Stephane Dion's deal with Elizabeth May in Nova Central

[madmax]

May couldn't knock off a defeated Liberal in a bye election with all the winds blowing in her direction.

Central Nova is going to be a different kettle of fish.

I think she is toast.

That may be so. I don't think the Liberals could win Central Nova unless there was a major sweep. I see this as neutralizing part of the Green threat and poking the NDP in the eye. You don't think so?

I think that was the intent of the strategy.

However this commentary from the Toronto Star Editorial suggests the results could play out differently.

And while the main aim of the pact is to get May a seat in Parliament, and knock off a prominent Tory, there's no guarantee even of that. MacKay took Central Nova in the Jan. 23, 2006, election by a healthy 17,134 votes. The Green party won just 671. Even if May scoops up every Liberal vote that was cast last time, all 10,349, MacKay could still emerge with a comfortable win. May has a steep hill to climb.

All of that is assuming Liberals in the riding don't balk at being told to vote Green and swing to the New Democrats, who took 13,861 votes last time. A few thousand defectors could hand the NDP a victory.

But regardless of how the votes may break, Dion already has paid a price for playing this questionable game. Some Liberals are puzzled at his tactics. Some feel betrayed. And some simply question his judgment

[scribblet]

Both the Liberal and Green vote combined weren't even close.

Is David Orchard working on May's campaign, if so then we know what this is really about and Dion is being played for a fool.

What if this is really a ploy of Dions to try and Unite the Left and muscle out the NDP.... the shadow knows

[Michael Bluth]

Is David Orchard working on May's campaign, if so then we know what this is really about and Dion is being played for a fool.

It's possible. The Greens are the only one of the four national parties that currently favours abrogating NAFTA.

That's still the only thing that turns Orchard's crank...

[jdobbin]

I think that was the intent of the strategy.

However this commentary from the Toronto Star Editorial suggests the results could play out differently.

It's possible that riding might be a steal for the NDP. I wouldn't be sorry either way.

[jdobbin]

It's a video. You get to watch the whole show, which was divided by segments. I went to the ctv news homesite. On your right are different panels, one of which says Mike Duffy. I clicked on that and got to a page where you can watch the video. That's where the segments are described.

I watched both of the segments and lost patience with it as it went on and on. One thing is certain: CTV needs to work on indexing its broadband network.

[jdobbin]

Dion dismisses criticism.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070414/...grit_green_deal

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion is dismissing any criticism within his party about a non-aggression deal struck with Green Leader Elizabeth May.

Dion has agreed not to run a Liberal candidate in May's Nova Scotia riding of Central Nova, which is currently held by Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay.

In exchange, May is endorsing Dion as the best candidate to become prime minister.

I still think a deal on a fairly secure Conservative riding is a fairly painless affair.

Just to be safe though, Dion needs to reassure his party, get nominations completed, continue aggressive fundraising and have a central campaign equipped to deliver an election platform. Side deals like this ultimately won't win an election.

[ScottSA]

In exchange, May is endorsing Dion as the best candidate to become prime minister.

Let's all have a rousing "so what?". Dion picks up a couple fringe votes while lashing the credibility of the Liberal party to a hundred or so whacked out loose cannon Green candidates, any one of whom can go off the rails by saying something stupid anyday. Or more likely, every day. And anyone who doesn't think the CPC isn't compiling every stupid utterance every enviromaniac candidate has ever made, with an eye thrashing Dion with them during the coming campaign, is incredibly naive.

[Michael Bluth]

Let's all have a rousing "so what?". Dion picks up a couple fringe votes while lashing the credibility of the Liberal party to a hundred or so whacked out loose cannon Green candidates, any one of whom can go off the rails by saying something stupid anyday. Or more likely, every day. And anyone who doesn't think the CPC isn't compiling every stupid utterance every enviromaniac candidate has ever made, with an eye thrashing Dion with them during the coming campaign, is incredibly naive.

This axis could backfire on Dion in so many ways.

It gives the media that much more reason to report every wing nut Green candidate. Now they get to ask Dion questions about them, he is the only 'major' party leader who isn't running a candidate against May after all.

What if some Liberals in the riding are pissed off enough to run an Independent-Liberal or some other such nonsense?

[geoffrey]

Why don't you explain How it's undemocratic?

I tend to agree with you on this one gc...

BUT, I can see where an argument can be made. If the riding association wants to run a candidate, and elected one to run for the Liberals in the riding, then it's pretty undemocratic for Dion to swoop in and axe that candidate to cut some sort of secretive deal that no one really understands.

