Right Wing Dreams Of Yesteryear - Boot Camps

[Michael Hardner]

It's a good idea to point out that the "loony left" doesn't have a monopoly on social engineering ideas gone awry.

Boot camps, touted as a panacea for youth crime in the mid-90s, are a failure. It's a good idea to point these things out once in awhile...

Toronto Star Article

And in Georgia:

"The boot camps were an example of playing to the crowd rather than doing something that worked," said Stephen Bright, director of the Atlanta-based Southern Center for Human Rights. "Gov. Miller talked about how good it was for him to have been a Marine on Parris Island, but from what we saw of Georgia's boot camps, they did more harm than good."

Macon Telegraph Article

[Craig Read]

Well in Ontario only 30 % of boot campers reoffended vs. 75 % of non-bootcampers. In Nevada, boot camps are used quite effectively to retrain criminals of all stripes and the reoffend rate is negligeable.

The Liberal media has this one wrong as well, boot camps offer training, discipline and a tangible sense of shame for wrong doing.

They sure beat the Club Meds in the Prisons that we have today.

[KrustyKidd]

The problem with Boot Camps is that they do not do any follow up. After completion, the inmates are either released into the common prison system or released into society. On their own, with no disipline they go back to what they were before. That is the failure, pure and simple. In some Boot Camps, they don't recieve Drug and Alcohol rehabilitation that normal inmates get and thereby set them at a serious disadvantage for long term rehabilitation.

To society, it looked pretty good. However, dollars and cents command. With the drop out rate it leaves open beds, and that is money that could be spend elsewhere. Much as we all like to see 'cons getting screamed at' as one article quoted, if it isn't doing any good in present form then get rid of it or change it.

I suggest that it be kept as a bonus for good behaviour. Upon completion at the end of a good service record, a con can go on this course and then be given a discharge with a bit of time shaved off under the condition that he serve Military time. If he leaves the Forces then he serves the remainder back in 'The Big House.'

Of course I'm not talking about serial killers here, just the normal nickle and dime two to five year people.

[Craig Read]

Boot camps ARE cost effective. If the recidivist rate drops by half, the system pays for itself.

We are talking about a few millions here, when the health care system - bloated, ineffective, supine - wastes BILLIONS in Ontario alone. Criminality and a no tolerance policy are the best prescriptions and teaching discipline and hard work is necessary for young offenders.

[Michael Hardner]

Read the article on Georgia. Boot Camps were a right-wing feel-good issue that didn't work.

[Craig Read]

Read the articles on boot camps elsewhere including Ontario. The DID work. The recidivism fell by over half. The plans paid for themselves. It depends on how you implement them and the details of the work involved. Common sense tells us that of course they would work - what Club Med Fed would be better ? No chance.

State of Kansas 2003 research summary:

The boot camp program has shown to be as effective as traditional programs when looking at the recidivism rate. Recidivism, accompanied by the lower cost, will make juvenile boot camps the better alternative in the future. Research has shown that with more time spent on aftercare, recidivism rates would decline, making juvenile boot camps that much more appealing.

[daniel]

Those of us who have learned from the past recognize that what policians state as common sense is just simplemindedness supported only by biased studies of lobby groups.

The only thing kids learn from boot camps is how to be better criminals.

At $80K per year to incarcerate someone, it would be cheaper just to hand over (say) $30K per year and ask him to stay out of trouble. Or even to invest in programs to prevent the kids from entering into a life of crime to begin with. But when the private correctional institutions need to earn their living, they are the only ones in our society who benefit from the way our system turns our kids into career criminals.

[theloniusfleabag]

I say make all prisons 'boot camps'. Run by the military (god knows they could use an excuse for a budget increase), they would be a boon to both society and the criminals themselves...no drugs allowed (that is, brought in by the guards) and only those that 'qualify' could be released early. Make it so that none of them want to go back...

[BHS]

Those of us who have learned from the past recognize that what policians state as common sense is just simplemindedness supported only by biased studies of lobby groups.

The only thing kids learn from boot camps is how to be better criminals.

At $80K per year to incarcerate someone, it would be cheaper just to hand over (say) $30K per year and ask him to stay out of trouble.  Or even to invest in programs to prevent the kids from entering into a life of crime to begin with.  But when the private correctional institutions need to earn their living, they are the only ones in our society who benefit from the way our system turns our kids into career criminals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have got to be joking. A guaranteed income awarded by the state for committing crime? How many stores do I have to rob to get that, because I'm soooo there. (You see how a crime prevention scheme that involves handing out cash to criminals kind of falls apart, eh? No? Oh well.)

Platitudes about social programs aside, how do you propose to prevent criminal activity without curbing ever civil liberty that a person has?

