Will Budget Solve Declining Population?

[jbg]

The latest budget may be quite good, possibly as good as a minority budget gets. Some are suggesting it is a panacea for the declining birth rate. I do not believe that a budget in Canada is going to reduce the population implosion.

A better place to start would be to reduce the ridiculous amount of time it takes to get an undergraduate degree and most professional degrees. High school and college could each be three years, law school, one year, and medical school, I don't know from experience but maybe 2 or 3 years. Trust me, there is little, at least in the case of law, one learns in law school that a good mentor at a law firm couldn't teach far better. Practice, in my field at least, does make perfect.

Personally, I graduated law school at age 25 in 1982. I was in no position, economically, to marry until I was around 30. If I graduated law school at age 21, I could have married early enough to have 3 or 4 children, rather than just 2. Also, the generations would roll by faster, increasing even further the population growth effect.

While tax credits for dependents may be a good idea, I didn't exactly look at my tax returns in deciding how many children to have. The calendar sort of made that decision for me, and for many others. There are only so many children in the future with marriage occurring when people are in their thirties

[blueblood]

Bang on. This post secondary trap is in my opinion a big hindrance on growth. Most stuff learned in post-secondary is not practical. Having so many students chained to student loans is hindering them. Do you honestly need a 4 yr. degree to sit in a cubicle? Learning on the job is by far the best way to learn. I think our society should realize that university degrees are not the be all and end all of the world.

[Who's Doing What?]

Bang on. This post secondary trap is in my opinion a big hindrance on growth. Most stuff learned in post-secondary is not practical. Having so many students chained to student loans is hindering them. Do you honestly need a 4 yr. degree to sit in a cubicle? Learning on the job is by far the best way to learn. I think our society should realize that university degrees are not the be all and end all of the world.

I have been trying to explain to people for years how even highschool for some people is a waste of time that could be better put to use as an apprentice. If you want to go to college to become a teacher, doctor or lawyer great, go finish highschool. But what is learning Shakespeare, or quadratic equations going to do for you if you want to be a mechanic, chef, hairdresser, or bricklayer? I have yet to use anything from Othello to help me in my day to day activities.

The same goes for post secondary education. Do you really need 4+ years of med school to diagnose a cold or flu and prescribe penicilin? OR 4 years of Law school to write a contract?

IF we specialize our education system like we have specialized our work force we could save a lot of moeny.

Take the medical profession:

Your doctor will send you to a specialist to diagnose your problem. Does he/she really need years of med school to schedule an appointment? What we need are people who are capable of making the most basic of diagnosis, like telling the difference between a cold and a flu. Or being able to feel if a persons glands are swollen. Or take peoples weight and blood pressure. We need some people who have the authority to prescibe antibiotics, a salve for a rash, extend a refill or if they feel it is warranted send you to someone else for further testing.

I don't mean nurses. Although they would certainly have the knowledge and capabilities to perform the above mentioned tasks. I am talking about training people for 12-18 months in school, before getting them into an apprenticeship where they learn on the job under super vision.

Basically this would make todays doctor the first level of specialist. Antibiotics don't work, you get sent to the Doctor. If you are required to see another specialist, say a cardiologist, your test results, and you, would go to the doctor. The treatment the doctor orders would then be under the supervision of this new medical professional who would be given guidelines as to what to look for as far as side effects go, and to take care of possible blood work or other testing. Only if abnormalities showed up would you then be sent back to the doctor, for rediagnosis or a change in treatment.

The Doctors have the knowledge. What they don't have is the time. If the time consuming day to day mundane aspects of being a family doctor can be passed on to someone less expesnive, then the overall cost of healthcare would go down. Instead of paying for a doctor who has to recover 4 years of expensive medical school you would be seeing someone who is only paying off less than 2 years schooling.

Oops, I guess this went a bit off topic.

Ummm I will say yes this budget will help solve the declining popluation. After screwing half the country there is bound to be a spike in pregnancies.

[jbg]

Bang on. This post secondary trap is in my opinion a big hindrance on growth. Most stuff learned in post-secondary is not practical. Having so many students chained to student loans is hindering them. Do you honestly need a 4 yr. degree to sit in a cubicle? Learning on the job is by far the best way to learn. I think our society should realize that university degrees are not the be all and end all of the world.

I have been trying to explain to people for years how even highschool for some people is a waste of time that could be better put to use as an apprentice. If you want to go to college to become a teacher, doctor or lawyer great, go finish highschool. But what is learning Shakespeare, or quadratic equations going to do for you if you want to be a mechanic, chef, hairdresser, or bricklayer? I have yet to use anything from Othello to help me in my day to day activities.

*snip*

Oops, I guess this went a bit off topic.

Ummm I will say yes this budget will help solve the declining popluation. After screwing half the country there is bound to be a spike in pregnancies.

