10 Things Christians and Atheists Can and Must Agree On....

[guyser]

Who does a Buddhist pray to? You really have to get over this 'old-guy-in-robes' image of religion that Christians have. Most religions are not like that.

A religion is a beleif system. If you are an atheist then you worship the idea that there is no god.

Hmm, I never said a damned thing about old guy in robes, but you see fit to include as for what purpose?

I do not, let me repeat, I do not, never have and never will worship any idea that there is no god.

So, now what?

[Mad_Michael]

Can Christians and atheists both agree that...

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

We're putting aside the question of which belief system has killed more people by percentage of population, or whether a hypothetical world without religion would have seen fewer or more genocides than ours. We're not going to open a spreadsheet and try to count which belief system manufactures more murderous sociopaths per capita.

All I need from you is agreement that it's entirely possible for either an atheist or theist world to devolve into a screaming murder festival. The religious leader sends his people into battle because he thinks God commanded it, the Stalins and Maos of the world do the same because they see their people as nothing more than meaty fuel to be ground up to feed the machinery of The State. In both cases, the people are equally dead

PLUS 9 MORE>>>>>>>>>

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/godfuse.html

This is a strawman. Stalin and Mao have everything in common with self-righteous religious fanatics and act like them in every way. Mao certainly was fanatic about 'spiritualism'.

In other words, self-righteous fanatics are dangerous.

I've studied too much history to give the religious fanatics a pass on anything.

Please give us some examples of actual 'humanists' who have been fanatical murdering monsters...

[Riverwind]

I do not, let me repeat, I do not, never have and never will worship any idea that there is no god.

If you believe that there is no god then your worship the idea that there is no god. If you don't know and don't care about the existence of a deity then you are not an atheist.

[Mad_Michael]

If you believe that there is no god then your worship the idea that there is no god.

No. I don't believe in God or any Gods. I don't believe in godhood. I worship nothing.

Worship requires that one give some service to something. I give non-god nothing.

This need to pretend that atheists are just like the religious fanatics is spurious.

[guyser]

If you believe that there is no god then your worship the idea that there is no god. If you don't know and don't care about the existence of a deity then you are not an atheist.

I find that quite funny. Since I dont worship god I worship that there isnt one.

And since I dont care , I am not an atheist. How so?

[Riverwind]

Worship requires that one give some service to something. I give non-god nothing.

Your ethical and moral framework is built around your belief that there is no god. Building your ethical and moral framework on a concept means your worship that concept.

[guyser]

Is hockey a religion?

Is any sport a religion?

Is going to movies a religion?

Is cooking a religion?

Is loving all woman a religion?

[Riverwind]

And since I dont care , I am not an atheist. How so?

An atheist is some one who believes there is no god. If you accept the possibility that there could be a god but you really don't care one way or another then you are an agnostic.

hockey a religion?

Is any sport a religion?

Is going to movies a religion?

Is cooking a religion?

Is loving all woman a religion?

None of these activities provide a moral and ethical frame of reference.

[guyser]

Put me in the "NO GOD" camp. But I spend no time thinking about it. That was done long long ago.

[Mad_Michael]

Your ethical and moral framework is built around your belief that there is no god. Building your ethical and moral framework on a concept means your worship that concept.

1. No, my ethical and moral framework is not built around a non-belief in God. I have the same (or very similar) ethical and moral framework as my sister (for example). We were both taught the same things by the same teachers and were raised in the same environment. She believes in God, I do not.

Btw, the absence of a belief in God is not proof of a belief in non-god. The absence of a thing cannot be used to prove a positive assertion.

2. You can have no reason, basis or proof to assert that my ethical or moral framework is built on anything at all. Indeed, if your God is true, I have no morality at all by non-belief in God (by definition), ergo, your argument is spurious from a Christian moralist point of view.

[Mad_Michael]

None of these activities provide a moral and ethical frame of reference.

For discussion purposes, since you claim to know, what activities DO provide a moral and ethical frame of reference?

[Mad_Michael]

An atheist is some one who believes there is no god.

There you go again asserting that a negative act magically engenders a positive result.

An atheist rejects belief in God. It is a negative act.

Belief in God or belief in no-God are positive acts.

There are entirely different. For the purpose of your argument, you are pretending they are one and the same.

Some atheists may believe in non-God, for others, it is merely a logical conclusion.

[guyser]

None of these activities provide a moral and ethical frame of reference.

Ok then, how does my non-belief provide a moral and ethical frame of reference.

[White Doors]

An atheist rejects belief in God. It is a negative act.

No, an Atheist believes that there is no god.

[Mad_Michael]

An atheist rejects belief in God. It is a negative act.

No, an Atheist believes that there is no god.

Please substantiate your argument. As it stands, it is merely a naked statement of your own opinion.

Please explain how a negative act (rejecting belief in God) produces a positive belief.

