More Fun in Lebanon

[Rue]

Fatah al-Islam is led by Shaker Abssi a former air force pilot (colonel) born in Jericho in 1955. He has admitted having ties to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian born leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq who was killed by the US Army in Iraq. What is known is Abssi was arrested and jailed in Syria from 2003-2006. The Syrians claim they have a new outstanding warrant for his arrest.

Then again Syria denies backing Fatah al-Islam so its claim it wants him arrested appears to be a cover story to distance itself from the group.

It is also known that in 2004, a Jordanian court sentenced Abssi to death in absentia for the murder of American diplomat Laurence Foley,in Amman, Jordan in 2002.

Abssi also has an alias, Abu Yussef.

While Fatah al-Islam’s ideology is militant and fundamentalist, it is Sunni not Shiite so it is not linked to Hezbollah nor has there been any proof it has links to al-Qaeda directly although its ideology sounds the same.

Fatah al-Islam has been accused by the Lebanese government of bombing a bus in a Christian area of Beirut in February, of 2007, killing 3.

Interestingly Al-Abssi was first involved in another terrorist cell, Fatah Al-Intifada, sponsored and organized and operating out of Libya and it split from Al Fatah in 1983. Al-Abssi wentto Damascus from Tripoli, Libya where he joined forces with another terrorist Abu Khaled al-Omla.

In November of 2006, Al Abssi set up operations in the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp in Lebanon now the scene of fighting which has seen 79 die so far. In fact this terrorist cell forcefully took over three areas of the camp that were controlled by Fatah al-Intifada.

Intelligence journals report the size of Fatah-Al Islam to be about 200, of which 6 are Palestinians and the rest being Syrians, Saudi Arabians and Iraqis. There are believed to be 50 Lebanese non Palestinians in this cell.

The Lebanese daily newspaper Al Hayat ran a story stating that Fatah al-Islam is run by Syrian military officers.

No doubt if they are captured this will come out.

[scribblet]

The Palestinian terrorists are saying they're ready to die as martyrs - well hey no problem there folks.

ttp://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=82522

A spokesman for the Fatah al-Islam militant group said that members of the group were "ready to die" as the Lebanese Army resumed shelling of militant positions Thursday evening, ending a truce that had largely held since Tuesday afternoon. "We are ready to die," Abu Salim Taha told The Daily Star in a telephone interview."

find it remarkable an Arab army can shell a refugee camp and without provoking the usual screams of hysteria from the media - too bad they don't give the same leeway to Israel and western armies when they fight similar terrorist groups.

The Lebanese army is saying ' your wish is my command' LOL the army has it right: " We hold Fatah al-Islam responsible for everything that ... might take place if it resumes attacks on our positions and continues to use Palestinian civilians as human shields,"

Still wondering if Hezbollah is going to stay out of it or at some point take advantage of the situation.

[Higgly]

For the record the persons in the refugee camps were NOT displaced from the War of Independence. They are third generation Palestinians. The choice to not allow them citizenship in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any of the other Arab League nations is not the fault of Israel as Higgly of course infers.

Apparently if your grandparents were displaced and made refugee by the Israeli "War of Independence" (snort), then you should just go somewhere else and beg for citizenship, even though you were poor before you left and have nothing now, and most likely lived one of the shortest lifespans on the globe. However, if your grandparents were murdered, their bank accounts seized and handed over, and their artworks sold to the highest bidder, you have a legitimate grievance. Is that not correct, thieving murderous baby-killer?

[scribblet]

For the record the persons in the refugee . However, if your grandparents were murdered, their bank accounts seized and handed over, and their artworks sold to the highest bidder, you have a legitimate grievance. Is that not correct, thieving murderous baby-killer?

Who are you referring to as a thieving murderous baby-killer?

I just read but havn't confirmed it, that "A senior Lebanese official, speaking on condition of anonymity has said that Hizbullah started building a new set of bunker systems, this time in Palestinian refugee camps.

"The Lebanese Army doesn't have the authority to patrol inside the camps," said the official. "Hizbullah knows it is safe there to rebuild their war bunkers, and they began doing so with Iranian help."

[Higgly]

For the record the persons in the refugee . However, if your grandparents were murdered, their bank accounts seized and handed over, and their artworks sold to the highest bidder, you have a legitimate grievance. Is that not correct, thieving murderous baby-killer?

You have merged Rue spew with my post. Anybody reading scriblett's post should refer to the previous posts by the thieving murderous baby killer and myself, rather than to trust scriblett's scribbles.

[Argus]

For the record the persons in the refugee camps were NOT displaced from the War of Independence. They are third generation Palestinians. The choice to not allow them citizenship in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any of the other Arab League nations is not the fault of Israel as Higgly of course infers.

