"Grow up!"

[jdobbin]

SOME of the same things, but not nearly as many nor to the same extent. Honestly, what are you bitching about that you think would be better if the Liberals got in? Name an issue.

The Canadian Wheat Board for one. The whole issue has been handled incompetently. Farmers have now mistakenly gotten two ballots. To top it off, Strahl says he won't even be beholden to the vote. I have no problem if farmers choose to end the Wheat Board monopoly but it appears to be ideologically driven at this point.

The Courts for another. Attacking judges for things that are often decided by Crowns and Defence attorneys is pretty rich. Even the cops get into the act as they did in Winnipeg by making excuses for kids who have FAS and who are running down pedestrians. There is a lot of criticism that be spread around for faults in the court system but reserving a spot for cops in judge selection (and in fact having in some places two cops appointed) is not really solution.

On various social issues such as healthcare, pensions, old age security, gay marriage, I don't know what the Tories will do with a majority except what I read of when Harper was president of the National Citizen's Coalition.

[Argus]

SOME of the same things, but not nearly as many nor to the same extent. Honestly, what are you bitching about that you think would be better if the Liberals got in? Name an issue.

The Canadian Wheat Board for one. The whole issue has been handled incompetently

I haven't followed what's been happening there but I'm willing to bet the Tory efforts are due to a substantial portion of their base being western. I don't think the Liberals ever gave a damn about western wheat.

The Courts for another. Attacking judges for things that are often decided by Crowns and Defence attorneys is pretty rich.

The advent of the Charter gave the Courts power they never had before, and they have been throwing a lot of elbows to force out more and more power for themselves. That didn't involve much controversy with the governing Liberals mainly because all the judges are liberals and appointed by Liberals, and their values and activism were mainly aimed in the same direction as the governing party. It was inevitable that a different party in power would start to throw elbows back.

On various social issues such as healthcare, pensions, old age security, gay marriage, I don't know what the Tories will do with a majority except what I read of when Harper was president of the National Citizen's Coalition.

The tories are not the Reform party, and I think Harper has amply demonstrated that he is not going to do anything that is going to alienate any substantial group of potential voters.

[Keepitsimple]

"Grow Up" is a perfect response to the typical self-righteous, indignant, bluster that comes from the Liberals. Here's an example of some of the nasty things that Liberals have said about Harper over the past year - and yet we have not heard Harper screaming for apologies:

Since last fall, the Liberals have labelled Mr. Harper a Neanderthal over his government's cuts to the Status of Women Canada budget; implied he is racist for axing the $5-billion Kelowna agreement on native funding; claimed he is anti-democratic for "stacking" the committees that advise on judicial nominees; accused him of "undermining our Canadian values system" by eliminating funding to the left-leaning Court Challenges Program; and suggested he was homophobic for reviving the debate on same-sex marriage. They have called him a "control freak," "Bush-lite," "deceitful" and a practitioner of "Republican voodoo economics."

Two weeks ago in Halifax, during his cross-country tour aimed at saving his sagging leadership, Mr. Dion accused the Prime Minister of hard-heartedly abandoning the poor by cutting social programs and of attempting "to change our culture to a rightwing republican state."

Whatever one thinks of the truth of these puffed up accusations -- and we don't think much of them -- they are perfectly above-board. Indeed, they are the lifeblood of a parliamentary system based on a government held to account by a zealous opposition. So why can't Mr. Dion and the Liberals stand it when they are the subject of return vitriol?

Link: http://www.canada.com/components/print.asp...f6-f349b416d5c3

[Michael Bluth]

I haven't followed what's been happening there but I'm willing to bet the Tory efforts are due to a substantial portion of their base being western. I don't think the Liberals ever gave a damn about western wheat.

The tories are not the Reform party, and I think Harper has amply demonstrated that he is not going to do anything that is going to alienate any substantial group of potential voters.

Your two responses go hand in hand.

The Wheat board is favoured by a big chunk of their supporters in the prairies. However, the people opposed to their stance are pretty vocal.

[jdobbin]

I haven't followed what's been happening there but I'm willing to bet the Tory efforts are due to a substantial portion of their base being western. I don't think the Liberals ever gave a damn about western wheat.

The advent of the Charter gave the Courts power they never had before, and they have been throwing a lot of elbows to force out more and more power for themselves. That didn't involve much controversy with the governing Liberals mainly because all the judges are liberals and appointed by Liberals, and their values and activism were mainly aimed in the same direction as the governing party. It was inevitable that a different party in power would start to throw elbows back.

