gc1765 Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 I think Holland should leave his critic position until the RCMP can fully investigate how he received confidential documents and how he feels entitled to browse through private files.Hmm... how's that? I will repeat what I have said over and over in this thread: Show me where there is a clear indication of who owns the boxes (and no, 320-3 is not a clear indication. If you found a wallet marked 320-3, would you know what to do with it). I keep asking, but so far no one has been able to show me. I'm starting to think people are ignoring this point on purpose. If you can show me this, I will agree with you 100%. If not, I will continue to assume there is no indication of who owns the boxes. Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Martin Chriton Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 I will repeat what I have said over and over in this thread: Show me where there is a clear indication of who owns the boxes (and no, 320-3 is not a clear indication. If you found a wallet marked 320-3, would you know what to do with it). I keep asking, but so far no one has been able to show me. I'm starting to think people are ignoring this point on purpose. If you can show me this, I will agree with you 100%. If not, I will continue to assume there is no indication of who owns the boxes. Ummm. You can be assured Holland knew the boxes were the Conservatives. The boxes were marked as leaving 145 Well and moving to 320-3. 145 Well is the OLO (Opposition Leader's Office). Who was in the OLO before the Liberals moved in? Quote
Figleaf Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 It's illegal to offer inducement for someone to step down. It may be a non-issue for you, but it's still illegal. It's only a non-issue for me because I trust the thorough investigation of the RCMP regarding this exact matter. Do you think the RCMP were shown the fax that Holland has uncovered? If not, it's new evidence and merits a new investigation. Quote
Figleaf Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 So the box Holland admitted to "finding" the fax in, the box clearly marked as to be moved to the PMO is not a serious indication of wrongdoing? 1. I don't agree that the box in the video was clearly marked. It's markings were anything but clear (to anyone other than Parliament Hill movers maybe). 2. I don't know that the fax came from that box. 3. I don't accept that it would have been wrong to look in the box. BTW, Stock should step aside to avoid accusations of bias. Quote
Figleaf Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Ummm. You can be assured Holland knew the boxes were the Conservatives. It's safe to infer that he could have infered whose docs were in the box. But that doesn't mean he did anything wrong looking in it (if he did). While Con supporters flail about this silly attack on Holland, it's astounding hypocrisy to ignore the implications of the fax. Quote
gc1765 Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Ummm. You can be assured Holland knew the boxes were the Conservatives. The boxes were marked as leaving 145 Well and moving to 320-3. 145 Well is the OLO (Opposition Leader's Office). Who was in the OLO before the Liberals moved in? Oh, well as long as you believe that Holland must have known what 320-3 meant, I can rest assured. I mean, who doesn't know what 320-3 means? Duh. Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Martin Chriton Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Ummm. You can be assured Holland knew the boxes were the Conservatives. The boxes were marked as leaving 145 Well and moving to 320-3. 145 Well is the OLO (Opposition Leader's Office). Who was in the OLO before the Liberals moved in? Oh, well as long as you believe that Holland must have known what 320-3 meant, I can rest assured. I mean, who doesn't know what 320-3 means? Duh. ? Did you even read my post. Read it again. You can be sure he knew those boxes were leaving the OLO. What party was moving out of the OLO? Quote
stignasty Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Okay, let's assume that the box was labeled "PROPERTY OF THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY OF CANADA," and the Liberals looked in the box and found the fax. What should happen now? Should the RCMP put the piece of paper back into the box and pretend that they never saw it? Should this potential evidence of wrongdoing simply be forgotten? Quote "It may not be true, but it's legendary that if you're like all Americans, you know almost nothing except for your own country. Which makes you probably knowledgeable about one more country than most Canadians." - Stephen Harper
Shakeyhands Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Bluth et al, thats some nice looking spin y'all got going! If I move in to a property and boxes are left behind, I am within my right to open said boxes. If I find something that denotes that something illegle has occured, hell I am duty bound (and perhaps by law) to report it to the appropriate parties... Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Martin Chriton Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Bluth et al, thats some nice looking spin y'all got going!If I move in to a property and boxes are left behind, I am within my right to open said boxes. If I find something that denotes that something illegle has occured, hell I am duty bound (and perhaps by law) to report it to the appropriate parties... You've obviously never worked in an office environment. The actual moving work is contracted out. An honest person would've contacted the moving company if they had in fact made a mistake. Obviously Holland isn't an honest person. Quote
Martin Chriton Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Okay, let's assume that the box was labeled "PROPERTY OF THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY OF CANADA," and the Liberals looked in the box and found the fax. What should happen now? Should the RCMP put the piece of paper back into the box and pretend that they never saw it? Should this potential evidence of wrongdoing simply be forgotten? They're two independent issues. If the RCMP wants to reopen the investigation against Day, they can do that. The Holland issue is separate. Holland has been exposed as a liar and thief, will he get punished for this? Unlikely. He'll most likely get rewarded by Dion with the task of pulling off much larger thefts. Quote