[BHS]

PS,

Michael Hardner:

It appears you haven't been posting here in a while and have only recently returned. For your future edification, there is an unwritten list of words and phrases which have been deemed intolerable by the forum's administration. One of these phrases, I happen to know from experience, is "loony left". Though it seems fairly innocuous and is used commonly by both the left and right across the web and the MSM, it apparently finds offence with a certain segment of this forum's membership. Just so you know. (I'll probably get a PM just for quoting you.)

[kimmy]

The messages you replied to were 2 years old. Michael Hardner has not visited the forum in 6 months. I don't see much point in picking a fight with people who aren't even here.

But yeah: giving people $30,000 a year if they commit crimes has to be one of the all time stupid ideas ever conceived.

-k

[BHS]

The messages you replied to were 2 years old.  Michael Hardner has not visited the forum in 6 months.  I don't see much point in picking a fight with people who aren't even here.

But yeah: giving people $30,000 a year if they commit crimes has to be one of the all time stupid ideas ever conceived.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't an attempt to pick a fight. It was an attempt to poke fun at the arbitrary way that the rules are enforced, rules that my post (hopefully) indicates that I disagree with, at least in some cases. I didn't care who posted it or when. But you're right, I should have looked at the posting date.

[plusgood]

The idea of boot camp seems to make complete sense to me. It's a real chance at rehabilitation, something that if done successfully will be far more cost-effective in the long run if it means a lower re-offending rate. Prisons, while offering to shelter the public from criminals and offering a deterant to potential criminals, are also a hotbed of networks for future criminals. The immates can be further criminlized in the system simply on the basis of the company they are keeping. Why not keep first-time offenders and young criminals out of institutions that can criminalize them for life?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear kimmy,

The messages you replied to were 2 years old.

Yes, I know. I was looking through the 'member's last clicks' and a 'guest' was viewing this topic, so I clicked on it. I thought it interesting enough to bring forward.

[Yodeler]

The messages you replied to were 2 years old.  Michael Hardner has not visited the forum in 6 months.  -k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember MH from when I went through my apprenticeship at NPWBN.

Never liked the man much, but I must say one thing ... he was always at his very best at federal election times. We even had a saying about him that evolved from those times, I think ... "When Michael Hardner speaks people listen." And from his reviews of Hollywood movies, of course. And car races, etc. etc. etc..

I bet you he's itching to come out, now that the big federal election is upon us.

From what I remember he's a bit of a ditherer, but he always came out ahead at election times.

He wouldn't predict a clear Conservative majority though, so this is the perfect time for us NPWBN losers to show him what it FEELS like to be at the losing end.

So I hope he comes out.

[Melanie_]

I say make all prisons 'boot camps'. Run by the military (god knows they could use an excuse for a budget increase), they would be a boon to both society and the criminals themselves...no drugs allowed (that is, brought in by the guards) and only those that 'qualify' could be released early. Make it so that none of them want to go back...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From boot camps to this...

I'm not sure if this was a federal initiative or just here in Manitoba, but there is a proposal to have professional tattoos available in prison for a cost of $5.00. This is to prevent prisoners from getting unsafe, homemade tattoos while they are doing time. It seems to me that they are making a choice if they get an unsafe tattoo - the taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for it.

[BHS]

I say make all prisons 'boot camps'. Run by the military (god knows they could use an excuse for a budget increase), they would be a boon to both society and the criminals themselves...no drugs allowed (that is, brought in by the guards) and only those that 'qualify' could be released early. Make it so that none of them want to go back...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From boot camps to this...

I'm not sure if this was a federal initiative or just here in Manitoba, but there is a proposal to have professional tattoos available in prison for a cost of $5.00. This is to prevent prisoners from getting unsafe, homemade tattoos while they are doing time. It seems to me that they are making a choice if they get an unsafe tattoo - the taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to highjack, but this is of exactly the same mind as giving junkies a million dollar shooting gallery in Vancouver, or the current push in that city to legalize prostitution. It's a tacit acknowledgement by people being paid to prevent criminal activity, that the situation is beyond their control.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dera BHS,

Not to highjack, but this is of exactly the same mind as giving junkies a million dollar shooting gallery in Vancouver, or the current push in that city to legalize prostitution.

Prostitution is 'the world's oldest profession', and I think it is time to address the issue in a different way. That said, however, I do not feel the same way about heroin. Doing nothing (the status quo) is better than abetting addictions, at least on the taxpayers dime (or dimebag).

[Biblio Bibuli]

He wouldn't predict a clear Conservative majority though, so this is the perfect time for us NPWBN losers to show him what it FEELS like to be at the losing end.

Congratulations NPWBNers ........... YOU WON !!!!