The tories are not the Reform party, and I think Harper has amply demonstrated that he is not going to do anything that is going to alienate any substantial group of potential voters.

The Liberals let the Wheat Board run itself. They didn't try to fix the ballots like the Tories did to get an answer they wanted.

The attack on the court is uncalled for. Parliament has within its own grasp the means to change the laws on sentencing, on how many Crown attorneys hired and how prison and parole operations are handled. Harper should have the decency to do what Mulroney did when it came to the his overall approach to the courts: make inspired choices that the legal community, the public and Parliamentarians alike respect. Don't stack the selection review boards.

The Tories are in a minority situation. You said yourself that one of the things that you liked about the new Conservative party is that they have squeezed out Red Tories. A Red Tory has been categorized in the past as people like Peter Lougheed and Bill Davis. On the federal front it has been Flora MacDonald and David Crombie.

[ScottSA]

Whatever one thinks of the truth of these puffed up accusations -- and we don't think much of them -- they are perfectly above-board. Indeed, they are the lifeblood of a parliamentary system based on a government held to account by a zealous opposition. So why can't Mr. Dion and the Liberals stand it when they are the subject of return vitriol?

Link: http://www.canada.com/components/print.asp...f6-f349b416d5c3

Let us not forget 15 years of alarmist vitriol from the Liberal Party culminating in the 'soldiers in the streets' attack ads that finally....finally...sunk them.

[jdobbin]

Let us not forget 15 years of alarmist vitriol from the Liberal Party culminating in the 'soldiers in the streets' attack ads that finally....finally...sunk them.

I suspect if Liberal vitriol sunk the party, Conservative vitriol will eventually do the same.

[Michael Bluth]

The Liberals let the Wheat Board run itself.

The attack on the court is uncalled for. Parliament has within its own grasp the means to change the laws on sentencing, on how many Crown attorneys hired and how prison and parole operations are handled. Harper should have the decency to do what Mulroney did when it came to the his overall approach to the courts: make inspired choices that the legal community, the public and Parliamentarians alike respect. Don't stack the selection review boards.

The Tories are in a minority situation. You said yourself that one of the things that you liked about the new Conservative party is that they have squeezed out Red Tories. A Red Tory has been categorized in the past as people like Peter Lougheed and Bill Davis. On the federal front it has been Flora MacDonald and David Crombie.

The Liberals let a small clique within the Wheat Board make decisions contrary to the views of a large percentage of the board's members.

*Attacks* on the court is such an overstatement. Rothstein's nomination to the Supreme's was inspired and widely applauded.

Do you not see the irony that none of the *Red Tories* you have pointed to have been active in politics for over a decade? Or are you just that out of step?

The departure of the Red Tory came about long before Harper had any leadership position.

[ScottSA]

Let us not forget 15 years of alarmist vitriol from the Liberal Party culminating in the 'soldiers in the streets' attack ads that finally....finally...sunk them.

I suspect if Liberal vitriol sunk the party, Conservative vitriol will eventually do the same.

Well, it was a bit more than vitriol that sunk the Liberals. It was the sheer emptiness of their pragmatic cynicism, ranging from piously adopting Kyoto and then ignoring it to tantruming at the US for militarism while hunkering down under it's strategic protection. In spite of being a "neo-con" (a complete misnomer the left loves to use because it sounds so sinister), Harper has taken more concrete steps in a year toward things the Liberals promised for decades. And Harper actually DOES most of what he promises...a radical departure from Liberal Red Bookism, which introduced interesting bingo cards for Canadians to check off broken promises for the next few years until they were all broken.

[jdobbin]

Well, it was a bit more than vitriol that sunk the Liberals. It was the sheer emptiness of their pragmatic cynicism, ranging from piously adopting Kyoto and then ignoring it to tantruming at the US for militarism while hunkering down under it's strategic protection. In spite of being a "neo-con" (a complete misnomer the left loves to use because it sounds so sinister), Harper has taken more concrete steps in a year toward things the Liberals promised for decades. And Harper actually DOES most of what he promises...a radical departure from Liberal Red Bookism, which introduced interesting bingo cards for Canadians to check off broken promises for the next few years until they were all broken.

You'll have no argument from me on the Liberal environmental policy being piss poor. That said, the Tories didn't believe any global warming science until the past few months.

I don't know what tantrum there was by not going to Iraq. Are you suggesting that because the U.S. goes to places like Vietnam and Iraq, we are obligated to as well?

As for promises, I was among quite a few who have seen the value of their investments affected by the change on income trusts.