gc1765 Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 You can be sure he knew those boxes were leaving the OLO. What party was moving out of the OLO? The Conservative party was moving out of the opposition leader's office in March 2007? If the boxes were found on the day the Liberals moved in, you might have a point. But over a year later, and those boxes could be anyone's. Don't you think the Liberals might move boxes around once in a while? Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Michael Bluth Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 But over a year later, and those boxes could be anyone's. Don't you think the Liberals might move boxes around once in a while? Why would they be moving boxes to the PMO? The box was clearly labelled to be moved from the OLO to the PMO. Quote No one has ever defeated the Liberals with a divided conservative family. - Hon. Jim Prentice
gc1765 Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Why would they be moving boxes to the PMO?The box was clearly labelled to be moved from the OLO to the PMO. Haven't you read any of my posts in this thread? Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Michael Bluth Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Haven't you read any of my posts in this thread? Yes. Members of the general public probably wouldn't know what 320-3 is, but MPs do. Any of your other weak defences of Holland you want refuted? Quote No one has ever defeated the Liberals with a divided conservative family. - Hon. Jim Prentice
gc1765 Posted April 4, 2007 Report Posted April 4, 2007 Yes. Members of the general public probably wouldn't know what 320-3 is, but MPs do. How do you know this? Any of your other weak defences of Holland you want refuted? No need to get testy... Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Michael Bluth Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 How do you know this? Point 1: How do people know what 24 Sussex Drive is? They are interested in politics. MPs are heavily interested in politics by definition. Point 2: Even if Holland didn't know the address, he opened a box that was clearly marked to be moved out of the office he *found* it in. Analogy, if you don't know the address on a letter does that make it ok to open it? No need to get testy... Answer the questions fairly then... Quote No one has ever defeated the Liberals with a divided conservative family. - Hon. Jim Prentice
gc1765 Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 Point 1: How do people know what 24 Sussex Drive is? They are interested in politics. MPs are heavily interested in politics by definition. So you don't actually know, and you're just guessing? Point 2: Even if Holland didn't know the address, he opened a box that was clearly marked to be moved out of the office he *found* it in. Analogy, if you don't know the address on a letter does that make it ok to open it? If you find the letter in your house, over a year after you moved in, then yes of course it's ok. Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Figleaf Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 How do you know this? Point 1: How do people know what 24 Sussex Drive is? They are interested in politics. MPs are heavily interested in politics by definition. Ah look, it's comedy hour again. Point 2: Even if Holland didn't know the address, he opened a box that was clearly marked to be moved out of the office he *found* it in. It was not clearly marked. It was unclearly marked. And so what? What makes it illegal to open a box that's been floating around your office, unclaimed, for years? This is such a specious dodge. Look, the point of this discussion is that there was a fax found that suggests a crime may have been commited regarding the resignation of MP Hart. Pathetic sidetracking into box opening suggests a certain desperation for a subject change. Analogy, if you don't know the address on a letter does that make it ok to open it? Faulty analogy. Quote
Michael Bluth Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 Look, the point of this discussion is that there was a fax found that suggests a crime may have been commited regarding the resignation of MP Hart. Pathetic sidetracking into box opening suggests a certain desperation for a subject change. Just as "pathetic" as the Liberals sidetracking on Gurmant Grewal and his tape. However, Grewal was shown to be duplicitous and untrustworthy. Just as Holland will... If you find the letter in your house, over a year after you moved in, then yes of course it's ok. Still illegal. Quote No one has ever defeated the Liberals with a divided conservative family. - Hon. Jim Prentice
Figleaf Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 Just as "pathetic" as the Liberals sidetracking on Gurmant Grewal and his tape. However, Grewal was shown to be duplicitous and untrustworthy. Grewal editted the tapes to make them present a story that in their totality was not the case. And the chain of events around that matter suggested that Steve and other tory high-ups knew it was a fraud and allowed it to proceed. If it is eventually found that Holland has doctored the fax before releasing it the way Grewal doctored the tapes, then you might have some kind of point. Still illegal. It is not illegal to open a mysterous box left unclaimed in your office for years. Cite an applicable law if you disagree. Quote
gc1765 Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 If you find the letter in your house, over a year after you moved in, then yes of course it's ok. Still illegal. If I find an unmarked envelope in my own house, I'm not allowed to open it??? Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Michael Bluth Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 If I find an unmarked envelope in my own house, I'm not allowed to open it??? I actually said addressed explicitly. Nice diversion. Quote No one has ever defeated the Liberals with a divided conservative family. - Hon. Jim Prentice
gc1765 Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 I actually said addressed explicitly. Nice diversion. I'm getting dizzy from these circular arguments. Where is it addressed explicitly? Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Figleaf Posted April 5, 2007 Report Posted April 5, 2007 If I find an unmarked envelope in my own house, I'm not allowed to open it??? I actually said addressed explicitly. ... Yes, that's part of what made it such an infelicious analogy, since The Box only had a coded mover's label on it. Quote
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