Not at all off topic. My only quibble is perhaps the people who "want to be a mechanic, chef, hairdresser, or bricklayer" should get some "liberal education" while they have the chance. If you know you're going to become a lawyer, the training winds up, in practicality, being on an apprentice basis. That's why I suggest shortening each round of schooling.

On reflection, because of the pace of people's maturation, maybe a better mix would be four years of High School, two years of college/university, and then significantly reduced professional school time, as outlined above.

[Saturn]

How appropriate for a bunch of neo-cons to go hysterical over a problem that does not exist.

Canada just topped the G8 in population growth over the last 5 years and all of the developed world (with the exception of Israel), so let's talk about "population implosion" and population decline.

So, will budget solve declining population? Dumb question - there is no declining population. Even if there were a declining population, why would it be a problem that needs solving? Population growth or decline doesn't matter. What matters is what you do with the population you have.

[scribblet]

How appropriate for a bunch of neo-cons to go hysterical over a problem that does not exist.

What 'bunch of neo-cons and how does that type of hyperbole add to good discussion?

Why would we want to solve any declining population, there's too many people now.

[madmax]

The latest budget may be quite good, possibly as good as a minority budget gets. Some are suggesting it is a panacea for the declining birth rate. I do not believe that a budget in Canada is going to reduce the population implosion.

JBG, I don't know how it works in your country. But here in Canada, a budget isn't how we make babies.

I will explain how it works in Private Mail

Wait a minute.... Is Viagra in the budget??? That might do it.

I stand corrected.

[jbg]

The latest budget may be quite good, possibly as good as a minority budget gets. Some are suggesting it is a panacea for the declining birth rate. I do not believe that a budget in Canada is going to reduce the population implosion.

JBG, I don't know how it works in your country. But here in Canada, a budget isn't how we make babies. I will explain how it works in Private Mail Wait a minute.... Is Viagra in the budget??? That might do it.

I stand corrected.

You and I agree. A certain poster, who will go nameless, seems to disagree. I was agreeing with you on that.

By the way, I understand there are major differences in the methods of procreation on each side of the 49th (I don't use the term "border" since that could easily mean your country's border with Denmark on Hans Island or in the Davis Strait).

[jbg]

How appropriate for a bunch of neo-cons to go hysterical over a problem that does not exist.

I am not a conservative or a "neo-con". Ans I am not "hysterical".

Canada just topped the G8 in population growth over the last 5 years and all of the developed world (with the exception of Israel), so let's talk about "population implosion" and population decline.

So, will budget solve declining population? Dumb question - there is no declining population. Even if there were a declining population, why would it be a problem that needs solving? Population growth or decline doesn't matter. What matters is what you do with the population you have.

If burka-clad immigrants are your idea of a desirable way to grow the population, more power to you. I prefer people who work to people who buy tons of fertilizer to blow up buildings in Toronto.

[Catchme]

Some are suggesting it is a panacea for the declining birth rate. I do not believe that a budget in Canada is going to reduce the population implosion.

There are only so many children in the future with marriage occurring when people are in their thirties

If some are suggesting it it as a panacea for declining birth rates it is because they are uneducated. No budget is going to reduce the implosion ever, in any country. Harper's tax gifts to families with 6+ children are merely more ways to make ALL other Canadians pay for the relgious right's excessive amounts of children.

Are you advocating for programs for people to marry younger?

[stignasty]

The Canadian population grew more rapidly between 2001 and 2006 (+5.4%) than in the previous intercensal period (+4.0%). (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/popdwell/Tables.cfm)

Is the real problem the growth of the immigrant population in comparison to the white "Canadian" population?

[Mad_Michael]

The Canadian population grew more rapidly between 2001 and 2006 (+5.4%) than in the previous intercensal period (+4.0%). (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/data/popdwell/Tables.cfm)

Is the real problem the growth of the immigrant population in comparison to the white "Canadian" population?

Definitely not. 'White' Canadians have been breeding below replacement level for decades - a phenomena that is found in every western nation.

A falling birthrate is a function of prosperity. Those who are prosperous breed less because children represent a financial liability rather than a financial resource as they are when one is poor.

Thus, I expect this budget will fail to affect birth rates in Canada just like every attempt made to change the birthrate has failed.

For example, giving out a $1000 tax credit for a kid that is going to cost you $200,000 doesn't sound like much of an incentive. Besides which, the decision to bear children is rarely driven by such rational considerations.

[jbg]

Are you advocating for programs for people to marry younger?

See my post earlier in this thread. Earlier graduation from whatever level of education one selects generally equals earlier independence from parents and earlier marriage.

[scribblet]

Why would we want to solve a declining populating - more people - more pollution etc. etc.

[kuzadd]

since the budget, is an amazing spending free for all, throwing taxpayers dollars around , complete with a typical bribe for quebec, to of course "vote conservative", look how much money we threw at ya!!!

I guess the conservative supporters gotta start the justification, LOL!

The Cons outspent the Libs, and here we see the Con supporters, who railed loudly against it,when this type of money went to Quebec, for starters, justifying it , any way possible.

same old, same old.