[ScottSA]

You'll have no argument from me on the Liberal environmental policy being piss poor. That said, the Tories didn't believe any global warming science until the past few months.

I don't know what tantrum there was by not going to Iraq. Are you suggesting that because the U.S. goes to places like Vietnam and Iraq, we are obligated to as well?

As for promises, I was among quite a few who have seen the value of their investments affected by the change on income trusts.

Ah yes, the income trust, notably because it's the ONLY promise broken by Harper, and broken only because of economic necessity. I won't bother stacking up the well known litany of broken Liberal promises on the other side of the scale...we all know it would not tilt it, but break it.

I'm not talking about Vietnam and Iraq, I'm talking about the degradation of the Canadian military to the point were we are an international laughing stock with absolutely no hard power and as a consequence, very little soft power. Like it or not, international influence comes from the size of stick one carries.

As for "Global warming", a good number of people don't buy the current line, and more are creeping out of the woodwork everyday. The jury is still out on that, regardless of attempts by the GW industry to close the debate.

[jdobbin]

Ah yes, the income trust, notably because it's the ONLY promise broken by Harper, and broken only because of economic necessity. I won't bother stacking up the well known litany of broken Liberal promises on the other side of the scale...we all know it would not tilt it, but break it.

I'm not talking about Vietnam and Iraq, I'm talking about the degradation of the Canadian military to the point were we are an international laughing stock with absolutely no hard power and as a consequence, very little soft power. Like it or not, international influence comes from the size of stick one carries.

As for "Global warming", a good number of people don't buy the current line, and more are creeping out of the woodwork everyday. The jury is still out on that, regardless of attempts by the GW industry to close the debate.

I wouldn't call that the only breach of trust or broken promise. The wait times promise was one of the big five. There are a few pilot programs out there but they are very small and in this last budget, there was no big initiative. Healthcare wait times barely gets a mention and it is the one of the top issues out there for Canadians.

[Canadian Blue]

I'm not talking about Vietnam and Iraq, I'm talking about the degradation of the Canadian military to the point were we are an international laughing stock with absolutely no hard power and as a consequence, very little soft power. Like it or not, international influence comes from the size of stick one carries.

We don't need "hard power", as far as I'm concerned. Canada should remain a middle power, and I think that's the best position to be in. I don't want to see this country go down the same route the American's have with regards to militarism.

[ScottSA]

I'm not talking about Vietnam and Iraq, I'm talking about the degradation of the Canadian military to the point were we are an international laughing stock with absolutely no hard power and as a consequence, very little soft power. Like it or not, international influence comes from the size of stick one carries.

We don't need "hard power", as far as I'm concerned.

With every post of yours I see, I become more thankful that your concerns don't run the country.

[ScottSA]

I wouldn't call that the only breach of trust or broken promise. The wait times promise was one of the big five. There are a few pilot programs out there but they are very small and in this last budget, there was no big initiative. Healthcare wait times barely gets a mention and it is the one of the top issues out there for Canadians.

Yeah, but would you ever really expect a minority government to fix that particular decades-long moneypit in a little over a year? I wouldn't say they "broke a promise" just because it's not a shiny new flawlessly humming engine at the moment, would you?

[Canadian Blue]

With every post of yours I see, I become more thankful that your concerns don't run the country.

They have for a large portion of the past 100 years. That's why people tend to think more highly of us, and that's why we have a higher quality of life. That's also the reason why we are so well liked in the world. Primarily because we aren't a nation of war mongers.

[ScottSA]

With every post of yours I see, I become more thankful that your concerns don't run the country.

They have for a large portion of the past 100 years. That's why people tend to think more highly of us, and that's why we have a higher quality of life. That's also the reason why we are so well liked in the world. Primarily because we aren't a nation of war mongers.

I'm a canadian. We actually are a nation of warmongers and we're quite good at it too. It's just that we've developed a rather soft paunch with a tad too much much affluence of late, and we've bred a generation of fools who think peace and affluence is the default condition in social society, rather than something that has to be built and defended.

[Michael Bluth]

Is this all you do CB?

We are off for a walk to the lake down the side of the mountain.We wil lhave a car waiting for us.

You ought to get a hobby, something besides plastic soldiers and internet forums.

What you really need is a woman, to teach you about sex

Did Canadian Blue do something to you in another life?

There appears to be a level of hatred that far surpasses anything he did on this board.

[Canadian Blue]

MB, he/she is rather obsessed with me for some reason.

