Atlantic Accord - Who will stand up for Ontario?

[Keepitsimple]

Interesting article in the Sun. Here's a snippet but please read the whole article:

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...pf-4267364.html

The question is: while the federal government of Stephen Harper is defending Ontario, where do Ontario Liberals MPs stand?

Let's rewind the tape of this political soap opera and go back two years.

It was the former Liberal government of Paul Martin which, for electoral purposes, gave in to the demands of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia at the expense of Ontario.

Ontario Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty complained to the then Liberal government in Ottawa that Ontario could not sustain the financial burden of the "equalization formula."

McGuinty said that the burden on the shoulder of Ontario taxpayers was $22 billion every year.

'NO IMBALANCE'

And it was the present Liberal leader, Stephane Dion, who rebuked McGuinty, saying that there was no "fiscal imbalance."

What did the more than 70 Liberal MPs do to help McGuinty? Did anyone threaten Martin with voting against the Liberal budget, like one Conservative colleague is doing in Nova Scotia? Nope.

And what are these Libeal MPs doing now that their new leader is siding with the Atlantic premiers, ignoring, again, the rights of Ontario the taxpayers?

[Canuck E Stan]

Ontario will have to make some choices in the next election and the Liberal MP's will have to tell Ontarians how their party really stands on this issue.

Look for a Conservative majority in the next election.

"Hands in your pocket" is the easiest way to make a voter decide which way to vote.

[Michael Bluth]

Ontario will have to make some choices in the next election and the Liberal MP's will have to tell Ontarians how their party really stands on this issue.

Look for a Conservative majority in the next election.

"Hands in your pocket" is the easiest way to make a voter decide which way to vote.

I wouldn't put it past the Conservatives to come up with a similar type jingle.

They have proven they aren't afraid of cheezy in their ads *beep* *beep* and proved that cheezy can work.

[Argus]

Premier Dalton McGuinty waded into the fracas over the federal budget yesterday, warning that Ontario won't tolerate any further steps to shield resource-rich provinces from equalization clawbacks.

McGuinty weighs in on Atlantic Accord

"I know that Prime Minister Harper has made a deliberate effort to bring a principle-based approach to dealing with equalization and federal transfers to provinces and territories. I support that concept. We are very much in agreement with that kind of approach and I hope that he continues to be informed by principles rather than politics as he enters into this newest round of discussions."

McGuinty talks tough on equalization

[Who's Doing What?]

So who gets more Ontario(and Alberta) money?

Atlantic Canada?

Or Quebec?

[Mad_Michael]

So who gets more Ontario(and Alberta) money?

Atlantic Canada?

Or Quebec?

Quebec is by far the largest recipient of equalisation payments in Canada - in gross dollars.

Newfoundland is the largest recipient of equalisation payments in Canada - per capita.

I believe all of the Maritimes exceed Quebec (but below NFLD) in the per capita receipt of equalisation payments, though I don't have any data available at hand. I'm sure it can all be found pretty easily since I've seen data tables on this topic dozens of times.

[madmax]

Premier Dalton McGuinty waded into the fracas over the federal budget yesterday, warning that Ontario won't tolerate any further steps to shield resource-rich provinces from equalization clawbacks.

McGuinty weighs in on Atlantic Accord

"I know that Prime Minister Harper has made a deliberate effort to bring a principle-based approach to dealing with equalization and federal transfers to provinces and territories. I support that concept. We are very much in agreement with that kind of approach and I hope that he continues to be informed by principles rather than politics as he enters into this newest round of discussions."

McGuinty talks tough on equalization

I really don't know how much I could put into anything McGuinty Says.

Changes with the wind, and his promises are never fullfilled.

When he stands up to defend something, it is for his political benefit, not a Provincial Benefit.

Perhaps that is why I don't trust a word out of his mouth, and you would be wise not to either.

[Mad_Michael]

Premier Dalton McGuinty waded into the fracas over the federal budget yesterday, warning that Ontario won't tolerate any further steps to shield resource-rich provinces from equalization clawbacks.

McGuinty weighs in on Atlantic Accord

"I know that Prime Minister Harper has made a deliberate effort to bring a principle-based approach to dealing with equalization and federal transfers to provinces and territories. I support that concept. We are very much in agreement with that kind of approach and I hope that he continues to be informed by principles rather than politics as he enters into this newest round of discussions."

McGuinty talks tough on equalization

I really don't know how much I could put into anything McGuinty Says.

Changes with the wind, and his promises are never fullfilled.

When he stands up to defend something, it is for his political benefit, not a Provincial Benefit.

Perhaps that is why I don't trust a word out of his mouth, and you would be wise not to either.

Indeed. And especially true now that Dalton is on the campaign trail. Nothing any politician says during a campaign can be taken at face value. Everything must be assumed to be 'spin' until proven otherwise.

[NovaScotian]

So who gets more Ontario(and Alberta) money?

Atlantic Canada?

Or Quebec?

Quebec is by far the largest recipient of equalisation payments in Canada - in gross dollars.

Newfoundland is the largest recipient of equalisation payments in Canada - per capita.

