Giuliani to Paul: 'Take back' 9/11 comments

margrace · May 20, 2007

In the past fifty years, can you name me any Middle Eastern country that has experienced long-term freedom and security as a result of American military occupations or operations (such as special forces) in any part of the world?

Certainly if we tell them we are coming to help them, you can provide one example where things have gotten substantially and irrefutably better on a national scale.

I can name several.....but Saudi Arabia will suffice. More recent examples include Bahrain, Qatar, and UAE (Dubai). It's a tough neighborhood.

Saudi Arabia, you have to be kidding, not much different than Natzi Germany and what did the US do for them other than buy their oil?

bush_cheney2004 · May 20, 2007

Saudi Arabia, you have to be kidding, not much different than Natzi Germany and what did the US do for them other than buy their oil?

"Natzi Germany"? Or WW2 Canada/US with internment camps? Or how about a nice Chinese head/poll tax? Or maybe segregation in the USA? Or capital punishment in Canada and America? Or maybe some domestic violence against women...hell...they couldn't vote until 1920! Polluted water for First Nations, wars and conscription to preserve the Commonwealth, slavery, yada, yada, yada.

Yet we still called it "FREEDOM"....eh?

(Do some homework on US and coalition military operations in Saudi Arabia and surrounding region.)

eXploiTeD · May 20, 2007

I can name several.....but Saudi Arabia will suffice. More recent examples include Bahrain, Qatar, and UAE (Dubai). It's a tough neighborhood.

I can only assume you're joking.

Saudi Arabia is one of the most brutal regimes on earth:

Saudi courts continued to impose corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and floggings for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. The number of lashes was not clearly prescribed by law and varied according to the discretion of judges, and ranged from dozens of lashes to several thousand, usually applied over a period of weeks or months. A court in Qunfuda sentenced nine Saudi alleged transvestites in April. Five drew prison terms of six years and 2,600 lashes, and the other four were sentenced to five years and 2,400 lashes. The floggings reportedly were to be carried out in fifty equal sessions, with a fifteen-day hiatus between each punishment. In August, the daily Okaz reported that a court had ordered the surgical removal of the left eye of an Egyptian, Abd al-Muti Abdel Rahman Muhamed, after he was convicted of throwing acid in the face of another Egyptian, injuring and disfiguring his left eye. The operation was performed in a hospital in Medina. In addition to this punishment, Abdel Rahman was reportedly fined U.S. $68,800 and sentenced to an undisclosed prison term.

Regional authorities continued to urge extrajudicial floggings by police of teenage boys suspected of “immoral” behaviour; scores of teenage boys were flogged during the year.
* Fifteen boys suspected of “flirting and bothering” families in a park in Taif in August were flogged. According to one press report, “the youths were given 15 lashes each inside the park” by police immediately after they caught them.

Flogging remained a routine corporal punishment handed down by courts as a main or additional sentence.

* A woman was sentenced to 65 lashes in addition to six months’ imprisonment in February. She was convicted of having committed adultery with her sister’s husband, despite having reportedly claimed before the court that he had raped her. The man was sentenced to 4,700 lashes and six years’ imprisonment.

A woman in Bahrain was left without adequate housing after police failed to prosecute her husband for beating and threatening her. Married at the age of 19, she remained silent about the abuse for several years because she knew she was expected to put up with the violence. When she did finally ask for a divorce, her husband assaulted her so severely she was hospitalized for 10 days. Despite her extensive injuries, the police took no action against her husband.
"I have been working for two years and two months, but have not been paid a penny", a domestic worker from Indonesia told Amnesty International after she was imprisoned in Qatar. "When I told my employer I would complain to the police, she immediately took me to the police. I was detained for three days before they brought me to prison. I have been to court six times. I have no lawyer and don't know what is happening. No one has visited me."

Two women, one from India, the other from Indonesia, were each sentenced to one year's imprisonment and 100 lashes in Ras al-Khaimah Emirate, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), for becoming pregnant outside marriage. The men responsible for their pregnancies were not arrested or charged with any offence.

"Freedom of religion does not exist," the U.S. State Department's 1997 Human Rights Report on Saudi Arabia states. "Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The government prohibits the public practice of other religions."