[Riverwind]

2. You can have no reason, basis or proof to assert that my ethical or moral framework is built on anything at all.

Your ethical or moral framework is built on a set of assumptions regarding the way the universe works. If you assume there is no god then that is your basis for your moral framework.

Claiming that your moral framework is built on nothing is non-sensical. It is like claiming that you live in a house that is built on nothing.

[Mad_Michael]

Your ethical or moral framework is built on a set of assumptions regarding the way the universe works.

Actually, no.

I don't care (or know) how the universe works.

If you assume there is no god then that is your basis for your moral framework.

Where have I said I assume that there is no god? Please cite.

I don't possess a belief that God exists. That is not an assumption of anything.

Claiming that you moral framework is built on nothing is non-sensical. It is like claiming your live in a house that is built on nothing.

No, not at all. Who says I have a moral framework? Maybe I just make it up as I go along? Maybe I don't.

The point is, there is no way you can know what it is - and that means when you tell me what it is, I find it absurd. You are projecting.

P.S. I note that you are selective in your replies.

[White Doors]

An atheist rejects belief in God. It is a negative act.

No, an Atheist believes that there is no god.

Please substantiate your argument. As it stands, it is merely a naked statement of your own opinion.

Please explain how a negative act (rejecting belief in God) produces a positive belief.

Well since neither position can be proven, neither one can be shown to be either negative or positive.

Your qualms with grammer and linguistics do not add logic to yoru argument.

[Riverwind]

No, not at all. Who says I have a moral framework? Maybe I just make it up as I go along? Maybe I don't.

Then 'making it up as you go along' is your moral framework. My point is you have a moral and ethical framework because you are human. You cannot avoid having one. Even psychopaths have a moral framework that is built on self gratification (i.e. worship of themselves).

Every person's moral framework incorporates their belief or non-belief in a diety.

Put it another any way: you can refuse to make a choice between two options but you still make a choice. Your choice to 'not choose' becomes your choice.

[cybercoma]

But I have to agree that religion would be the wrong word to use in the case of atheism itself. But either way these people are not free from beliefs. Be they political or whatnot. Everyone regardless of faith in God or not, has belief systems. Here we have Cybercoma who in another thread would legally impose his belief that religion be ought to be banned. With all the religious people in the world how does he propose to enforce this law? People will still be religious, right? So how does he propose to deal with theists if he were to have his way.

I never said religion should be banned. In fact, if I was so inclined I'd post a link to where I said it'd be useless to ban religion because people would still practice privately. It's much more beneficial to raise people's understanding of reason and the way the universe and world actually work, so that religion begins looking as ridiculous as it is.

[cybercoma]

Your ethical or moral framework is built on a set of assumptions regarding the way the universe works.

Actually, no.

I don't care (or know) how the universe works.

If you assume there is no god then that is your basis for your moral framework.

Where have I said I assume that there is no god? Please cite.

I don't possess a belief that God exists. That is not an assumption of anything.

Claiming that you moral framework is built on nothing is non-sensical. It is like claiming your live in a house that is built on nothing.

No, not at all. Who says I have a moral framework? Maybe I just make it up as I go along? Maybe I don't.

The point is, there is no way you can know what it is - and that means when you tell me what it is, I find it absurd. You are projecting.

P.S. I note that you are selective in your replies.

Mad Michael's replies have been brilliantly on point in explaining precisely what atheism is and the theists in this thread have either refuse to accept or have completely ignored the point.

[cybercoma]

Well since neither position can be proven, neither one can be shown to be either negative or positive.

Your qualms with grammer and linguistics do not add logic to yoru argument.

Just because neither can be proven with any sort of certainty doesn't mean that God is even probable. Without any sort of evidence to support a God's existence, it is fair to say that it's improbable.

You see, this is the point where you try to prove me wrong by showing that there IS a probability of God.

[cybercoma]

No, not at all. Who says I have a moral framework? Maybe I just make it up as I go along? Maybe I don't.

Then 'making it up as you go along' is your moral framework. My point is you have a moral and ethical framework because you are human. You cannot avoid having one. Even psychopaths have a moral framework that is built on self gratification (i.e. worship of themselves).

Every person's moral framework incorporates their belief or non-belief in a diety.

Put it another any way: you can refuse to make a choice between two options but you still make a choice. Your choice to 'not choose' becomes your choice.

Why do deities have to be part of the equation at all?

You said it yourself. You have a moral framework because you're human. So there's something about the species that creates this morality, not a supernatural deity.

[Riverwind]

You said it yourself. You have a moral framework because you're human. So there's something about the species that creates this morality, not a supernatural deity.

I never said a deity creates the moral framework. I said each person creates their own moral framework based on what they believe. If you don't believe there is a god then that is the basis for your moral framework.

[White Doors]

Just because neither can be proven with any sort of certainty doesn't mean that God is even probable

you keep missing the point, post after post, day after day.