I believe all of the Maritimes exceed Quebec (but below NFLD) in the per capita receipt of equalisation payments, though I don't have any data available at hand. I'm sure it can all be found pretty easily since I've seen data tables on this topic dozens of times.

I can make an estimate based on the 2008-09 estimated equalization payments and estimated population.

Prince Edward Island.......$2230

New Brunswick..................$1930

Manitoba.............................$1670

Nova Scotia........................$1380

Quebec.................................$986

Newfoundland.....................$390

[Mad_Michael]

I can make an estimate based on the 2008-09 estimated equalization payments and estimated population.

Prince Edward Island.......$2230

New Brunswick..................$1930

Manitoba.............................$1670

Nova Scotia........................$1380

Quebec.................................$986

Newfoundland.....................$390

Unless you cite a source, your data is meaningless.

Here's some data for 2003/04

In 2003-2004, the federal government made equalization payments of $8.69 billion to the provinces. Seven provinces qualified for equalization that year – Quebec, Manitoba, British Columbia and the four Atlantic provinces.

Of the seven provinces that qualified for equalization in 2003-2004, Quebec received the largest total amount – approximately $3.8 billion. However, this was due entirely to its population size relative to that of other equalization-receiving provinces. On a per capita basis, Prince Edward Island was the largest recipient, at about $1,689 per person. The smallest was British Columbia, at $77 per person.

Source

If you know the various Provincial populations, the subsidy per capita rate can be calculated.

As for PEI being the largest per capita recipient of Alberta & Ontario taxpayers, that is pathetic. PEI already has 4 Federal Senators, its own Provincial Legislature and several MP's. All for a place that has less population than the riding I live in where we have 1 MPP and 1 MP (and no free money from anyone).

Subsidies breed dependencies. That's what subsidies do. They are not good for anyone.

[NovaScotian]

I can make an estimate based on the 2008-09 estimated equalization payments and estimated population.

Prince Edward Island.......$2230

New Brunswick..................$1930

Manitoba.............................$1670

Nova Scotia........................$1380

Quebec.................................$986

Newfoundland.....................$390

Unless you cite a source, your data is meaningless.

Opps, very true.

Equalization

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

And population estimate in 2008-09, medium projection.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/91-5...591-520-XIE.pdf

[Leafless]

As for PEI being the largest per capita recipient of Alberta & Ontario taxpayers, that is pathetic. PEI already has 4 Federal Senators, its own Provincial Legislature and several MP's. All for a place that has less population than the riding I live in where we have 1 MPP and 1 MP (and no free money from anyone).

Subsidies breed dependencies. That's what subsidies do. They are not good for anyone.

Agreed.

But you overlooked one important point.

The money the fed's give the provinces is not Ontario money or Alberta money.

Ontario for instance has 38% of the population and pays 42% of federal taxes, the extra 4% because we have more high earning individuals and corporations here.

The emphasis is totally on the federal government and how it spends our tax dollars.

Equalization is breaking Canada whereas that tax money could be spent in different badly needed areas.

Currently Atlantic Canada is in the process of ripping off the federal government and Quebec is treated like a kingdom.

The federal government must draw the line somewhere and a good place is the equalization program.

Subsidies breed dependencies.

[NovaScotian]

Agreed.

But you overlooked one important point.

The money the fed's give the provinces is not Ontario money or Alberta money.

Ontario for instance has 38% of the population and pays 42% of federal taxes, the extra 4% because we have more high earning individuals and corporations here.

The emphasis is totally on the federal government and how it spends our tax dollars.

Equalization is breaking Canada whereas that tax money could be spent in different badly needed areas.

Currently Atlantic Canada is in the process of ripping off the federal government and Quebec is treated like a kingdom.

The federal government must draw the line somewhere and a good place is the equalization program.

Subsidies breed dependencies.

"Currently Atlantic Canada is in the process of ripping off the federal government"

Right.......Did the Government of Canada sign an agreement that said that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia could keep 100% of its oil and gas revenues until 2012-13, no matter what equalization formula is in place??? Does our governments signature mean nothing?

Anyway, this is not going to be a popular opinion and I won't be well liked after a say it, but...

I hate to break up this whole Ontario pity party and yes, equalization as flaws, but I am suppose to believe Ontario, home of the national capital and its legions of highly payed bureaucrats + location of most national headquarters, huge infrastructure expenditures & investments, massive federal R&D investments, Canada's banking & financial capital, Canada's Keynesian planned manufacturing sector, not to mention the fact that Ontario has a huge influence on federal policy.....is a huge some big loser/victim in this confederation?

And if you are so convinced that subsidies are the terrible, I *kindly* suggest you petition the provincial government to end the $2.8 billion in annual subsidies to Ontario related interests, not even including provincial and federal subsidies to agriculture and manufacturing ...because as you know.... subsidies breed dependencies. That's what subsidies do. They are not good for anyone.

[Michael Bluth]

Right.......Did the Government of Canada sign an agreement that said that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia could keep 100% of its oil and gas revenues until 2012-13, no matter what equalization formula is in place??? Does our governments signature mean nothing?