Apparently if your grandparents were displaced and made refugee by the Israeli "War of Independence" (snort), then you should just go somewhere else and beg for citizenship, even though you were poor before you left and have nothing now, and most li

So Higgly, would you agree that all refugees who come to Canada should be kept in refugee camps - permanently, including their kids and grandkids?

[Higgly]

So Higgly, would you agree that all refugees who come to Canada should be kept in refugee camps - permanently, including their kids and grandkids?

I'm having trouble remembering Argus, but perhaps you can refresh my memory. When was the last time Canada had a flood of hundreds of thousands or millions of refugees come flooding in over the border completely uncontrolled, as a result of a major war of displacement taking place a stone's throw away? How did we deal with that when it happened? Refresh my memory.

[Higgly]

Well, this certainly illustrates why so many Arab nations want the Palestinians to go home.......and what happens to nations that allow people to form their own shadow govts and security (AKA Militias and kangaroo courts)

Apparently you're not bothering to keep up with the news. Palestinians in that refugee camp are leaving to get away from the militants who have installed themselves. The Palestinians have publicly said they do not support these militants.

[Argus]

So Higgly, would you agree that all refugees who come to Canada should be kept in refugee camps - permanently, including their kids and grandkids?

I'm having trouble remembering Argus, but perhaps you can refresh my memory. When was the last time Canada had a flood of hundreds of thousands or millions of refugees come flooding in over the border completely uncontrolled, as a result of a major war of displacement taking place a stone's throw away? How did we deal with that when it happened? Refresh my memory.

That would be after the American revolution. We dealt with it by making them citizens. Although I'm sure we also took in massive numbers of refugees during and after WW2.

We continue to get tens of thousands of refugees each year. Should they be kept in refugee camps forever? Yes or no? Answer the question. What do you have to say on the subject of the morality of not giving citizenship to people who were born in this country, whose parents and grandparents were born here?

[scribblet]

Higgly blustered : "However, if your grandparents were murdered, their bank accounts seized and handed over, and their artworks sold to the highest bidder, you have a legitimate grievance. Is that not correct, thieving murderous baby-killer?"

To whom are you referring as a thieving murderous baby-killer and how does it add to the fun in Lebanon ?

[M.Dancer]

Well, this certainly illustrates why so many Arab nations want the Palestinians to go home.......and what happens to nations that allow people to form their own shadow govts and security (AKA Militias and kangaroo courts)

Apparently you're not bothering to keep up with the news. Palestinians in that refugee camp are leaving to get away from the militants who have installed themselves. The Palestinians have publicly said they do not support these militants.

So the militants aren't Palestrinians too? Who allowed these non palestinians to arm themselves and set up a parellel authority?

And on a related note, who doesn't allow palestinains to become permant citizens?

[M.Dancer]

For the record the persons in the refugee camps were NOT displaced from the War of Independence. They are third generation Palestinians. The choice to not allow them citizenship in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any of the other Arab League nations is not the fault of Israel as Higgly of course infers.

Apparently if your grandparents were displaced and made refugee by the Israeli "War of Independence" (snort), then you should just go somewhere else and beg for citizenship, even though you were poor before you left and have nothing now, and most li

So Higgly, would you agree that all refugees who come to Canada should be kept in refugee camps - permanently, including their kids and grandkids?

A brilliant way to populate the Yukon.....

[kuzadd]

Seymour Hersh: U.S. Indirectly Backed Islamist Militants Fighting Lebanese Army

Islamist militants entrenched in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon are facing an ultimatum to surrender or face further military action. The Lebanese government accuses Fatah al-Islam of having ties with al-Qaeda and the Syrian government. Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh joins us to talk about another theory of who is backing the militant group - the Lebanese government itself, along with the United States. Last March, Hersh reported the U.S. and Saudi governments are covertly backing militant Sunni groups like Fatah al-Islam as part of an overarching foreign policy against Iran and growing Shia influence.

partial transcript of an interview:

SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, very simply -- this is over the winter -- the government made -- I think the article is called “The Redirection.” There was a major change of policy by the United States government, essentially, which was that we were going to -- the American government would join with the Brits and other Western allies and with what we call the moderate Sunni governments -- that is, the governments of Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt -- and join with them and with Israel to fight the Shia.

One of the major goals for America, of course, was the obsession the Bush White House has with Iran, and the other obsession they have is, of course -- is in fear -- is of Hezbollah, the Party of God, that is so dominant in -- the Shia Party of God that’s so dominant in southern Lebanon that once -- and whose leader Hassan Nasrallah wants to play a bigger political role and is doing quite a bit to get there and is in direct confrontation with Siniora.

