Private Healthcare? Why Not?

[FascistLibertarian]

Hey all

just wondering how people can argue that I can spend money on my car, my kids education, my clothing, my teeth, and my house.

But if I want to spend my money on my own health in Canada, then that is illegal.

How does this make any sense?

I work hard for my money, if there is one thing I should be allowed to spend MY OWN MONEY on it is MY OWN HEALTH AND BODY.

That is bascially why I am for both public and private healthcare.

If she is smart belinda will go to the states!

If you had the money, and the cancer, what would you do?

[geoffrey]

The Supreme Court (and me too) agrees with you.

From the majority decision in Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General), 2005 SCC 35:

Where lack of timely health care can result in death, the s. 7 protection of life is engaged; where it can result in serious psychological and physical suffering, the s. 7 protection of security of the person is triggered. In this case, the government has prohibited private health insurance that would permit ordinary Quebeckers to access private health care while failing to deliver health care in a reasonable manner, thereby increasing the risk of complications and death. In so doing, it has interfered with the interests protected by s. 7 of the Canadian Charter.

Section 11 HOIA and s. 15 HEIA are arbitrary, and the consequent deprivation of the interests protected by s. 7 is therefore not in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. In order not to be arbitrary, a limit on life, liberty or security of the person requires not only a theoretical connection between the limit and the legislative goal, but a real connection on the facts. The task of the courts, on s. 7 issues as on others, is to evaluate the issue in the light, not just of common sense or theory, but of the evidence. Here, the evidence on the experience of other western democracies with public health care systems that permit access to private health care refutes the government’s theory that a prohibition on private health insurance is connected to maintaining quality public health care. It does not appear that private participation leads to the eventual demise of public health care.

The breach of s. 7 is not justified under s. 1 of the Canadian Charter. The government undeniably has an interest in protecting the public health regime but, given that the evidence falls short of demonstrating that the prohibition on private health insurance protects the public health care system, a rational connection between the prohibition on private health insurance and the legislative objective is not made out. In addition, on the evidence, the prohibition goes further than would be necessary to protect the public system and is thus not minimally impairing. Finally, the benefits of the prohibition do not outweigh its deleterious effects. The physical and psychological suffering and risk of death that may result from the prohibition on private health insurance outweigh whatever benefit – and none has been demonstrated here – there may be to the system as a whole.

The Charter forces the government to allow you to buy your health care if you would otherwise be negatively affected by waiting. You have a SCC decision on your side.

Now do you want to the risk the cost of a lengthy court battle to try?

[madmax]

Hey all

just wondering how people can argue that I can spend money on my car, my kids education, my clothing, my teeth, and my house.

Go to a private clinic and pay.

[geoffrey]

Go to a private clinic and pay.

I want insurance to do so, like the SCC says I have a right to. Too bad that's illegal.

[scribblet]

People don't want private healthcare because they are afraid that it might, somehow, take away their 'freebies'.

[Shakeyhands]

I believe that private health care will be more expensive, US style private health care is more expensive than what we have, and the last report I saw said it wasn't as good either. In that I believe that we'll get two tiers of care as well. Does someone making less money deserve lesser care? Does Belinda deserve better care than Barbara Q. Public???

I also like the fact that we all pitch in together for the good of our neighbours. FascistLibertarian, if you "get the cancer" I don't mind paying some so that you aren't destroyed financially, in fact it makes me feel good to do so.

Do I think the ships could be run tighter, sure. Do I believe there may be some sort of balance, sure, and I already think there is for non emergent, elective procedures.

Sometimes its ok to help your neighbour out, someday they'll help you out too.

Scriblett, where do you get these silly ideas?

[scribblet]

Scriblett, where do you get these silly ideas?

Where do you get yours?

Of course they are afraid they'll lose their 'freebies' read some of the posts about how it would erode the current system and take away doctors and operating rooms from the current system. Not only that, why on earth should anyone have a choice in how they spend their own money therefore 'jumping the line' (sarcasm here)

[cowtown]

I'd like a combo system. All Canadians should have access to public healthcare. It wouldn't bother me if a Canadian decided to go for private treatment or private insurance as long as he/she continues to pay into the public system.

Someone who would benefit from private insurance, in Canada, would probably be better off financially than the average person. These people generally do not use the public health care system as much as lower income earners.

How much money is spent outside of Canada on private treatments? It would be better for that money to be spent within Canada. IMO.

[FascistLibertarian]

I believe that private health care will be more expensive, US style private health care is more expensive than what we have, and the last report I saw said it wasn't as good either. In that I believe that we'll get two tiers of care as well. Does someone making less money deserve lesser care? Does Belinda deserve better care than Barbara Q. Public???

Well then the people who use pruvate healthcare will pay more money and get worse service (if you are right). Does Belinda deserve worse healthcare than she can afford because someone else can not afford private healthcare?