All I do is report and ignore. Any PM I get, I simply forward them to the moderator. Most of them are fairly creepy as well.

[Canadian Blue]

I'm a canadian. We actually are a nation of warmongers and we're quite good at it too. It's just that we've developed a rather soft paunch with a tad too much much affluence of late, and we've bred a generation of fools who think peace and affluence is the default condition in social society, rather than something that has to be built and defended.

Building a society, how do we build onto our society by bombing a bunch of people we don't even know? How do we build a society by engaging in a futile war that would last for nearly half a century? As for being a nation of warmongers, well, it's easy to be a warmonger if you aren't the one that has to do the fighting.

I'm not prepared to defend the interests of the war mongers back at home, and I personally wouldn't want people to send our men and women to war based on cliche's and the ignorance of the population back at home with regards to the realities of war.

[jdobbin]

Yeah, but would you ever really expect a minority government to fix that particular decades-long moneypit in a little over a year? I wouldn't say they "broke a promise" just because it's not a shiny new flawlessly humming engine at the moment, would you?

If the Liberals had made that guarantee and didn't fulfill it, I would have called it a broken promise.

It is a broken promise as the party is into its second budget.

[Canuck E Stan]

Yeah, but would you ever really expect a minority government to fix that particular decades-long moneypit in a little over a year? I wouldn't say they "broke a promise" just because it's not a shiny new flawlessly humming engine at the moment, would you?

If the Liberals had made that guarantee and didn't fulfill it, I would have called it a broken promise.

It is a broken promise as the party is into its second budget.

Dobbin,

But the reality is,parties make promises before an election hoping to win.

And that win is hoping there is a majority.

What party ever made a promise saying they wouldn't keep it if they had a minority?

What about all the committees that are loaded with opposition members who refuse to advance a bill out of committee, who's to blame?

And let's not forget, the party who had a majority for a period of three mandates not holding their promises.......that's not excuseable, or is it?

[jdobbin]

But the reality is,parties make promises before an election hoping to win.

And that win is hoping there is a majority.

What party ever made a promise saying they wouldn't keep it if they had a minority?

What about all the committees that are loaded with opposition members who refuse to advance a bill out of committee, who's to blame?

And let's not forget, the party who had a majority for a period of three mandates not holding their promises.......that's not excuseable, or is it?

The Tories made five major promises that they said were achievable. I gotta say the one that I thought was at the heart of their success in the campaign was the healthcare wait times. I know the Liberals didn't fulfill promises but that big one right there is going to dog them even if they win a majority.

As for the committees, the government itself adds a lot of amendments. So far many bills are right on schedule. The Liberals even said they would expedite the crime bills but the Tories refused. What gives?

[ScottSA]

The Tories made five major promises that they said were achievable. I gotta say the one that I thought was at the heart of their success in the campaign was the healthcare wait times. I know the Liberals didn't fulfill promises but that big one right there is going to dog them even if they win a majority.

As for the committees, the government itself adds a lot of amendments. So far many bills are right on schedule. The Liberals even said they would expedite the crime bills but the Tories refused. What gives?

And the fact is that they WOULD be achievable...or at least might be implimentable...if the Cons had a majority. When it all shakes out in the end, the only way to reduce wait times is to embrace some form of the dreaded "two-tier American-style" system. Otherwise medicare will simply consume the entire budget and then begin to mount into debt. The current system is completely unworkable. But that's not on with the NDP and Liberals yowling in opposition, without bringing down the government and going no-where, so the Cons HAVE to have a majority in order to be able to work toward achieving that promise.

You can call it a broken promise if you want, but it's not. If they go through an entire majority term without achieving it or tryiong to achieve it, THEN it's a broken promise. The Libs went through lot's of majority governments, kept almost no promises, and raped the treasury in the bargain.

[Canadian Blue]

Didn't the Liberal's bring about a balanced budget after the Conservatives had put us into even more debt year by year.

And the fact is that they WOULD be achievable...or at least might be implimentable...if the Cons had a majority. When it all shakes out in the end, the only way to reduce wait times is to embrace some form of the dreaded "two-tier American-style" system. Otherwise medicare will simply consume the entire budget and then begin to mount into debt. The current system is completely unworkable. But that's not on with the NDP and Liberals yowling in opposition, without bringing down the government and going no-where, so the Cons HAVE to have a majority in order to be able to work toward achieving that promise.

Except that I'm sure plenty of MP's will register dissaproval with a move towards American style health care. I doubt the Conservative's would bring it about, unless they want to be decimated in the next election.