Canadian Wheat Board

[AngusThermopyle]

Let's see: 57% in the last poll with majority support in Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. That poll was this month.

Now this I find very hard to believe. As has been mentioned by Alta4ever, around these parts the farmers would string every member of the Wheat Board up from the nearest tree given the chance.

Polls are really not all that usefull as they can be manipulated through various means to produce the results required by those commissioning the poll.

[jdobbin]

Now this I find very hard to believe. As has been mentioned by Alta4ever, around these parts the farmers would string every member of the Wheat Board up from the nearest tree given the chance.

Well, if you are in Alberta, support for the Wheat Board as sole wheat marketer is 42% versus 53% for open. I was incorrect that it was a majority in each province this poll. The last poll was higher for support in Alberta. Support in Manitoba and especially Saskatchewan is still high.

http://www.cwb.ca/public/en/farmers/survey...full_060608.pdf

Polls are really not all that usefull as they can be manipulated through various means to produce the results required by those commissioning the poll.

Ad yet the Tories were going to act based on their poll.

Edited June 23, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

In your poll how many of the farmers asked were still active grain and barley producers? Did they take an acuate sample? Since when does a monopoly need to advocate itself if there is no choice. Why is grain shipped straight to the port charged for freight to winnipeg then to the port? Why do grain farmers in eastern canada not have to be brought under state control?

The poll is for farmers who actively market through the Wheat Board. It is a reputable polling agency

http://www.cwb.ca/public/en/farmers/survey...full_060608.pdf

What does a government need to squelch free speech from what they say is a farmer represented Crown?

We live in a free market economy capitalist economy, the government has no business taking away the farmers property for less then market value.

It doesn't.

There was nothing in the budget about it was there?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Barley was voted out majority rule, enough said.

Really. Other polls say differently.

more then two thirds wanted barly out completely or marketing choice. It was a very simiple question and choice. Farmers deserve market choice, since they take all the risk, produced the crop they deserve to own the crop, and the last say in how to market it.

It wasn't a simple question. In fact, other polling companies said it was an unfair poll.

[jdobbin]

Polls really only reflect the questions asked we do not know the questions ask on this one. We do know what was nasked on the pleblisite, and those results were very telling.

The poll the government commissioned was not a straight forward poll and that is quite telling.

Many people believed it was manipulated in its wording and a few polling experts commented on that.

As far as seeing farmers, I've seen quite a few well attended protests in Manitoba is support. When is the last time you were down at the CWB headquarters?

Edited June 23, 2008 by jdobbin

[Topaz]

The poll the government commissioned was not a straight forward poll and that is quite telling.

Many people believed it was manipulated in its wording and a few polling experts commented on that.

As far as seeing farmers, I've seen quite a few well attended protests in Manitoba is support. When is the last time you were down at the CWB headquarters?

I watched the senate committee on this topic and I agree ask a simple question yes or no, do you want to WB. I have theory on this. The plan is to have Canada and the US have similar laws so if and when the NAU does happen the transfer will be easy and like everything else, everything is going gobal.

[capricorn]

The plan is to have Canada and the US have similar laws so if and when the NAU does happen the transfer will be easy and like everything else, everything is going gobal.

Looks like we're gonna be "gobaled" up.

[blueblood]

There can be no dual market under WTO rules in western Canada. The right wing knows this but won't say so. The Wheat Board for example, cannot operate in Ontario and Quebec with the open market or Canada would be subject to penalties from the WTO members. If the monopoly is lost in western Canada, the Wheat Board closes the same year. It is that simple.

The pollsters who were questioned about the government poll said that they had never seen a poll so manipulated to get the answer the government wanted.

The right wing doesn't want a fair debate on this subject. That is why they continue to do illegal actions to achieve their goal.

Wrong Canada has a dual market system. A farmer in Thunder Bay is laughing. He has no CWB pool and no rail costs. He exports his grain on the same barge as the Western people do. So do the producers from Southern Ontario. Canada has both an open market and a single desk. Even the Ontario farmers have a marketing board they can join.

The WTO is going to take trade action on Canadian grain in the middle of an oil and food crunch when Canada is one of the largest exporters. Fine, let them and watch the prices rise more to pay for their penalties.

It was a straight forward poll, No board, monopoly, or have the board compete in an open market.

[jdobbin]

Wrong Canada has a dual market system. A farmer in Thunder Bay is laughing.