The governmen tof Paul Martin signed the Atlantic Accord.

They lost the succeeding election.

Was that a contributing factor?

I hate to break up this whole Ontario pity party and yes, equalization as flaws, but I am suppose to believe Ontario, home of the national capital and its legions of highly payed bureaucrats + location of most national headquarters, huge infrastructure expenditures & investments, massive federal R&D investments, Canada's banking & financial capital, Canada's Keynesian planned manufacturing sector, not to mention the fact that Ontario has a huge influence on federal policy.....is a huge some big loser/victim in this confederation?

Agreed that Ontario has enjoyed huge infrastructure investments.

However, Rodney MacDonald is not acting in the best interest of Nova Scotians at this point. He is trying to make political gains rather than sitting down with Jim Flaherty to negotiate a deal that works for everybody.

[August1991]

John Crosbie sets the record straight. Ontario may not have received federal equalization funds but it has benefitted hugely over the years through a variety of industrial programmes such as the auto-pact and Candu. (Ontario is the only province in Canada with any sizeable auto industry or nuclear stations.)

Newfoundland lawyer John Crosbie, who is a former finance minister under Brian Mulroney, said the Harper government was breaching the Atlantic Accord with the 2007 budget by unilaterally altering the accord without the consent of Newfoundland or Nova Scotia. Echoing MacDonald's presentation, Crosbie said the federal government is deliberately confusing the public and media by linking the accord with equalization payments.

"It's very discouraging that it gets mixed up with equalization ... we are not trying to have our cake and eat it too. We haven't had the frigging cake yet. Let's have the cake first and this is all we want. We are having our cake removed," said Crosbie.

He said the accord is actually an economic development program which the finance department's website acknowledges, and is comparable to Ontario's various autopact programs to assist the automobile industry in that province.

Canwest

[runningdog]

Agreed.

But you overlooked one important point.

The money the fed's give the provinces is not Ontario money or Alberta money.

Ontario for instance has 38% of the population and pays 42% of federal taxes, the extra 4% because we have more high earning individuals and corporations here.

The emphasis is totally on the federal government and how it spends our tax dollars.

Equalization is breaking Canada whereas that tax money could be spent in different badly needed areas.

Currently Atlantic Canada is in the process of ripping off the federal government and Quebec is treated like a kingdom.

The federal government must draw the line somewhere and a good place is the equalization program.

Subsidies breed dependencies.

"Currently Atlantic Canada is in the process of ripping off the federal government"

Right.......Did the Government of Canada sign an agreement that said that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia could keep 100% of its oil and gas revenues until 2012-13, no matter what equalization formula is in place??? Does our governments signature mean nothing?

Anyway, this is not going to be a popular opinion and I won't be well liked after a say it, but...

I hate to break up this whole Ontario pity party and yes, equalization as flaws, but I am suppose to believe Ontario, home of the national capital and its legions of highly payed bureaucrats + location of most national headquarters, huge infrastructure expenditures & investments, massive federal R&D investments, Canada's banking & financial capital, Canada's Keynesian planned manufacturing sector, not to mention the fact that Ontario has a huge influence on federal policy.....is a huge some big loser/victim in this confederation?

And if you are so convinced that subsidies are the terrible, I *kindly* suggest you petition the provincial government to end the $2.8 billion in annual subsidies to Ontario related interests, not even including provincial and federal subsidies to agriculture and manufacturing ...because as you know.... subsidies breed dependencies. That's what subsidies do. They are not good for anyone.

well said.

[Leafless]

I hate to break up this whole Ontario pity party and yes, equalization as flaws, but I am suppose to believe Ontario, home of the national capital and its legions of highly payed bureaucrats + location of most national headquarters, huge infrastructure expenditures & investments, massive federal R&D investments, Canada's banking & financial capital, Canada's Keynesian planned manufacturing sector, not to mention the fact that Ontario has a huge influence on federal policy.....is a huge some big loser/victim in this confederation?

And if you are so convinced that subsidies are the terrible, I *kindly* suggest you petition the provincial government to end the $2.8 billion in annual subsidies to Ontario related interests, not even including provincial and federal subsidies to agriculture and manufacturing ...because as you know.... subsidies breed dependencies. That's what subsidies do. They are not good for anyone.

You sound like you have a high level of contempt for Ontario, so why don't you try uprooting yourself and move to where the action is or where the good life is, according to you.

BTW- Manufacturing subsidies are not in the same category as equalization.

For instance the Fed's subsidize the auto industry in Ontario and automobiles shipped across Canada create JOBS in all provinces including Nova Scotia.

[jbg]

Ontario will have to make some choices in the next election and the Liberal MP's will have to tell Ontarians how their party really stands on this issue.

Look for a Conservative majority in the next election.

"Hands in your pocket" is the easiest way to make a voter decide which way to vote.

If Ontario votes Liberal again, they'll get what they deserve; giveaways of their provinces' wealth. I know the CPC has been doing a bit of that, but nothing like what Dion would do.