Stockwell Day

[Figleaf]

What is the document said to contain? Maybe someone has the class Figleaf doesn't and can explain. Or maybe he's unable to.

I don't think it's a lack of class. I am pretty sure that Figleaf hasn't seen the actual document. That wouldn't stop him from going after the Conservative Government. ...

I know about as much as anyone who pays routine attention to the news. I haven't read the document. The relevant quote of MP Hart from the document is undisputed by Hart (or anyone else with any knowledge as far as I know).

As for going after the government, the government has a clear and direct path to avoiding it -- Day should step aside until (unless) he's cleared.

[Michael Bluth]

\I know about as much as anyone who pays routine attention to the news. I haven't read the document. The relevant quote of MP Hart from the document is undisputed by Hart (or anyone else with any knowledge as far as I know).

As for going after the government, the government has a clear and direct path to avoiding it -- Day should step aside until (unless) he's cleared.

But there is no question about the credibility of the document?

Hart is living in the country of Georgia at the moment.

He hasn't commented on this most recent little escapade caused by Mark Holland. The stories from earlier in the thread say nobody has been able to contact him.

You interpret this as being "undisputed" by Hart.

Why techincally true it is very deceitful. There are definitely questions about your portrayal of the situation.

[Figleaf]

\I know about as much as anyone who pays routine attention to the news. I haven't read the document. The relevant quote of MP Hart from the document is undisputed by Hart (or anyone else with any knowledge as far as I know).

As for going after the government, the government has a clear and direct path to avoiding it -- Day should step aside until (unless) he's cleared.

But there is no question about the credibility of the document?

Is there? None that I've heard. Presumably if there is, the RCMP would evaluate that in their investigation (unless Day thwarts it).

He hasn't commented on this most recent little escapade caused by Mark Holland.

Wrong. He's quoted as saying the documents say what they say.

[Keepitsimple]

It's all a bunch of hooey. Hart could have held onto his seat until the next election. He chose to step aside for Stock and in doing so, is entitled to some sort of severence pay to make up for his lost earnings. Nothing weird about that at all. The only thing that might be open to question is how much was paid by the government and how much was paid by the Conservative Party. It would have been correct for the Government to pay Hart until such time as they started paying Stockwell Day - in other words, the gvernment should not be paying both people at the same time. This all seems quite proper to me - if being an MP was your only source of income, wouldn't you want to be paid severence if you stepped aside? The documents may be a little ambiguous and open to conspiracy allegations - but only "stepping aside" severence is not a formal policy of the Conservative Party so they were probably making it up as they went along....but the principle of paying someone for obvious lost income seems pretty fair to me.

[gc1765]

Nobody has actually posted the document itself.

The diversion is you saying there is no questiona bout the credibility of the document without having actually seen it.

I posted part of it at least a couple of times in this thread, and also stated that Jim Hart doesn't deny it. How come everyone keeps ignoring that?

Basically, the documents said something like "my resignation was contingent upon payment" or something to that effect, but I'm too lazy to look it up yet again and Jim Hart does not denying saying that.

[gc1765]

But there is no question about the credibility of the document?

Hart is living in the country of Georgia at the moment.

He hasn't commented on this most recent little escapade caused by Mark Holland. The stories from earlier in the thread say nobody has been able to contact him.

You interpret this as being "undisputed" by Hart.

Why techincally true it is very deceitful. There are definitely questions about your portrayal of the situation.

Seems everyone keeps ignoring my posts when I bring up the fact that Jim Hart does not deny it. Here is the Link

...not that I'm actually expecting a response...

[Michael Bluth]

I posted part of it at least a couple of times in this thread, and also stated that Jim Hart doesn't deny it. How come everyone keeps ignoring that?

Basically, the documents said something like "my resignation was contingent upon payment" or something to that effect, but I'm too lazy to look it up yet again and Jim Hart does not denying saying that.

That story you just posted has Hart saying the faxes "are what they are".

Doesn't seem to be the smoking gun others are making them out to be. If you are too lazy to look so be it.

[Canuck E Stan]

Seems everyone keeps ignoring my posts when I bring up the fact that Jim Hart does not deny it. Here is the Link

...not that I'm actually expecting a response...

From Hart

"Seven years ago, when my resignation was accepted by the party, I was asked to provide an estimate of my financial losses," Hart continued.

"Seven years ago, my desire was to protect my staff from job losses.

"Seven years ago, my desire was to protect my family until I found work. I was just a grassroots guy, not independently wealthy and trying to do the right thing."

Anonymously right out of the box

At a news conference in Ottawa on Thursday, Holland said he was given documents anonymously earlier this week that indicate otherwise.

But wait.....

Holland said the Liberals recently found the documents in one of their offices - the Office of the Leader of the Opposition. The office used to be occupied by the Alliance, the Official Opposition from 2000 to 2003.

And from Hart....

“The documents in question, written seven years ago are what they are and can be taken out of context or spun in any direction the conductor wishes,” Mr. Hart wrote in his memo.

[gc1765]

“The documents in question, written seven years ago are what they are and can be taken out of context or spun in any direction the conductor wishes,” Mr. Hart wrote in his memo.

Exactly how should "My resignation was contingent upon this negotiation" be spun in order to make the CPC look good?

[geoffrey]

The compensation paid is a matter of fact and the RCMP has investigated this years ago. It's a non-issue, no matter how much Holland likes having his face on TV.

[gc1765]

That story you just posted has Hart saying the faxes "are what they are".

Doesn't seem to be the smoking gun others are making them out to be. If you are too lazy to look so be it.