Liberals can just vote for someone else. Not that it really matters in the big scheme of things, neither MacKay or Dion are in danger of losing their seats.

[Argus]

If you don't think the environment will be a major issue in the future, then you don't understand economics, ecology or Canadian politics. On a simple level, let me try this argument: as people get richer, they are cleaner. Canadians are rich.

They're also almost entirely ignorant about everything related to the environment. Most people have little clue what Kyoto is or what it would accomplish or what it would cost.

IOW, Dion is on the right side of this issue (and Harper knows this too because he replaced Ambrose with Baird). Quibble as the posters on this thread choose, dems da simple facts.

I think the Liberals always strive to appear to be on the right side of popular issues. I don't think they actually care about the environment. There's no evidence Dion is doing more than making mouth noises. He knew the Liberals weren't going to win this riding so he thought he could get some more publicity as an environemntally conscious guy by "stepping aside" to let the Green party leader get hammered there. Big deal. This is still the guy who opposed action on greenhouse gas emissions while in cabinet, did nothing about them while environment minister, and then thought naming his dog Kyoto would convince everyone how dedicated to reducing emissions he was.

The truth is in the pudding, however. Fourteen years after Kyoto the Liberal Party has yet to produce any kind of plan or process for actually trying, or even honestly attempting to meet the objectives they commited us to.

Further preduction: In the next election, Dion will make a lot of mouth noises about reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but whatever plans or programs he announces will be vague uncosted.

[Argus]

I think it's very democratic of the Libs to make room for the leader of a party that has difficulty getting representation in parliament despite the fact that it has around 10+% support in the country.

If the Liberals really wanted to do that they would have their candidate step aside in a riding they had a good chance of winning... not one they finished last in last time around and had no chance of taking.

[Argus]

A word to the leaders of the other fringe parties....the natural law party.....The communist party....the Canadian Action Party, The Marijauna Party and Christian Heritage Party of Canada....get your ridings of choice to Dion ASAP......

Given that local Liberals seem to understand what Dion is doing, it should be less of a problem for Dion than many think.

From media reports, all Liberal MPs and Senators from Nova Scotia were opposed to this. Dion ignored them.

The riding isn't a gift to the Greens. It never has been a safe seat for the Liberals. If Dion had given up a safe seat for the Greens, I think you might call him crazy. This is a strategy that could knock a Tory off.

Don't be absurd. This is about optics, nothing more. It's always about optics with the Liberals, a party of style not substance, the party of a man who opposes greenhouse gas emissions then calls his dog Kyoto to show how much he cares.

[jdobbin]

From media reports, all Liberal MPs and Senators from Nova Scotia were opposed to this. Dion ignored them.

Don't be absurd. This is about optics, nothing more. It's always about optics with the Liberals, a party of style not substance, the party of a man who opposes greenhouse gas emissions then calls his dog Kyoto to show how much he cares.

I saw those same senators and MPs talking after the new conference backing Dion.

You can be sure that you would disapprove even if Christ were to lead the party.

[gc1765]

BUT, I can see where an argument can be made. If the riding association wants to run a candidate, and elected one to run for the Liberals in the riding, then it's pretty undemocratic for Dion to swoop in and axe that candidate to cut some sort of secretive deal that no one really understands.

They can still nominate someone and run them as an independent. Dion can't do anything about that (nor should he be able to).

[Michael Bluth]

They can still nominate someone and run them as an independent. Dion can't do anything about that (nor should he be able to).

Dion could deregister the riding association. Pretty irrelevant though. If that riding association chose to nominate a candidate they would all be done in the party regardless.

[gc1765]

This is still the guy who opposed action on greenhouse gas emissions while in cabinet, did nothing about them while environment minister, and then thought naming his dog Kyoto would convince everyone how dedicated to reducing emissions he was.

This is probably true...

...however, how would you conservative-types feel if he had reduced emissions? perhaps brought in a carbon tax? shut down the oil industry? destroyed the economy (which is what would supposedly happen if we reduced our emissions)? Would you be happier if he had done these things?

[Michael Bluth]

You can be sure that you would disapprove even if Christ were to lead the party.

Sorta like you and the Conservatives?

[gc1765]

Dion could deregister the riding association. Pretty irrelevant though. If that riding association chose to nominate a candidate they would all be done in the party regardless.

Dion can't stop them from coming together to choose someone to nominate. Heck, they could probably even form their own party and call it "Liberal II" or something like that.