And so, you have a situation where the Sunni government, pretty much in control now, the American-supported Sunni government headed by Fouad Siniora, who was a deputy or an aide to Rafik Hariri, the slain leader of Lebanon, that government has -- we know, the International Crisis Group reported a couple years ago that the son Saad Hariri, the son of Rafik Hariri, who’s now a major player in the parliament of Lebanon, he put up $40,000 bail to free four Sunni fundamentalists, Jihadist-Salafists -- which you will -- who were tied directly to -- you know, this word “al-Qaeda” is sort of ridiculous -- they were tied to jihadist groups. And God knows, al-Qaeda, in terms of Osama bin Laden, doesn’t have much to do with what we’re talking about. These are independently, more or less, you can call them, fanatical jihadists.

And so, the goal -- part of the goal in Lebanon, part of the way this policy played out, was, with Saudi help, Prince Bandar -- if you remember him -- we remember Prince Bandar, the Saudi prince, as a major player in Iran-Contra and also in the American effort two decades ago -- if you remember, we supported Osama bin Laden and other jihadists in Afghanistan against the Russians, and that didn’t work out so well. Well, we run right back to the well again, and we began supporting some of these jihadist groups, and particularly -- in the article, I did name Fatah al-Islam.

The idea was to provide them with some arms and some money and some basic equipment so -- these are small units, a couple hundred people. There were three or four around the country given the same help covertly, the goal being they would be potential enemies of Hezbollah in case of warfare; in case Nasrallah decided to do something physical, get kinetic, in Lebanon, the Sunni Siniora government would have some very tough guys on its side, period. That’s the policy.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, Sy Hersh, if that is true, then what has led to the current fighting now? If the Lebanese government had been backing the group, why is it now attacking it?

SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, first of all, the Lebanese army is very distinct. Let me begin by saying nobody really knows anything right now. I mean, there’s a lot -- one of the things about crises is you learn that you really get to play much later. But based on common sense and what I’m reading, the Lebanese army has maintained an amazing sort of neutrality, which is surprising. The army has not been a pawn of the Siniora government.

As you know, the American government -- the American position right now -- there’s a stand-off politically. You cannot discuss what’s going on without discussing the overall politics. There’s a stand-off politically right now, a very serious one, in Lebanon. The government is polarized. The government in power really has no legal basis to make any changes in cabinet positions, etc., because it’s not a constitutional government, because Hezbollah, which had five members of the parliament -- five members of the cabinet and a dozen or so members in the parliament, Hezbollah pulled out months ago. And there were street protests, protests against Siniora. And right now, you have Hezbollah in league with a Christian leader named Aoun, a former chief of staff for the army. Aoun and Nasrallah are in an amazing partnership against the Siniora government. And where this breaks down and who’s going to win this stand-off -- it’s been going on since last December -- isn’t clear. America clearly supports Siniora. But there’s a big brutal fight going. And the Lebanese army stayed out of it and was pretty much, very much, independent, in the sense that when there were street demonstrations, they did not beat up on the Nasrallah people. They were very impartial.

So I think the story that we have is that there was a crime, and they were chasing people into one of the Palestinian camps, which are always hotbeds. God knows the Palestinians are the end of the stick, not only for the West, but also for the Arab world. Nobody pays much attention to them and those places. I’ve been to Tripoli and been into the camps, and they are seething, as they should be. You know, rational people don’t like being mistreated. And in any case, so what you have is, what seems to me, just a series -- the word you could use is “unintended consequences.” I don’t think anybody in the Siniora government anticipated that the people they were covertly supporting to some degree -- I got an email the other day, and I have not checked this out, from somebody who was in the community, in the intelligence community and still consults with the community, he says, “Why don’t we ask more about the American arms that the fighters of Fatah al-Islam have, are brandishing?” I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I did get that email. And so, that could be true. Both Saudi money and American money, not directly, but indirectly, was fed into these groups.

And what is the laugh riot and the reason I’m actually talking to you guys about this -- I usually don’t like to do interviews unless I have a story in The New Yorker -- the reason I’m talking about it is because the American government keeps on putting out this story that Syria is behind the Fatah group, which is just beyond belief. There’s no way -- it may be possible, but the chances of it are very slight, simply because Syria is a very big supporter, obviously, of Nasrallah, and Bashar al-Assad has told me that he’s in awe of Nasrallah, that he worships at his feet and has great respect for him. The idea that the Syrians would be sponsoring Sunni jihadist groups whose sole mission are to kill the apostates -- that is, anybody who doesn’t support their view, the Wahhabi or Salafist view of Sunni religion -- that includes the Shia -- anybody who doesn’t believe -- support these guys’ religions are apostates and are killable, that’s basically one of the crazy aspects of all this, and it’s just inconceivable. Nothing can be ruled out, but that doesn’t make much case, and I noticed that in the papers today there’s fewer and fewer references to this. The newspapers in America are beginning to wise up, that this can’t be -- this isn’t very logical. The White House is putting it out hot and heavy as part of the anti-Syria campaign, but it’s not flying, because it doesn’t make sense. So there we are. It’s another mess.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/24/143208

listen here!