A Thunder Bay farmer can market through the Wheat Board? If not, then it isn't dual market.

He has no CWB pool and no rail costs. He exports his grain on the same barge as the Western people do. So do the producers from Southern Ontario. Canada has both an open market and a single desk. Even the Ontario farmers have a marketing board they can join.

Any farmer is dreaming if they think they can have the Wheat Board in western Canada and dual marketing.

The WTO is going to take trade action on Canadian grain in the middle of an oil and food crunch when Canada is one of the largest exporters. Fine, let them and watch the prices rise more to pay for their penalties.

And watch Canada pay penalties from the U.S. on trade if the Wheat Board exists with open marketing. The only protection it has had from U.S. penalties has been the WTO allows for single desk state trading if it has a monopoly. In western Canada, there is a monopoly. Open trading and the U.S. can put duties on several critical Canadian exports. They won't have to touch wheat. They'd go after something like automobiles.

It was a straight forward poll, No board, monopoly, or have the board compete in an open market.

What a load of crap. The wording was picked apart by Probe Research that said the question was confusing and dishonest.

[Alta4ever]

The poll the government commissioned was not a straight forward poll and that is quite telling.

Many people believed it was manipulated in its wording and a few polling experts commented on that.

As far as seeing farmers, I've seen quite a few well attended protests in Manitoba is support. When is the last time you were down at the CWB headquarters?

It wasn't telling and was manipulated? You can't be serious.

Farmers were asked to select one of the following three options on the ballot.

1). The Canadian Wheat Board should retain the single desk for the marketing of barley into

domestic human consumption and export markets.

2). I would like the option to market my barley to the Canadian Wheat Board or any other

domestic or foreign buyer.

3). The Canadian Wheat Board should not have a role in the marketing of barley.

They seem pretty straight forward and simple, or do you not understand simple language. I have no doctorate but I understand what is being asked. Sounds like you have some sour grapes, and are grasping at straws. The whole i didn't understand the question argument is very childish, and always the last resort of vocal interests who think they know better then majority.

The big difference between what I support and what you support is that my poltical leanings are a bottom up approach were we the people set the policy, not a top down approach. The grassroots has asked for this and the people will prevail. Those farmers who were made criminals by the CWB in the 90's will win the battle, as they represent the majority, and bet if these three same questions were posed again the vote for option 2 would go down and the vote for option 3 would go up.

On a side note I very rarely have been asked such simple questions the ones I was asked in a provincial poll about the PC governments handling of the pine beetle was much more confusing. Each question was a paragraph long, and then was graded on a scale of one to ten. Without knowing what the questions are that are asked in the poll you quote are, we have no idea what was really being asked of the sampling and who was being sampled.

The governments plebiscite was only to barley producers, we know what the questions were and the percentage of response to each questions. There were no unknown variables, unlike the poll you quote.

I was last at the CWB in May, I saw no one there but workers, and I bet they have a vested intrest in protecting their jobs. As for plenty of farmers attending, how many did you actually talk to? Have you been to a grain elevator and talked to the farmers there? How about a farming community coffee shop have you talked to the farmers there?

How can you base your stance on this topic, by looking out a window at protestors in the street, or pictures in paper, heck how can you even undertand the issue if you aren't even talking to the people it effects. If you go by protests there was a very well attended one in Alberta against the wheat board when a few brave producers took a load of grain over the boarder. Why does that not change your opinion if all it takes to form one is watching well attended protests?

[Bryan]

Under WTO rules, a monopoly state trading enterprise can't exist in a dual market. Once the market opens up, the Wheat Board ends.

We have a dual market system right now. CWB is not a national system, it does not have jurisdiction over all Canadian wheat and barley, only the western grains.

Your constant reference to the WTO implies that CWB's only option would be to fold. No consideration is given to them just changing the way they operate. If farmers were allowed to sell their grain elsewhere, CWB would cease to be a "single desk", it would just be one available marketing option. CWB could adapt to become whatever sort of commodity broker that does follow the WTO rules.

Frankly, what I see as a much bigger issue is how the charter rights of the CWB are protected, but the rights of the western farmers to conduct their business in the same manner that those in other parts of the country are not.

[jdobbin]

We have a dual market system right now. CWB is not a national system, it does not have jurisdiction over all Canadian wheat and barley, only the western grains.

