provider. If your local specialists have exhausted all options, they might approach the provincial provider on your behalf with a request for coverage.

Q: My 85-year-old dad wants to see a specialist at Mayo Clinic, but he speaks only French. Also, he's never traveled before and doesn't own a credit card.

A: The Mayo Clinic has interpreters on staff for more than 30 languages; you just need to make your needs known ahead of time. The clinic also is ready to assist elderly or infirm patients with all their special needs; however it is recommended that they be accompanied by a family member or close friend. Also, to simplify payment of travel costs and medical expenses, it's a good idea to get a credit card.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/connection/canadian-hotline.html

Riverwind · July 9, 2007

The system would certainly implode in a hurry if people with power, wealth and influence had to suffer from an indifferent, but "free" system.

What the presence of the US system has done is hinder the development of a parallel private system in Canada. If Canadians did not have access to US hospitals then the Canada government would have allowed private hospitals in Canada a long time ago (a practice which every other OECD country allows). So it is false to say the Canadian system of universal coverage requires access to treatment in the US. Without the US the Canadian system would be different but coverage would still be universal.

I have believed for a while that Canadian and US systems are evil twins that feed off each other. Americans have one of the worst health care systems in the industrialized world but they are inundated with myths and half-truths about the Canadian system which makes them scared to change anything. The same thing is true of Canada where the system is better than the US but not that much better (30 vs 37). For Canadians, the American system has made many develop an irrational fear of private for profit medicine. Both countries end up losing because fear of the other's system hijacks and discussion of the sensible hybrids that exist in places like France.

bush_cheney2004 · July 9, 2007

If Canadians did not have access to US hospitals then the Canada government would have allowed private hospitals in Canada a long time ago (a practice which every other OECD country allows). So it is false to say the Canadian system of universal coverage requires access to treatment in the US. Without the US the Canadian system would be different but coverage would still be universal.

Interesting....so Canada has never had private hospitals? Gee, I wonder how things worked before the CHA.

SkyhookJackson · July 9, 2007

And if we didn't engage in wars of choice on countries that were no threat to us we could afford universal health care. What is it? 275 million a day or thereabouts?

The US federal government already spends more on health care than Social Security and Defense combined. In fact, the Medicaid program is the single largest threat to US budget solvency in the future because of the large and retiring boomer generation.

The USA's Great Society programs were created during the Vietnam War / Cold War....next!

More of a reason to institute universal health care in the United States. All health-related programs could be incorporated into one (including the VA system) and the government could strip the profits and negotiate prices with providers the same way the insurance companies now do. Of course we'd go belly up if we gleefully paid $10 for an aspirin (10 cents for the aspirin, $9.90 in the insurance company profits column), but that isn't likely to happen. You, BC2004, of all people, should be praying we get universal healthcare. As it stands now, I should thank you on behalf of myself and 46,999,999 others, for footing the bill for our health care. When we can't pay, the hospital eats the bill, raises the fee for services and passes it along to the insurance companies. Bingo . . . your premiums go up another 10%. With the profit taken out of health care, it's highly unlikely any additional taxes would come close to the amount spent by most people on health insurance premiums. More money for you, BC2004 - you've gotta love that!

July 9, 2007

The US federal government already spends more on health care than Social Security and Defense combined.
I don't think that is correct. What figures/sources are you using to draw that conclusion?

US Federal Budget for DHHS programs (Medicare, Medicaid & SCHIP). The killer for these entitlement program expenditures is that they are recurring and growing at an alarming rate as a percentage of GDP, while military spending is more discretionary.
Social Security is actually a net contributor and is off budget.

If you're just looking at the Federal Budget, no wonder your conclusion is incorrect. The budget doesn't include the funding for the war(s); that money comes from a special request to Congress, and it seems Bush is always asking for more money. Billions more. It's why we as a nation are so far in debt, rather than on budget. There are other things that the Defense Budget doesn't include either, such as nuclear weapon research, which falls under the Dept. of Energy.

mikedavid00 · July 9, 2007

Unfortunately and sadly, minority group life expectancies are lower in the US.....