[ScottSA]

Further preduction: In the next election, Dion will make a lot of mouth noises about reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but whatever plans or programs he announces will be vague uncosted.

Don't go out on a limb or anything. I've been searching in vain since 1993 for a pre-election Liberal plan that isn't vague and uncosted. They don't exist. I'm not saying they haven't implimented their vague and uncosted schemes every once in a while, like the gun registry and that skullduggery with suitcases and cash, but they never really know what exactly they're getting into or how much it's gonna cost.

[Canuck E Stan]

LIBERAL FEUD BREAKS OPEN

Bourque was first to reveal a Liberal family feud between senior strategists Ray Heard and Scott Reid over the relative value of Citoyen Dion's leadership and whether or not it was time to pull the plug on Dion for the good of the party.

Now, Bourque has obtained a copy of an email sent by Ray Heard to a couple of reporters less than 48 hours ago, in which he refers to the hapless Dion-May deal as a "devil's pact" and where he offers his views "on the record":

"I say this on the record. Some Liberals feel today Mr. Dion should be forced to quit as leader. His deal with Elizabeth May, a social reactionary, is the very last straw. It denigrates the tradition that the Liberals are a national party. Though he was the architect of the Clarity Act, Dion is cynically know-towing to the decentralists in Quebec; he does not, like his predecessors, speak up for Canada any more.. He refused to support extending the terrorism provisions Bob Rae said were needed to find the Air India terrorists. He is fudging the commitment to fight terrorists in Afghanistan his own government made. He is surrounded by a bunch of control-freaks who will not accept the offers of veteran strategists, who date back to Trudeau, to help with policy. Both Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae are eminently qualified to succeed him before the next election and I cannot fault their supporters for plotting to dump him before its too late." - Ray Heard

And so the the little deal is becoming a big deal.The strategists are re-igniting the Liberal Family Feud.

[jdobbin]

And so the the little deal is becoming a big deal.The strategists are re-igniting the Liberal Family Feud.

I don't even know if Heard is an adviser to anyone in the party right now. Seems to me that he is just making mischief with rivals who have never met him.

[ScottSA]

And so the the little deal is becoming a big deal.The strategists are re-igniting the Liberal Family Feud.

I don't even know if Heard is an adviser to anyone in the party right now. Seems to me that he is just making mischief with rivals who have never met him.

That may be so, but are you suggesting his views are not shared by a number of Liberals? I don't know of many people who think this is a good idea from a political perspective, except of course for hardcore enviromaniacs.

Dion appears to be trying to follow the old advice that one ought to concentrate on strengthening one's core competencies, and his entire leadership platform was based on the "environment", so it would follow that he should bolster his position by using May. What he seems not to realize is that:

1 ) He represents the Liberal Party, and Liberals have an abysmal record on the environment anyway.

2 ) The "environment" was and might still be all the rage with voters in a season of not hearing about much else, but when the election comes it will fade into the background of more pressing issues, and if by some chance the Cons stay in power until 09 and the economy turns sour in that time, the "environment" will actually become a Liberal platform liability.

3 ) He may be concentrating on his core competency, but in doing so he is becoming a one trick pony himself.

4 ) The type of strident emotional hyperbole he used at the May announcement puts him perceptually in the camp of the radicals.

5 ) Most important, he has opened himself to a huge liability by associating himself with a neophyte fringe party full of loose cannons, and in the process focussed media attention on the Greens, who have managed to coast along as a sort of harmless nice guy underdog before. How many skeletons ARE in the Green closet? What's their economic platform? What does their intent to "tax pollution" really mean? Anyone there with a history of enviroterrorism? Anyone there who said or is about to say anything stunningly stupid? I don't know the answers to these questions, but now that the media is looking at them, I'll bet I'll know the answers before the next election.

Dion is an ass, and proves himself more asslike every day.

[gc1765]

Dion is an ass, and proves himself more asslike every day.

Try to follow the rules:

"Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it)."

Where's Ricki Bobbi to defend Dion against personal attacks?

[jdobbin]

That may be so, but are you suggesting his views are not shared by a number of Liberals? I don't know of many people who think this is a good idea from a political perspective, except of course for hardcore enviromaniacs.

Dion appears to be trying to follow the old advice that one ought to concentrate on strengthening one's core competencies, and his entire leadership platform was based on the "environment", so it would follow that he should bolster his position by using May. What he seems not to realize is that:

1 ) He represents the Liberal Party, and Liberals have an abysmal record on the environment anyway.