I also like the fact that we all pitch in together for the good of our neighbours. FascistLibertarian, if you "get the cancer" I don't mind paying some so that you aren't destroyed financially, in fact it makes me feel good to do so.

I agree that we should all pitch in. What you are saying is if I have cancer you think that pitching in is the only option even if I was willing and able to pay for it myself.

If I had cancer I would not want to forcing me to wait for treatment. I would want the quickest treatment I could get (as any sane person would)

[Mad_Michael]

People don't want private healthcare because they are afraid that it might, somehow, take away their 'freebies'.

People aren't stupid.

They know that as soon as one portion of the healthcare sector is 'profit-driven' that will act like a wedge to drive down service levels across the board - and one by one, various services would become 'pay-services' in the future.

And of course, the existence of a private option removes the impetus to keep the present system functional and responsive. If you have alternative choices available, that will encourage the tax-paid system to sink to the lowest common denominator of bare-minimum service (let people pay for their 'premium' services).

Before you know it, we will have EXACTLY the same healthcare system that we abandoned in the 1950's as unworkable and non-functional.

If we are lucky and follow the advice of all these ideological commentators & think tanks with vested interests, maybe we can have a system that is unworkable, nonfunctional and outrageously expensive, just like our American neighbours!

[FascistLibertarian]

Yeah your right. Healthcare in France and Italy sucks.

Why dont you stop using the American comparison, its so tired and old.

Oh oh if we do this we will be just like the Americans.

Basically your arugement comes down to not letting people pay if not everyone can afford it.

What kind of logic is this.

[Keepitsimple]

It makes sense to me that doctors and hospitals should be able to "contract out" for specific services - much as they have been doing for many years for blood work and EKG's. There are already private hospitals that do hip and knee replacements. Perhaps there can be specialized private hospitals/clinics that do heart operations, as an example. The key point is that contracting out would be subject to strict parameters:

1) The specialized hospitals/clinics MUST accept all patients - no "skimming" where "difficult" patients are refused.

2) There is a flat fee for service that is no greater than the cost of using the Public system - some times they'll make a profit - sometimes it will cost a bit more (the "difficult ones). This fee is negotiated between the Provincial Health Authority (PHA) and the Private Hospital/Clinic.

3) The service must be provided within a specified period of time; 15 days, 30 days etc. This is part of the Service Level Agreement between the PHA and the Private Hospital/Clinic.

4) All payments are made with the user's Health card.

5) The Private Hospital/Clinic can move people to the front of the queue as long as they pay for the services themselves. Queue jumping is NOT not be paid for by the PHA and will only be allowed if the Private Hospital/Clinic is meeting the Service Levels established by the PHA for regular public users.

This approach would allow for specialized services in areas approved by the PHA's. Yes, it's an "assembly line" service but that's how you get "scales of economy" that lead to faster and cost-effective services.

[weaponeer]

Privatize health care, lower income tax in a very big way to help people pay for it themselves...

Personal responsibility!!!!!

[margrace]

Privatize health care, lower income tax in a very big way to help people pay for it themselves...

Personal responsibility!!!!!

So what happens to the people who are in the lower income brackets and can't pay.

[Drea]

Weaponeer, that's a laugh!

Reduce income tax by what 10%, so that a person can afford to pay off a $250,000 treatment?

Even if income tax were eliminated I still would not be able to afford it.

I'll wait in line thanks.

Paying off medical bills is the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the US.

and you want this system?

Pffft.

[margrace]

One of the common beliefs is that if you say a thing often enough then people will believe it. So this is the reason that Private Healthcare keeps being touted on here. We just have to keep saying it just isn't so.

[Drea]

They die Margrace.

It's hard to fathom how people think though isn't it?

"survival of the fittest" is "survival of the richest"

[ScottSA]

They die Margrace.

It's hard to fathom how people think though isn't it?

"survival of the fittest" is "survival of the richest"

How ridiculous. Private healthcare kills people now?

[weaponeer]

They die Margrace.

It's hard to fathom how people think though isn't it?

"survival of the fittest" is "survival of the richest"

Actually I am talking about a large tax cut, 50-70% range. We tend to forget when we compare our system to the US system (in order to scare Canadians) that our American counterparts pay far less taxes than we do. I lived in the USA for years, if you had a job you had healthcare, and far better than we have here.

I live in North Bay ON, hospital there is a joke to say the least. I take my family to the USA for anything major. You see, we already have a two tiered system.

Why should I pay taxes through the ass so some guy that smokes 3 pack a day can have a new lung. Where is his responsibility in this. A person whom acts foolishly and causes the injury to another, should they not pay something for the treatment of the one they harmed... but again, leftards do not understand the concept of personal responsibility.... only the culture of entitlment....

If you make below a certain income level, you get medicare, everyone else buys insurance....

[Drea]

Fixing a broken leg is one thing.

Did you never see the show John Q Public?

That is the reality in the US. Sure you maybe allowed by your insurance co. to have your broken leg fixed but your are out of luck if you have a long term health issue.