This in not totally true..the longest living American demographic group is Asian females.

Researchers at Harvard University's Initiative for Global Health and its School of Public Health divided the US into eight "Americas" based on factors including race, location, population density, income and homicide rates

http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/0002418/42/

Thank you for the post and the cite.

Just as I guessed. People of the 3rd world traditionally have better diets, then come here, then enjoy our cholestoral lowering medications, bypasses and such which most likely cuased them to live longer. Oh yes, they usual get this for free since they have not paid taxes. You can't convince me that these Asian elderly were born and raised in the US. Please don't insult our intelligence.

People who are poor (ie man blacks in the US) have higher drug use and may experience more still births I assume. This *drasticly* lowers the average life expectancy.

Let's take still birth and immigrants of the picture and THEN measure life expectancy.

I have a hunch the numbers will come out a bit different.

Bryan · July 10, 2007

Why do you guys keep feeding the troll?

About rights:

The Canada Health Act refers to it as an entitlement. As Canadians, we are entitled to our universal healthcare system.

entitled. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved July 09, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entitled

1. to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim: His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others.

TomAYto, tomAHto.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Bryan

bush_cheney2004 · July 10, 2007

If you're just looking at the Federal Budget, no wonder your conclusion is incorrect. The budget doesn't include the funding for the war(s); that money comes from a special request to Congress, and it seems Bush is always asking for more money. Billions more. It's why we as a nation are so far in debt, rather than on budget. There are other things that the Defense Budget doesn't include either, such as nuclear weapon research, which falls under the Dept. of Energy.

No, you are mistaken. Since the 1960's Great Society programs were enacted, they have gobbled up far more than the defense budgets, including the "wars". The USA actually made money on Gulf War I. Recurring entitlement programs with a growing class of users really puts the hurt on the federal budget, war or no war.

Riverwind · July 10, 2007

No, you are mistaken. Since the 1960's Great Society programs were enacted, they have gobbled up far more than the defense budgets, including the "wars". The USA actually made money on Gulf War I. Recurring entitlement programs with a growing class of users really puts the hurt on the federal budget, war or no war.

I went and checked your figures on this. It appears your claim that health spending is larger than military spending is nominally correct even if you include the 100 billion for Iraq which is not included in the official budget. However, the difference is not large (640 billion vs. 660 billion). Social security is another 570 billion so saying that health spending exceeds military + social security is wrong.

That said, those numbers do not include the income from medicare deductions off paychecks. These amount to 57% of money spent. Accounting for those premiums means that net health spending is only about 400 billion which is much less than the military spending.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Riverwind

bush_cheney2004 · July 10, 2007

No, you are mistaken. Since the 1960's Great Society programs were enacted, they have gobbled up far more than the defense budgets, including the "wars". The USA actually made money on Gulf War I. Recurring entitlement programs with a growing class of users really puts the hurt on the federal budget, war or no war.
I went and checked your figures on this. It appears your claim that health spending is larger than military spending is nominally correct even if you include the 100 billion for Iraq which is not included in the official budget. However, the difference is not large (640 billion vs. 660 billion). Social security is another 570 billion so saying that health spending exceeds military + social security is wrong.
That said, those numbers do not include the income from medicare deductions off paychecks. These amount to 57% of money spent. Accounting for those premiums means that net healthspending is only about 400 billion which is much less than the military spending.

Thank you for confirming my claim...Medicare payroll taxes are paid by employer and employee as revenue to the US Treasury, and as such are not separate premiums. Social Security is off budget and collections are a net gain as of now. The main point of my claim, even with the small difference, is that the Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP entitlement programs are recurring outlays that will only grow larger....not so "wars".

Edited July 10, 2007 by bush_cheney2004