It doesn't have to under WTO rules. It just has to be the monopoly in the a jurisdiction. Once it loses that monopoly to dual market within that jurisdiction, it can legally face countervailing duties.

Look, I'm not mentioning anything new here. It just isn't mentioned by the Tories. The misconception is that western Canada can open up and that the Wheat Board remains an option. It won't.

Your constant reference to the WTO implies that CWB's only option would be to fold. No consideration is given to them just changing the way they operate. If farmers were allowed to sell their grain elsewhere, CWB would cease to be a "single desk", it would just be one available marketing option. CWB could adapt to become whatever sort of commodity broker that does follow the WTO rules.

Frankly, what I see as a much bigger issue is how the charter rights of the CWB are protected, but the rights of the western farmers to conduct their business in the same manner that those in other parts of the country are not.

57% of farmers want the Board to remain according to the latest poll. They are members of the Wheat Board and yet the government fired its president and wouldn't let the Board speak to the issue of its own demise. Moreover, the Tories three times tried to illegally end the board and were slapped down by the courts.

The Wheat Board has no assets which has already been mentioned. It could no longer remain a state trading enterprise without penalties from our trading partners.

The Tories should be honest about the prospects of the Board if they get their way on this.

[jdobbin]

It wasn't telling and was manipulated? You can't be serious.

If you knew anything about it, you would have read Probe Research's comments on how the poll was conducted. The poll was also screwed up on who was asked to fill it in.

Farmers were asked to select one of the following three options on the ballot.

1). The Canadian Wheat Board should retain the single desk for the marketing of barley into

domestic human consumption and export markets.

2). I would like the option to market my barley to the Canadian Wheat Board or any other

domestic or foreign buyer.

3). The Canadian Wheat Board should not have a role in the marketing of barley.

And the wording of those polls was set up to confuse and to get the desired response according to Probe.

The methodology of the poll was also questioned by farmers themselves.

They seem pretty straight forward and simple, or do you not understand simple language. I have no doctorate but I understand what is being asked. Sounds like you have some sour grapes, and are grasping at straws. The whole i didn't understand the question argument is very childish, and always the last resort of vocal interests who think they know better then majority.

The issues of a clear question should be important to Harper. He said on the issue of Quebec that a clear question should be asked and yet didn't do that with the Wheat Board. Moreover, he wouldn't let the farmer led Wheat Board speak out on behalf of its members.

The big difference between what I support and what you support is that my poltical leanings are a bottom up approach were we the people set the policy, not a top down approach. The grassroots has asked for this and the people will prevail. Those farmers who were made criminals by the CWB in the 90's will win the battle, as they represent the majority, and bet if these three same questions were posed again the vote for option 2 would go down and the vote for option 3 would go up.

If the Tories want to make changes, the legislation is quite clear as the courts point out. They have to do it through an act of Parliament. Why do they continue to use the backdoor? It is that simple.

On a side note I very rarely have been asked such simple questions the ones I was asked in a provincial poll about the PC governments handling of the pine beetle was much more confusing. Each question was a paragraph long, and then was graded on a scale of one to ten. Without knowing what the questions are that are asked in the poll you quote are, we have no idea what was really being asked of the sampling and who was being sampled.

You have the latest poll conducted by Gandalf. Decide for yourself if if it confusing.

The governments plebiscite was only to barley producers, we know what the questions were and the percentage of response to each questions. There were no unknown variables, unlike the poll you quote.

It wasn't only to barley farmers if you had looked that up.

I was last at the CWB in May, I saw no one there but workers, and I bet they have a vested intrest in protecting their jobs. As for plenty of farmers attending, how many did you actually talk to? Have you been to a grain elevator and talked to the farmers there? How about a farming community coffee shop have you talked to the farmers there?

I have no interest in interfering with what farmers want. I do have an interest in freedom of speech, obeying the law and following the Wheat Board Act. The Tories don't.

The poll was not simple or clear and the methodology was questioned.

How can you base your stance on this topic, by looking out a window at protestors in the street, or pictures in paper, heck how can you even undertand the issue if you aren't even talking to the people it effects. If you go by protests there was a very well attended one in Alberta against the wheat board when a few brave producers took a load of grain over the boarder. Why does that not change your opinion if all it takes to form one is watching well attended protests?

I haven't based my entire thoughts on anecdotal evidence. It is based on obeying the Wheat Board Act which the Tories seem loath to do.