I've quoted it 2 or 3 times in this thread. Look for yourself.

[gc1765]

The compensation paid is a matter of fact and the RCMP has investigated this years ago. It's a non-issue, no matter how much Holland likes having his face on TV.

It's illegal to offer inducement for someone to step down. It may be a non-issue for you, but it's still illegal.

[geoffrey]

It's illegal to offer inducement for someone to step down. It may be a non-issue for you, but it's still illegal.

It's only a non-issue for me because I trust the thorough investigation of the RCMP regarding this exact matter. I could likely search for hours on the internet, pull out a comment that the media hasn't run with before on the Sponsorship scandal, and condemn Martin for hours. But realistically, it's a done deal.

[gc1765]

It's only a non-issue for me because I trust the thorough investigation of the RCMP regarding this exact matter. I could likely search for hours on the internet, pull out a comment that the media hasn't run with before on the Sponsorship scandal, and condemn Martin for hours. But realistically, it's a done deal.

If you have any evidence to condemn Martin for the sponsorship scandal, I'd love to hear it.

As for stockwell, all this talk of it being a done deal doesn't fly. When the RCMP was investigating this previously, they concluded that Hart's resignation was not contingent upon compensation. Recent evidence, which Hart does not deny, shows that his resignation was in fact contingent upon compensation.

An analogy would be if someone found documents quoting Martin saying "yep, I am responsible for stealing money in the sponsorship scandal" and Martin coming out and saying "yep, what I said previously is true". If that's the case, wouldn't you want to see Martin prosecuted? Or would you say that it has already been settled?

[Figleaf]

It's all a bunch of hooey. Hart could have held onto his seat until the next election. He chose to step aside for Stock and in doing so, is entitled to some sort of severence pay to make up for his lost earnings.

Not according to the Criminal Code.

[Figleaf]

Is Stockwell STILL trying to brazen this out?

C'mon, the guy who got paid off practically admitted it.

Leading the investigators looking into allegations about oneself is a corrupt practice and the tories should admit that Day can't stay.

[Martin Chriton]

Is Hart STILL trying to brazen this out?

C'mon, the guy practically admitted stealing the documents.

The liberals should admit that Hart can't stay.

[Figleaf]

Is Hart STILL trying to brazen this out?

C'mon, the guy practically admitted stealing the documents.

The liberals should admit that Hart can't stay.

1. Do you mean Liberals?

2. I'm sure the Liberals would agree with you about Hart.

[Martin Chriton]

Is Hart STILL trying to brazen this out?

C'mon, the guy practically admitted stealing the documents.

The liberals should admit that Hart can't stay.

1. Do you mean Liberals?

2. I'm sure the Liberals would agree with you about Hart.

I ment Holland not Hart

[Michael Bluth]

1. Do you mean Liberals?

2. I'm sure the Liberals would agree with you about Hart.

Glad you used the L. The term liberal denotes a sense of ideological conviction.

We all know there is no conviction in Dion's party.

Yes, Holland should resign. Unfortunately Canadians are likely to put up with his antics for decades to come. Hopefully most of those are spent with young Mark braying from the opposition benches.

[Figleaf]

We all know there is no conviction in Dion's party.

And it seems like Stock is working hard to ensure there are no convictions in the Conservative party.

Yes, Holland should resign.

That is just SO out to lunch I don't know why you keep writing it. Well, I may have an idea about why...

Anyway, there are not serious indications of any wrongdoing on Holland's part. But the fax he revealed does tell us pretty clearly that someone did something that looks like it runs against the political corruption laws in engineering the resignation of MP Hart. Day should step aside until the RCMP get a good look at the situation at least.

[Michael Bluth]

Anyway, there are not serious indications of any wrongdoing on Holland's part. But the fax he revealed does tell us pretty clearly that someone did something that looks like it runs against the political corruption laws in engineering the resignation of MP Hart. Day should step aside until the RCMP get a good look at the situation at least.

I guess you meant "no serious indications".

So the box Holland admitted to "finding" the fax in, the box clearly marked as to be moved to the PMO is not a serious indication of wrongdoing?

What would it take to meet your "serious indication" level of proof?

ps. Thanks for agreeing about the lack of ideological clarity to the Liberal Party of Canada.

[Martin Chriton]

We all know there is no conviction in Dion's party.

And it seems like Stock is working hard to ensure there are no convictions in the Conservative party.

Yes, Holland should resign.

That is just SO out to lunch I don't know why you keep writing it. Well, I may have an idea about why...

Anyway, there are not serious indications of any wrongdoing on Holland's part. But the fax he revealed does tell us pretty clearly that someone did something that looks like it runs against the political corruption laws in engineering the resignation of MP Hart. Day should step aside until the RCMP get a good look at the situation at least.

Why do Liberal supporters have nothing against theft?

Theft seems to be a party motto.

The sooner the Liberals rid themselves of liars and thieves the sooner they can start to regain the electorate's trust.

[jbg]

Why do Liberal supporters have nothing against theft?

Theft seems to be a party motto.

The sooner the Liberals rid themselves of liars and thieves the sooner they can start to regain the electorate's trust.

They're a brokerage party, much like Mexico's old PRI, Japan's LDP and the various Christian Democrat parties of Europe, embracing all ideologies, and believing in nothing but power.

Short plain English, what you suggest for the LPOC cannot be done.

[geoffrey]

I think Holland should leave his critic position until the RCMP can fully investigate how he received confidential documents and how he feels entitled to browse through private files.

Hmm... how's that?