"Grow up!"

[Michael Bluth]

I had no sympathy for the stupid tactics of the Liberals when they were in government and used fear to guide their time in office. Nor did I support their over the top spending during the run up to the campaign.

But you still always vote for them.

And never give the Conservatives credit for anything. And never criticize the Liberals now.

[betsy]

I think you're forgetting that Charest is a Tory and the Liberal party in Quebec has both Tories and Liberals in it.

Isn't he a Liberal???? I don't know about his past....but as far as I know, he is a Liberal now. Am I wrong?

[Canuck E Stan]

I think you're forgetting that Charest is a Tory and the Liberal party in Quebec has both Tories and Liberals in it.

Isn't he a Liberal???? I don't know about his past....but as far as I know, he is a Liberal now. Am I wrong?

He was elected Progressive Conservative member of the Canadian Parliament for the riding (electoral district) of Sherbrooke in the 1984 election. From 1984 to 1986, Charest served as Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons. In 1986, at age 28, he was appointed to the Cabinet of then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney as Minister of State for Youth. He was the youngest cabinet minister in Canadian history. He was appointed Minister of State for Fitness and Amateur Sport in 1988, but had to resign from cabinet in 1990 after improperly speaking to a judge about a case regarding the Canadian Track and Field Association. He returned to cabinet as Minister of the Environment in 1991.

PC Leader

After Mulroney's retirement as PC leader and prime minister, Charest was a candidate for the leadership of the party at the 1993 Progressive Conservative leadership convention. He impressed many observers and party members, and placed a strong second to Defence Minister Kim Campbell, who had held a large lead going into the convention. Charest served as Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Industry, Science and Technology in Campbell's short-lived cabinet.

In the 1993 election, the PCs were swept from power. Only two of the party's 295 candidates were elected— Charest and Elsie Wayne. As the only surviving member of what would turn out to be the last PC Cabinet, Charest was appointed interim party leader and confirmed in the post in April 1995. Charest therefore became the first (and last) French Canadian leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada.

In the 1997 election, the Tories received 19% of the vote, winning 20 seats out of 301, mostly in Atlantic Canada. The party was back from the brink, but Charest considered the result a disappointment.

Charest

[jdobbin]

Isn't he a Liberal???? I don't know about his past....but as far as I know, he is a Liberal now. Am I wrong?

You didn't know that he has federal Tory roots and campaigns for them in federal elections? Liberals in Quebec are an amalgamation of Conservatives and Liberals for the most part.

It is like the provincial Liberals in B.C. - Basically two parties in one at the provincial level.

[jdobbin]

But you still always vote for them.

I've voted Liberal because I'm not a social Conservative.

I might have voted for Joe Clark had I been old enough to vote for him at the time.

[Michael Bluth]

I've voted Liberal because I'm not a social Conservative.

I might have voted for Joe Clark had I been old enough to vote for him at the time.

Joe Clark's red-Toryism was a reflection of the day.

He was a terrible leader with weak political instincts.

The socon faction of the Conservative Party of Canada is increasingly less influential. If you actually judged the actions of the Government instead of calling them socons who are sometimes forcing that "agenda" or "selling out their principles" as you believe them to be you would see that.

But no need for honesty or truthfulness. Hypocrisy is a great thing isn't it...

[Canuck E Stan]

But you still always vote for them.

I've voted Liberal because I'm not a social Conservative.

I might have voted for Joe Clark had I been old enough to vote for him at the time.

Not likely.

Born a Liberal,die a Liberal.

Issues fall by the wayside.

[jdobbin]

Not likely.

Born a Liberal,die a Liberal.

Issues fall by the wayside.

And you have voted other parties?

As I said, I would voted other parties if they were not so socially conservative. I don't believe in the economics of the NDP. I could consider Greens but the organization in Manitoba is a mess and I don't know where they stand. I looked into Reform when they had their convention in Winnipeg because I was interested in their western stance after the CF-18 incident. I was a little taken aback by some of the conference attendees though because really were far right of me when it came to social issues.

I was one of many people angry at Mulroney in Manitoba. We took a lot of abuse from him as prime minister.

[Canuck E Stan]

Not likely.

Born a Liberal,die a Liberal.

Issues fall by the wayside.

And you have voted other parties?

As I said, I would voter other parties if they were not so socially conservative. I don't believe in the economics of the NDP. I could consider Greens but the organization in Manitoba is a mess and I don't know where they stand. I looked into Reform when they had their convention in Winnipeg because I was interested in their western stance after the CF-18 incident. I was a little taken aback by some of conference attendees though because really were far right of me when it came to social issues.