This is not democracy thwarted. The federal court gave the Tories the solution: They can end the Wheat Board by introducing changes to the Act. It is in the government's hands. They can' really say that anyone has stopped them when the Act clearly states they can end the monopoly in Parliament.

Edited June 25, 2008 by jdobbin

[Bryan]

57% of farmers want the Board to remain according to the latest poll.

Loaded questions give you loaded answers.

In any honestly worded poll I've ever seen, they want it to remain, but ONLY if they still at least have the right to market their own grain.

Can you honestly say you've actually met farmers who do not at least want the right to market their own grain, even if they don't intent to act on it? I sure as heck haven't. What the CPC is doing falls directly in line with what I've heard farmers demanding for decades.

[Wild Bill]

Loaded questions give you loaded answers.

In any honestly worded poll I've ever seen, they want it to remain, but ONLY if they still at least have the right to market their own grain.

Can you honestly say you've actually met farmers who do not at least want the right to market their own grain, even if they don't intent to act on it? I sure as heck haven't. What the CPC is doing falls directly in line with what I've heard farmers demanding for decades.

You know, you might have a hard time getting a Liberal to support the prairie farmers against the CWB. After all, they don't expect to win any votes from the Prairies anyway!

Meanwhile, in downtown Toronto you can spin the situation to make the CWB the hero and Harper look bad.

And that, for a Liberal, is enough!

[Alta4ever]

If you knew anything about it, you would have read Probe Research's comments on how the poll was conducted. The poll was also screwed up on who was asked to fill it in.

And the wording of those polls was set up to confuse and to get the desired response according to Probe.

The methodology of the poll was also questioned by farmers themselves.

The issues of a clear question should be important to Harper. He said on the issue of Quebec that a clear question should be asked and yet didn't do that with the Wheat Board. Moreover, he wouldn't let the farmer led Wheat Board speak out on behalf of its members.

If the Tories want to make changes, the legislation is quite clear as the courts point out. They have to do it through an act of Parliament. Why do they continue to use the backdoor? It is that simple.

You have the latest poll conducted by Gandalf. Decide for yourself if if it confusing.

It wasn't only to barley farmers if you had looked that up.

I have no interest in interfering with what farmers want. I do have an interest in freedom of speech, obeying the law and following the Wheat Board Act. The Tories don't.

The poll was not simple or clear and the methodology was questioned.

I haven't based my entire thoughts on anecdotal evidence. It is based on obeying the Wheat Board Act which the Tories seem loath to do.

This is not democracy thwarted. The federal court gave the Tories the solution: They can end the Wheat Board by introducing changes to the Act. It is in the government's hands. They can' really say that anyone has stopped them when the Act clearly states they can end the monopoly in Parliament.

Funny that wasn't the case when rapeseeds were taken out of the board, it didn't take a parlimentary vote.

I haven't met a farmer who questioned the methodology of the poll here, again it just sounds like sour grapes.

[jdobbin]

Funny that wasn't the case when rapeseeds were taken out of the board, it didn't take a parlimentary vote.

I haven't met a farmer who questioned the methodology of the poll here, again it just sounds like sour grapes.

That's because the Act has changed since then.

Sounds like you don't meet a lot of farmers.

[jdobbin]

Loaded questions give you loaded answers.

In any honestly worded poll I've ever seen, they want it to remain, but ONLY if they still at least have the right to market their own grain.

Can you honestly say you've actually met farmers who do not at least want the right to market their own grain, even if they don't intent to act on it? I sure as heck haven't. What the CPC is doing falls directly in line with what I've heard farmers demanding for decades.

I have no problem if farmers want to market their own grain. However, there is no dual marketing. If western Canada opens up to the market, the Wheat Board will be subject to trade retaliation.

People here keep saying that there is dual marketing but willfully ignore the fact that the Wheat Board cannot operate outside of western Canada selling Ontario or Quebec grains without running counter to WTO guidelines.

Once the monopoly is gone, it is legal for the U.S. to hit Canada with trade sanctions for keeping the Board. In other words, no dual market. It will be a single market.

Any debate has to make that clear. Given the confusion here, it seems many people don't know this.

In Harper wants to make the change, he can do by changing the act through Parliament. The federal court has said this is the method to achieve his aims. So far they have tried to change things through other ways and been unsuccessful.