[scribblet]

The budget couldn't deliver a direct benefit to all, but most people will receive an indirect benefit in one way or the other. Get large SUVs off the road - benefit everyone, help the environment - benefit everyone. The list goes on. For a minority gov't it did a decent job of trying to satisfy everyone - not easy without a majority.

The Tories are still spending less than they bring in with revenues and arereturning record amounts to taxpayers along with paying down debt. This certainly demonstrates prudent and balanced fiscal management, the difference between Tories and the Liberals.

Of course, if this had been a Liberal budget it would have been applauded, of course to some it wouldn't matter what the CPC did - it would be wrong. Something like BDR, only this is HDR LOL

[kuzadd]

The budget couldn't deliver a direct benefit to all, but most people will receive an indirect benefit in one way or the other. Get large SUVs off the road - benefit everyone, help the environment - benefit everyone. The list goes on. For a minority gov't it did a decent job of trying to satisfy everyone - not easy without a majority.

The Tories are still spending less than they bring in with revenues and arereturning record amounts to taxpayers along with paying down debt. This certainly demonstrates prudent and balanced fiscal management, the difference between Tories and the Liberals.

Of course, if this had been a Liberal budget it would have been applauded, of course to some it wouldn't matter what the CPC did - it would be wrong. Something like BDR, only this is HDR LOL

same old, same old.

If it had been a liberal budget, the conservatives on this forum would have castigated it.

The shreiking would have been endless!

BUT, it is a conservative budget, that looks like a big spending, deficit potential/big government budget, all the very things the conservatives, had a liberal government, put the identical budget forth, would have decried.

Yawn, same old same old.

Don't use bogus name calling/ smear tactics,( shows your weakness) it is, what it is!!

call a spade a spade?

if this budget wasn't exactly what it is, big spending, deficit potential/big government budget, the conservatives, wouldn't be using such weak justifications to sell it!

Nothing reeks of an election bribe like the government throwing money around!

[Catchme]

The Cons outspent the Libs, and here we see the Con supporters, who railed loudly against it,when this type of money went to Quebec, for starters, justifying it , any way possible.

same old, same old.

No doubt, if this would've been the Liberals throwing money at PQ to buy votes, or try to, the CPC apologists would be screaming madly.

Now we here that they are not going to pay as much on our debt, it seems like fiscally wise the Liberals had them beat hands down.

Moreover, it is really reprehensible that the CPC and large families are digging into Canadian's to pay for raising children they cannot afford.

[scribblet]

The Cons outspent the Libs, and here we see the Con supporters, who railed loudly against it,when this type of money went to Quebec, for starters, justifying it , any way possible.

same old, same old.

No doubt, if this would've been the Liberals throwing money at PQ to buy votes, or try to, the CPC apologists would be screaming madly.

Now we here that they are not going to pay as much on our debt, it seems like fiscally wise the Liberals had them beat hands down.

Moreover, it is really reprehensible that the CPC and large families are digging into Canadian's to pay for raising children they cannot afford.

Huh? And what exactly is a nationalized day care program you espouse, if not everyone paying for kids they can't afford to look after themselves. The Liberals haven't been fiscally wise in eons, ROTFLMAO same old same old double standards.

[kuzadd]

The Cons outspent the Libs, and here we see the Con supporters, who railed loudly against it,when this type of money went to Quebec, for starters, justifying it , any way possible.

same old, same old.

No doubt, if this would've been the Liberals throwing money at PQ to buy votes, or try to, the CPC apologists would be screaming madly.

Now we here that they are not going to pay as much on our debt, it seems like fiscally wise the Liberals had them beat hands down.

Moreover, it is really reprehensible that the CPC and large families are digging into Canadian's to pay for raising children they cannot afford.

Huh? And what exactly is a nationalized day care program you espouse, if not everyone paying for kids they can't afford to look after themselves. The Liberals haven't been fiscally wise in eons, ROTFLMAO same old same old double standards.

well, I for one am glad you are at least recognizing, the same old, same old double standards, INC. the double standard perpetuated by the Conservative gov. and it's supporters!!!

Finally, a breakthrough!

[ScottSA]

well, I for one am glad you are at least recognizing, the same old, same old double standards, INC. the double standard perpetuated by the Conservative gov. and it's supporters!!!

Finally, a breakthrough!

I'm having a hard time figuring out how a tax break is the same as a tax expenditure. Allowing people to keep more of their money is the same as taking it away and spending it on things out of their control? How exactly does that work? Logically, I mean...not in Liberal Lalaland.

[scribblet]

well, I for one am glad you are at least recognizing, the same old, same old double standards, INC. the double standard perpetuated by the Conservative gov. and it's supporters!!!

Finally, a breakthrough!

Very disingenuous but nothing new there, I clearly recognize the same old same old Liberal and liberal supporters' double standards.

Nothing logical in Liberal la la land too bad there's no breakthough there LOL