2 ) The "environment" was and might still be all the rage with voters in a season of not hearing about much else, but when the election comes it will fade into the background of more pressing issues, and if by some chance the Cons stay in power until 09 and the economy turns sour in that time, the "environment" will actually become a Liberal platform liability.

3 ) He may be concentrating on his core competency, but in doing so he is becoming a one trick pony himself.

4 ) The type of strident emotional hyperbole he used at the May announcement puts him perceptually in the camp of the radicals.

5 ) Most important, he has opened himself to a huge liability by associating himself with a neophyte fringe party full of loose cannons, and in the process focussed media attention on the Greens, who have managed to coast along as a sort of harmless nice guy underdog before. How many skeletons ARE in the Green closet? What's their economic platform? What does their intent to "tax pollution" really mean? Anyone there with a history of enviroterrorism? Anyone there who said or is about to say anything stunningly stupid? I don't know the answers to these questions, but now that the media is looking at them, I'll bet I'll know the answers before the next election.

Dion is an ass, and proves himself more asslike every day.

I have no idea what prominent Liberals are saying because I can't find any who are now speaking out after the policy has been made. We heard a few Nova Scotia Liberals express caution and surprise at the onset but now I can't find anything.

Dion himself has said there is no other aid except for this courtesy.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics...db5236e&k=47443

Stephane Dion is ruling out any extra measures to help the Green Party beyond his controversial deal with Elizabeth May.

Dion described Saturday his decision not to run a Liberal in Central Nova where May, the Green leader, is seeking a seat as "an agreement between two leaders," suggesting he was not planning further aid.

I don't see where Dion has say over who the Greens choose their candidates.

As for the rest of your rant, well, it isn't like you were planning to vote for either of them anyways.

Elizabeth May has been trying for weeks to talk to Layton about coming up with some shared ideas on taking the Conservatives but Layton seems content to work with the Tories instead.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Green Party Leader Elizabeth May says she's been trying for months to get the NDP to talk about ways the two parties can co-operate on shared priorities, but the party has kept the door firmly closed to her overtures.

She was reacting to NDP criticism over the announcement this week by May and Liberal Leader Stephane Dion that neither leader would run an opponent in the other's riding.

May is challenging Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay in his Central Nova riding, hoping to win her party's first seat in parliament.

The NDP has called the move undemocratic, and former party leader Ed Broadbent revealed Friday that May had called former Canadian ambassador to the UN Stephen Lewis to try and get him to broker a deal with New Democrat Leader Jack Layton.

She admitted she has been frustrated with Layton's lack of co-operation, and turned to her old friend Lewis to try and open up the lines of communication.

"What the hell is wrong with Jack Layton that he can't answer a phone call?" she said on CTV's Question Period.

[ScottSA]

That may be so, but are you suggesting his views are not shared by a number of Liberals? I don't know of many people who think this is a good idea from a political perspective, except of course for hardcore enviromaniacs.

Dion appears to be trying to follow the old advice that one ought to concentrate on strengthening one's core competencies, and his entire leadership platform was based on the "environment", so it would follow that he should bolster his position by using May. What he seems not to realize is that:

1 ) He represents the Liberal Party, and Liberals have an abysmal record on the environment anyway.

2 ) The "environment" was and might still be all the rage with voters in a season of not hearing about much else, but when the election comes it will fade into the background of more pressing issues, and if by some chance the Cons stay in power until 09 and the economy turns sour in that time, the "environment" will actually become a Liberal platform liability.

3 ) He may be concentrating on his core competency, but in doing so he is becoming a one trick pony himself.

4 ) The type of strident emotional hyperbole he used at the May announcement puts him perceptually in the camp of the radicals.

5 ) Most important, he has opened himself to a huge liability by associating himself with a neophyte fringe party full of loose cannons, and in the process focussed media attention on the Greens, who have managed to coast along as a sort of harmless nice guy underdog before. How many skeletons ARE in the Green closet? What's their economic platform? What does their intent to "tax pollution" really mean? Anyone there with a history of enviroterrorism? Anyone there who said or is about to say anything stunningly stupid? I don't know the answers to these questions, but now that the media is looking at them, I'll bet I'll know the answers before the next election.

Dion is an ass, and proves himself more asslike every day.

I have no idea what prominent Liberals are saying because I can't find any who are now speaking out after the policy has been made. We heard a few Nova Scotia Liberals express caution and surprise at the onset but now I can't find anything.

I'm sure that's because they've all realized that Dion is Infallable Leader and have thrown their support behind him 100%. I'm sure there's no problem at all.