I have voted Liberal,Conservative,Reform,Alliance. I look at the issues, not the party. I've said this before, if the Liberals were on track with issues they would get my vote, but they are not, and haven't been in my book for some time.I agree with you on the NDP, as for the Greens, a one issue party that would will never be in power.

Question: If the Tories are more like the Liberals, why wouldn't you vote for them?

[jdobbin]

I have voted Liberal,Conservative,Alliance. I look at the issues, not the party. I've said this before, if the Liberals were on track with issues they would get my vote, but they are not, and haven't been in my book for some time.I agree with you on the NDP, as for the Greens, a one issue party that would will never be in power.

Question: If the Tories are more like the Liberals, why wouldn't you vote for them?

They are like the Liberals in the cynical use of a bloated budget at election time. I couldn't stand that under the Liberals. I also can't stand the use of fear tactics in an election campaign. I am seeing these things repeated now by a party that said they would do things differently. I basically sat out the last federal election in terms of organizing. I did vote though.

The person I voted for last election was John Loewen, a former PC cabinet minister who ran as a Liberal. Our family's experience with Stephen Fletcher when he was president of the University of Manitoba students union left me cold about supporting him no matter which party he ran for. Had he ran as a Liberal, I would have thrown a protest vote elsewhere.

I basically voted for the man this time. Loewen championed the plight of Crocus shareholders of which I am one. He had the best local platform of the candidates running where I was.

[Canuck E Stan]

I have voted Liberal,Conservative,Alliance. I look at the issues, not the party. I've said this before, if the Liberals were on track with issues they would get my vote, but they are not, and haven't been in my book for some time.I agree with you on the NDP, as for the Greens, a one issue party that would will never be in power.

Question: If the Tories are more like the Liberals, why wouldn't you vote for them?

They are like the Liberals in the cynical use of a bloated budget at election time. I couldn't stand that under the Liberals. I also can't stand the use of fear tactics in an election campaign. I am seeing these things repeated now by a party that said they would do things differently. I basically sat out the last federal election in terms of organizing. I did vote though.

The person I voted for last election was John Loewen, a former PC cabinet minister who ran as a Liberal. Our family's experience with Stephen Fletcher when he was president of the University of Manitoba students union left me cold about supporting him no matter which party he ran for. Had he ran as a Liberal, I would have thrown a protest vote elsewhere.

You make a lot of excuses, but I doubt if you would vote for anyone but a Liberal regardless of issues.

Just face it, your a diehard Liberal.

[jdobbin]

You make a lot of excuses, but I doubt if you would vote for anyone but a Liberal regardless of issues.

Just face it, your a diehard Liberal.

Show me a Conservative candidates that I like locally and I might. Show me the candidate who dominates because of their character. I know Tories and Liberals who voted for Bill Blaikie because of the man. I got candidates from the Reform and Alliance who are buffoons and who made racist comments. Betty Granger comes to mind. For years all I got from the NDP were candidates who were outside the riding, in school or without any support from the national party whatsoever.

I can live with being a die-hard Liberal supporter if for no other reason than what options are given to me by the other parties.

[Canuck E Stan]

I can live with being a die-hard Liberal supporter if for no other reason than what options are given to me by the other parties.

You set your standards for non-Liberals in your local riding very high, while accepting the Federal Liberal standards rather low.

Like I said before, you make excuses to only vote for Liberals,pretending faults with non-Liberals are always greater than your beloved Liberals.

The answers to issues are not a big part of your rationale, and you will always have nothing good to say about any non-Liberal.

For you,the Liberals are the only answer,the only solution.

Thankfully other Canadians look to the answers to solutions beyond the party, and are willing to accept change for the betterment of Canada.

[jdobbin]

You set your standards for non-Liberals in your local riding very high, while accepting the Federal Liberal standards rather low.

Like I said before, you make excuses to only vote for Liberals,pretending faults with non-Liberals are always greater than your beloved Liberals.

The answers to issues are not a big part of your rationale, and you will always have nothing good to say about any non-Liberal.

For you,the Liberals are the only answer,the only solution.

Thankfully other Canadians look to the answers to solutions beyond the party, and are willing to accept change for the betterment of Canada.

And while you say you have voted other parties, I find it completely unbelievable. Nothing I've seen indicates that you have supported anyone aside from a Conservative (in whatever name they decide to call themselves).

You have never criticized a conservative as far as I can tell on these forums. You certainly haven't had anything good to say about a Liberal even though you've said you have voted for them.

[Canuck E Stan]

And while you say you have voted other parties, I find it completely unbelievable. Nothing I've seen indicates that you have supported anyone aside from a Conservative (in whatever name they decide to call themselves).