[Higgly]

That would be after the American revolution. We dealt with it by making them citizens. Although I'm sure we also took in massive numbers of refugees during and after WW2.

We continue to get tens of thousands of refugees each year. Should they be kept in refugee camps forever? Yes or no? Answer the question. What do you have to say on the subject of the morality of not giving citizenship to people who were born in this country, whose parents and grandparents were born here?

Really? Were we a country during the American Revolution? Now that's a revelation. What kind of citizenship were we offering then? Do you have a cite for that?

We get tens of thousands of refugeees every year? Well why not put it in perspetive? At the time of Israel's War of Independence the populations of Lebanon and Jordan were a couple of million. Both countries, but especially Jordan, were very poor agrarian societies. Each had hundreds of thousands of refugees come fleeing across its borders. So instead of using a number like tens of thousands, Argus, why not consider something of equivalent scale? How do you think we would react if 6 million refugees came flooding across the border in the space of a month? Would we make them all citizens? Or would we do like Australia has done and build refugee camps.

Further Argus, you need to consider the economics of refugee influxes. Neither Jordan nor Lebanon could afford to suddenly absorb such a huge inflow of penniless hordes. However, if they were housed in refugee camps, the UNHCR would provide, as it has been doing ever since.

And finally, Argus, keep in mind that the Palestinian refugees do not consider that they need citizenship of their host countries. They already have a homeland.

This is a trick used so often by Israel's supporters. The Palestinian refugee problem is not Israel's problem, even though these poor souls were made homeless by the very creation of the state of Israel and the actions of Zionist fighters from the Hagganah, the Irgun, what have you - specifically at the request of David Ben Gurion. No, no. It's all the Arabs fault!

[buffycat]

Thank you Higgly, I saw this post this am and have only now had some time to devote to the forum - you took the words right out of my mouth.

This is something which is often overlooked - the relatives sizes of the populations and the arable lands plus water supplies available. The overwhelming number of refugees driven out of their homes - either by gunpoint or sheer terror were huge in terms of the host populations, who were, as you so well point out, not in a position of 'wealth' either.

Your comparison to 6,000,000 coming into Canada in a short space of time is a good one. It reminded me of Germany in the eighties. What else can a country do other than to set up camps, when an inundation of such a magnitude occurs?

(I do realise the difference between Germany and Lebanon though wrt the ethnicity of the individuals involved - it just made me remember that situation as I was living there at the time and it was a difficult one - wrought with many opinions)

Ta for the great post - you saved me time!

[scribblet]

Jonathan Kay makes a good point about the general feelings by Arabs about Palestinians,

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...da-93476ff79799

How did the rest of the world react? The Arab League quickly condemned "the criminal and terrorist acts carried out by the terrorist group known as Fatah al-Islam," and vowed to "give its full support to the efforts of the army and the Lebanese government." EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana also condemned Fatah al-Islam, and declared Europe's "support" for Lebanon. And the UN Security Council called the actions of Fatah al-Islam "an unacceptable attack" on Lebanon's sovereignty. As for the Western media, most outlets ignored the story following the first flurry of news reports.

At this point, please indulge me by re-reading the first paragraph of this column -- except this time, substitute the world "Israeli" for "Lebanese" in the first sentence. Let's imagine what the world's reaction would be if the ongoing siege were taking place in Gaza or the West Bank instead of the Nahr al Bared refugee camp on the outskirts of Tripoli, Lebanon.

-snip-

"For years, we have been told that Palestinian suffering and "humiliation" is at the root of the Middle East conflict, as well as the Western-Muslim clash of civilizations more generally. This is nonsense: The 200,000-plus Palestinian refugees who live in Lebanese camps are treated worse than dogs -- with no access to decent schools or good jobs -- and no one in the Arab world cares a whit. In fact, many Arabs seem to embrace the same blind anti-Palestinian hatred of which Israel is typically accused. When Lebanese armoured personnel carriers rolled through Tripoli on May 20, they got a standing ovation from local residents. "We wish the government would destroy the whole camp and the rest of the camps," one local told The New York Times. "Nothing good comes out of the Palestinians."