Why, if you hate our social system so very much, did you return? You had it made in the shade in the USA, why come back here?

I lived in the USA for years, if you had a job you had healthcare, and far better than we have here.

[Drea]

Fixing a broken leg is one thing.

Did you never see the show John Q Public?

That is the reality in the US. Sure you maybe allowed by your insurance co. to have your broken leg fixed but your are out of luck if you have a long term health issue.

Why, if you hate our social system so very much, did you return? You had it made in the shade in the USA, why come back here?

I lived in the USA for years, if you had a job you had healthcare, and far better than we have here.

USA TODAY

The average cost for a family health insurance policy topped $10,000 for the first time this year, although premium costs rose at their slowest rate since 2000, a closely watched survey of employers released Wednesday shows.

A far cry from the $95 per month I paid for my son and myself before I got coverage at work....

[weaponeer]

Fixing a broken leg is one thing.

Did you never see the show John Q Public?

That is the reality in the US. Sure you maybe allowed by your insurance co. to have your broken leg fixed but your are out of luck if you have a long term health issue.

Why, if you hate our social system so very much, did you return? You had it made in the shade in the USA, why come back here?

I lived in the USA for years, if you had a job you had healthcare, and far better than we have here.

I came back because I was transfered back, but that's not what we are talking about. No, I don't hate our social system, I think it absolves people of their responsibilities. Families are not important, the gov't will pay our bills, look after our kids etc... any probs/issues, the gov't will solve it...

I believe in personal responsibility. You helped make yourself sick, you should pay something. You hurt somebody, you get out your cheque book....

I did see the movie John Q, lots of BS in it. I lived in Oklahoma, I talked about the whole healthcare issue alot with my neighbours. They are not in favor of our system at all. They can purcahse group health plans, combine home auto and health insurance into a packages. They can tailor their coverage etc.... You can buy insurance to cover you for long term care, loss of wages etc... or you can choose not too...your choice not the gov'ts...

[jdobbin]

How ridiculous. Private healthcare kills people now?

18,000 a year in the U.S. according to a recent study die because they can't afford healthcare.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/health...ance-deaths.htm

More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.

The 193-page report, "Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," examines the plight of 30 million — one in seven — working-age Americans whose employers don't provide insurance and who don't qualify for government medical care.

About 10 million children lack insurance; elderly Americans are covered by Medicare.

[ScottSA]

How ridiculous. Private healthcare kills people now?

18,000 a year in the U.S. according to a recent study die because they can't afford healthcare.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/health...ance-deaths.htm

More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.

The 193-page report, "Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," examines the plight of 30 million — one in seven — working-age Americans whose employers don't provide insurance and who don't qualify for government medical care.

About 10 million children lack insurance; elderly Americans are covered by Medicare.

Forgive me if I don't even bother opening the "study." Anyone who has even been within spitting distance of the ivory halls knows very well that "recent studies" pretty much reach a priori conclusions. My understanding is that public healthcare takes over from private when a certain threshold is reached. My understanding is that no person in the US is denied healthcare.

Without looking at the study, I'll hazard a guess that the argument is that public healthcare does an inadequate job of providing for the people whoi use it...am I right? Consider then the thousands of people in canada...every single one of us, who are dying for exactly the same reason...long lines and inadequate healthcare. In fact, I bet this is more a condemnation of public healthcare than of private.

[Drea]

No, I don't hate our social system, I think it absolves people of their responsibilities. Families are not important, the gov't will pay our bills, look after our kids etc... any probs/issues, the gov't will solve it...

How so?

Family is important. Who are you getting your info from?

The govt does not pay our bills. I don't know about you but I pay my own hydro...

The govt does not look after our kids. Daycares (usually private -- a mom with an extra room or the YMCA) are paid by the working person. If working person earns lotsa dough then they pay for it, if not the govt kicks in so that the working poor can keep working. This is a bad idea? Is is better for a single parent to work at Zellers (getting a $300/month subsidy for daycare) or stay at home and collect welfare ($1000/month). Which is less? Which costs the taxpayer less?

I believe in personal responsibility. You helped make yourself sick, you should pay something. You hurt somebody, you get out your cheque book...

Of course. And when your 16 yo son wrecks his car -- do you want him to be saddled with a $250,000 debt for making a mistake by driving too fast?

We do, we pay health insurance premiums on top of the taxes that are collected from us. So our medical system certainly is not "free".

I did see the movie John Q, lots of BS in it. I lived in Oklahoma, I talked about the whole healthcare issue alot with my neighbours. They are not in favor of our system at all. They can purcahse group health plans, combine home auto and health insurance into a packages. They can tailor their coverage etc.... You can buy insurance to cover you for long term care, loss of wages etc... or you can choose not too...your choice not the gov'ts...

No way! Combine me and my car on one policy -- that is too funny. (and rather convoluted I would think). Well, the car is covered for scratches but your not! LOL