[jdobbin]

You know, you might have a hard time getting a Liberal to support the prairie farmers against the CWB. After all, they don't expect to win any votes from the Prairies anyway!

Harper knows that the Board remains popular, especially for Wheat or he would have introduced legislation and made it a confidence vote.

It will be controversial and a debate on the issue would probably indicate to many farmers that a opening the market essentially means no Board. It certainly isn't clear that this is what they want.

If Harper things it is a winning issue, by all means make it a confidence vote and go for it.

[CoachCartman]

Seems like some of you are forgetting,... the Harper government is trying to make it that farmers can market and sell their Barley to who ever they want....nothing to do with wheat

[jdobbin]

Seems like some of you are forgetting,... the Harper government is trying to make it that farmers can market and sell their Barley to who ever they want....nothing to do with wheat

Harper said it was a two step process. The fact that he thought he could do it by order in council was smacked down by the courts.

[blueblood]

A Thunder Bay farmer can market through the Wheat Board? If not, then it isn't dual market.

Any farmer is dreaming if they think they can have the Wheat Board in western Canada and dual marketing.

And watch Canada pay penalties from the U.S. on trade if the Wheat Board exists with open marketing. The only protection it has had from U.S. penalties has been the WTO allows for single desk state trading if it has a monopoly. In western Canada, there is a monopoly. Open trading and the U.S. can put duties on several critical Canadian exports. They won't have to touch wheat. They'd go after something like automobiles.

What a load of crap. The wording was picked apart by Probe Research that said the question was confusing and dishonest.

A Thunder Bay farmer can load up his super B and haul a load of wheat to Minneapolis, I try that and I go to jail. How is that not a dual market. Canada is a dual market. It's not dreaming it's logic, why do the Easterners not have to go through the board?

If what you are saying about Countervailing penalties is true, then we'd be paying them already because Easterners can ship grain over the border. The Dual market is here and it exists.

They don't because that would be a violation of NAFTA.

[jdobbin]

A Thunder Bay farmer can load up his super B and haul a load of wheat to Minneapolis, I try that and I go to jail. How is that not a dual market. Canada is a dual market. It's not dreaming it's logic, why do the Easterners not have to go through the board?

But he can't sell through the Wheat Board.

This is why Ontario doesn't have a dual market. They have one market: an open one.

If what you are saying about Countervailing penalties is true, then we'd be paying them already because Easterners can ship grain over the border. The Dual market is here and it exists.

They don't because that would be a violation of NAFTA.

You are still confused. Ontario does not have dual market since they can't sell to the Wheat Board.

[blueblood]

But he can't sell through the Wheat Board.

This is why Ontario doesn't have a dual market. They have one market: an open one.

You are still confused. Ontario does not have dual market since they can't sell to the Wheat Board.

I'm not confused, Canada has a dual market. Canada exports grains through the board and not through the board. Ontario does have a marketing board.

Link

What's good for Ontario should be good for Western Canada.

[jdobbin]

I'm not confused, Canada has a dual market. Canada exports grains through the board and not through the board. Ontario does have a marketing board.

Link

But not in the same jurisdiction.

We don't face countervailing duties in Ontario because the Canadian Wheat Board does not buy Ontario wheat to market it. The Ontario Wheat Board is a marketing board which is similar to things like the egg marketing board.

What's good for Ontario should be good for Western Canada.

Then you are proposing that the Canadian Wheat Board simply become a marketing board. Under WTO rules, marketing boards are only allowed in each province. It couldn't operate for all of western Canada.

Quite simply, the WTO rules don't allow for a state trading enterprise to run unless it has a monopoly.

[Wild Bill]

But not in the same jurisdiction.

We don't face countervailing duties in Ontario because the Canadian Wheat Board does not buy Ontario wheat to market it. The Ontario Wheat Board is a marketing board which is similar to things like the egg marketing board.

Then you are proposing that the Canadian Wheat Board simply become a marketing board. Under WTO rules, marketing boards are only allowed in each province. It couldn't operate for all of western Canada.

Quite simply, the WTO rules don't allow for a state trading enterprise to run unless it has a monopoly.

jdobbin, methinks you are picking at the model and ignoring the point.

Fine, you can't have a dual system within one province. Then make a question for a referendum that says :"Would you like the right to sell your wheat to anyone the same as Eastern farmers OR do you want to continue with the CWB?"

Then we could implement the result.