You have never criticized a conservative as far as I can tell on these forums. You certainly haven't had anything good to say about a Liberal even though you've said you have voted for them.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....e=voted+Liberal

I said it other times, unfortunately the search engine sucks.

Maybe you can search with better results.

Prior to 1993 I voted only Liberal.

I have criticized Mulroney(that's why the vote for Chretien).

I have no reason to lie.....I'm not a diehard Liberal......I'm not in denial......

I vote for solutions to issues that I feel are the best answers to problems we have.

[Michael Bluth]

Question: If the Tories are more like the Liberals, why wouldn't you vote for them?

Because it's all about hatred. There is no rationality to his attacks. No coherent line to follow.

Personally I have voted Liberal, PC and Conservative. Never Alliance (Stock Day puh lease) or Reform.

[BC_chick]

The Tories now do it as they are the new Liberals of Canada right down to their bloated budget.

Then shouldn't you be happy with them?

Shouldn't you be unhappy with them?

[BC_chick]

Isn't he a Liberal???? I don't know about his past....but as far as I know, he is a Liberal now. Am I wrong?

He's a member of the Liberal Party of Quebec, but Charest is not a liberal.

[BC_chick]

The socon faction of the Conservative Party of Canada is increasingly less influential. If you actually judged the actions of the Government instead of calling them socons who are sometimes forcing that "agenda" or "selling out their principles" as you believe them to be you would see that.

jdobbin never said anybody sold their principles. The only time the expression "selling principles" was used, it was done so by in when I was explaining the usage of a sell-out as used by Garth Turner.

IOW, the only person who has referred to Harper as a somone who sold his principals was Garth Turner, not jdobbin, nor I.

[Michael Bluth]

jdobbin never said anybody sold their principles. The only time the expression "selling principles" was used, it was done so by in when I was explaining the usage of a sell-out as used by Garth Turner.

IOW, the only person who has referred to Harper as a somone who sold his principals was Garth Turner, not jdobbin, nor I.

What reference was jdobbin making in this quote?

So, is Harper a sell-out?

You wonder why Alberta's premier is not angry about it.

Split semantic hairs all you want. But jdobbin was definitley agreeing with the premise of Saturn's post....

[jdobbin]

jdobbin never said anybody sold their principles. The only time the expression "selling principles" was used, it was done so by in when I was explaining the usage of a sell-out as used by Garth Turner.

IOW, the only person who has referred to Harper as a somone who sold his principals was Garth Turner, not jdobbin, nor I.

I didn't say selling principles that I recall. I did think that Stelmach's reaction to the budget would be different. One of the few places to see a downturn in Conservative support was Alberta. Given the feelings in the oil sector to elements of the budget, I suspect that may have had some influence.

[Canadian Blue]

I think Garth Turner should be the last person to accuse an MP of "selling out".

[BC_chick]

I didn't say selling principles that I recall. I did think that Stelmach's reaction to the budget would be different. One of the few places to see a downturn in Conservative support was Alberta. Given the feelings in the oil sector to elements of the budget, I suspect that may have had some influence.

And right you are, just look at the some of the Albertan non-hacks - they genuinely are upset with the budget.

BTW, I know you didn't say anything about "selling principles." It was Garth Turner who did, and it was August who questioned the premise given that his definition of selling souls was quite limited.... and it was me who expanded the definition to include a possible usage [/u]Garth Turner[/u] may have had in mind.

Evidently to Michael, your silence is the same thing as you using the expression yourself..... since he seems to putting words in your mouth now.

[jdobbin]

I think Garth Turner should be the last person to accuse an MP of "selling out".

And that's why I haven't been exactly waving the flag since he joined the Liberals. He has the potential to be a good MP but he has to earn trust from his colleagues and be dependable on votes that require party solidarity.

[jdobbin]

And right you are, just look at the some of the Albertan non-hacks - they genuinely are upset with the budget.

BTW, I know you didn't say anything about "selling principles." It was Garth Turner who did, and it was August who questioned the premise given that his definition of selling souls was quite limited.... and it was me who expanded the definition to include a possible usage [/u]Garth Turner[/u] may have had in mind.

Evidently to Michael, your silence is the same thing as you using the expression yourself..... since he seems to putting words in your mouth now.

I haven't seen anything he has written but he does seem to post after anything I've written. I told him that I'd rather not get into personalizing things. It would seem from your post and from what others have told me that he has some anger issues with individuals here.

I was generally surprised at Stelmach's reaction on the budget. As far as selling out on principles, I can't recall ever saying that in these forums.