As for Bahrain, it has been successful precisely because military force was kept to a minimum:

Oil was discovered in 1932 and brought rapid modernization and improvements to Bahrain. Bahrain was actually the first place to find oil in the whole region. It also made relations with the United Kingdom closer, evidenced by the British moving more bases to the island nation. British influence would continue to grow as the country developed, culminating with the appointment of Charles Belgrave as an advisor; Belgrave established modern education systems in Bahrain.
After World War II, increasing anti-British sentiment spread throughout the Arab world and led to riots in Bahrain. In 1960, the United Kingdom put Bahrain's future to international arbitration and requested that the United Nations Secretary-General take on this responsibility. In 1970, Iran simultaneously laid claim to both Bahrain and the other Arabic Gulf islands. However in an agreement with the United Kingdom it agreed to "not pursue" its irredentist claims on Bahrain if its other claims were realised. The following plebiscite saw Bahrainis confirm their independence from Britain and their Arab identity. Bahrain to this day remains a member of the Arab League and Gulf Cooperation Council.

Qatar has much the same story. The British resolved a dispute between Bahrain and Qatar by negotiating with the two countries and recognizing their status as independent peoples. They used diplomacy and made incentives for peace. Now, it's the 11th richest country in the world (per capita), and definitely one of the most advanced Muslim societies ever. The UAE is another diplomatic success story.

It just goes to show a simple truth: America, and the West, are at their greatest when they lead by example. The United States is blessed with the ability to be a truly isolationist nation, free from Old World squabbles... and this, I think, is North America's greatest blessing of all. Americans need to learn how to react to the world with something other than fear.

If the United States decided to spend $600 billion per year buying food for starving Africans and Middle Eastern people, just how different do you think our relationship would be?

bush_cheney2004 · May 20, 2007

I can only assume you're joking.
Saudi Arabia is one of the most brutal regimes on earth:

It was your question...not mine. They can define Freedom any way they want to, just like we do. Throughout their history, America (and Canada) have defined "Freedom" under conditions far harsher than that. Just ask the First Nations. Indeed, America now has over 2,000,000 incarcerated in local, state, and federal prisons. Capital punishment is alive and well. How many Iraqis has Saudi killed compared to the West?

It just goes to show a simple truth: America, and the West, are at their greatest when they lead by example. The United States is blessed with the ability to be a truly isolationist nation, free from Old World squabbles... and this, I think, is North America's greatest blessing of all. Americans need to learn how to react to the world with something other than fear.
If the United States decided to spend $600 billion per year buying food for starving Africans and Middle Eastern people, just how different do you think our relationship would be?

Nonsense....the leadership by example has been with the tip of a spear. "Iron fist in a velvet glove." "Walk softly and carry a big stick." Many billions have been spent on Africa and the Middle East in the way of economic, military, and humanitarian aid.

The US has also invested many billions in forward projection of military force from Israel to Diego Garcia. Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia have pemitted the US presence at various times.

The US also financed those "Old World Squabbles" after WW2 with the Marshall Plan for selfish Cold War reasons. Nobody gave a damn when Sub-Saharan Africans died unless the commies were in play.

GostHacked · May 20, 2007

Bush Cheyney

Why Saudi Arabia? Can you explain why you are using this as an example?

bush_cheney2004 · May 20, 2007

Bush Cheyney
Why Saudi Arabia? Can you explain why you are using this as an example?

Because the question was:

"can you name me any Middle Eastern country that has experienced long-term freedom and security as a result of American military occupations or operations (such as special forces) in any part of the world?"

For the past fifty years, indeed post WW2, the Saudis have enjoyed lavish treatment in such matters in American foreign policy, for obvious reasons [Aramco - Saud - Faisal]. The Shah's Iran also received such policy favors, even as Israel's interests had to be balanced in the mix, but alas, Iran booted the American carpetbaggers out for the smell of Iraqi gas shells instead.

".....the defense of Saudi Arabia is vital to the defense of the United States." - FDR

Protests about the quality of "freedom" in the Saudi kingdom are quickly dispatched with numerous citations of historical American or Canadian versions of "freedom" as a non-white, non-male, non-landowner.

Some cited American foreign policy as "isolationist", even as it ran roughshod over the Americas for more than 100 years. US gunboats extended as far as China, partaking in the Commonwealth's last gasp at empire.