Is the NDP waving the white flag?

[fellowtraveller]

Or is Pat Martin auditioning for Jack Laytons job already? You'd have to think that Layton has lost his grip on the party if Martin gets away with this kind of public speculation. The last person to speak frankly about her beliefs was MP Bev Desjarlais, and she was dumped.

Or perhaps Martin is angling for Stephane Dions job?

"THE federal New Democratic Party could face the end of its 46-year existence if it doesn't make significant gains in the next election, one of the party's members of Parliament from Manitoba is warning.

Pat Martin, MP for the riding of Winnipeg Centre, said recently his party must lift itself out of low poll numbers and replace weak messages with bold in the federal election many observers predict will come this year.

Otherwise, Martin added, party faithful could be forced to admit the NDP may never be anything more than a political fringe player and fold its tent for good. "

some candid moments here

[fellowtraveller]

It will be interesting to see if Martin gets drummed out of the NDP for voicing his opinions a la Bev Desjarlais.

I'll have to scoot over to Babble to see if this has raised a ruckus.

[sideshow]

they should pull a "reform-alliance" and get back into the liberals.

[dlkenny]

Or is Pat Martin auditioning for Jack Laytons job already? You'd have to think that Layton has lost his grip on the party if Martin gets away with this kind of public speculation. The last person to speak frankly about her beliefs was MP Bev Desjarlais, and she was dumped.

Or perhaps Martin is angling for Stephane Dions job?

"THE federal New Democratic Party could face the end of its 46-year existence if it doesn't make significant gains in the next election, one of the party's members of Parliament from Manitoba is warning.

Pat Martin, MP for the riding of Winnipeg Centre, said recently his party must lift itself out of low poll numbers and replace weak messages with bold in the federal election many observers predict will come this year.

Otherwise, Martin added, party faithful could be forced to admit the NDP may never be anything more than a political fringe player and fold its tent for good. "

some candid moments here

Well, I don't know what the outcome to this would be. I suppose it would be an amalgamation of the left of centre parties, much like the Reform/Alliance and the PC Party did. This may be good for them, it would give the liberals a monopoly on the left of centre vote (except the Bloc Quebecois) and they'd likely get another majority government. As for the state of politics in this country I think it would be a bad thing because I feel that we need a Conservative mandate for a long enough time to force positive changes in the liberal ranks, some housecleaning and a new platform. Further, the Conservatives have some very progressive ideas that we should maybe look at...sometimes change is good.

[Michael Bluth]

Well, I don't know what the outcome to this would be. I suppose it would be an amalgamation of the left of centre parties, much like the Reform/Alliance and the PC Party did. This may be good for them, it would give the liberals a monopoly on the left of centre vote (except the Bloc Quebecois) and they'd likely get another majority government. As for the state of politics in this country I think it would be a bad thing because I feel that we need a Conservative mandate for a long enough time to force positive changes in the liberal ranks, some housecleaning and a new platform. Further, the Conservatives have some very progressive ideas that we should maybe look at...sometimes change is good.

Clearly any merger won't come about before the next election. It would take a Conservative majority before it would even be considered.

If Mulroney's two majorities weren't enough to force a serious consideration of a Liberal-NDP merger, I'm not sure what would have to happen for that to take place.

[madmax]

Good Article. Pat Martin speaking his mind again.

And here is more

Pat Martin’s clarification

WINNIPEG – “Yesterday I spoke with a reporter from the Winnipeg Free Press. It was reported I favour a merger of the New Democratic and Liberal parties. I do not. I wish to take this opportunity to clarify my remarks and clear up any misunderstanding.”

“I didn’t suggest that New Democrats should merge with the Liberal Party. I believe that progressives across Canada should unite behind a strong vehicle for change and demand a better government. That vehicle for change is the New Democratic Party.”

“That is why I have run in the past four elections for the New Democrats and intend to run for the New Democrats in the next election — whenever that may be. We need to defend the values that we believe in and I believe that under Jack’s leadership the NDP has great opportunity to grow even further.”

“I can hear the cynical out there scream ‘backtrack’ already. But, let me assure you. As the New Democrat MP who holds the seat once held by Stanley Knowles and J.S. Woodsworth, a pioneer of this great country and my party, my commitment to social democracy and the NDP has never been greater.”

“Ordinary Canadians need us to fight for them in Ottawa — to fight for their values, to fight against government corruption, to fight against corporate elites who would turn our country into their own playground.”

“This is the NDP that rewrote a federal budget — that cancelled Liberal corporate tax cuts to invest in education, housing and the environment. This is the NDP that’s working to rewrite the Conservatives’ lame Clean Air Act to produce environmental legislation with teeth.”

“This is the NDP that has more than doubled its caucus and tripled its popular vote in the last two elections, and let me assure you again: we’re just getting started.”

[jdobbin]

It will be interesting to see if Martin gets drummed out of the NDP for voicing his opinions a la Bev Desjarlais.

I'll have to scoot over to Babble to see if this has raised a ruckus.

Desjarlais was challenged over not voting the same as the party on a whipped vote. Martin votes the party line.

Desjarlais was so well liked by many though that she was asked to work by a Tory cabinet minister as an official.

What Martin is is a hot headed jackass. He practically explodes in anger over every little thing. He seethes with partisan nastiness. When he went after Winnipeg Harvest's David Northcott for running for the Liberals, he called the man a traitor as well as other venom filled words.

[jdobbin]

they should pull a "reform-alliance" and get back into the liberals.

They never were in the Liberals. Why would they go back?

[Michael Bluth]

What Martin is is a hot headed jackass. He practically explodes in anger over every little thing. He seethes with partisan nastiness. When he went after Winnipeg Harvest's David Northcott for running for the Liberals, he called the man a traitor as well as other venom filled words.

Hmmm, hot-heated you say?

Quick to cut people off for disagreeing with him you say?

Pot-Kettle-Black

Pretty sad that such a "venom-filled" reaction comes from a man making some very frank and honest comments about his party. Martin definitely makes some good points.

Too bad we have the expected shoot the messenger response.

[scribblet]

Just curious, but if the NDP stay the same, or lose seats do you think Layton will or shouled step down?

[Canadian Blue]

I hope Layton steps down, they need a newer, better leader. So far I haven't been impressed by Jack Layton, and I'm sure their are a number of candidates who would be up for the job. Personally, I'd like to see Peter Stoffer take the job as leader.

[Michael Bluth]

Just curious, but if the NDP stay the same, or lose seats do you think Layton will or shouled step down?

Stay the same, or lose just a few probably not.

If they drop below 25 or seats then probably...

[Canadian Blue]

The NDP is starting to run some pre-election ads. It's good that they are putting more of a focus on issues that more Canadian's care about. However I think that with the Conservatives shedding the "scary,scary" image, more Canadian's will be prepared to vote for the New Democratic Party and Green Party. The last poll I saw had the NDP jump 2 points.

http://www.ndp.ca/leadership

[sideshow]

they should pull a "reform-alliance" and get back into the liberals.

They never were in the Liberals. Why would they go back?

technically, neither were reform/alliance in the tories. just words. different parties, same concepts. thats why they can all cross the floor so easy-just a different seat on the same bus.

[sideshow]

its funny, because martin isnt saying anything that buzz hargrove didnt say last election-and it got him kicked out in ontario. lol!

layton is ok, but he should go. the ndp has some great ideas, but are dying out-people that vote dont care about social programs. and those that use the programs dont vote.

[Michael Bluth]

The NDP is starting to run some pre-election ads. It's good that they are putting more of a focus on issues that more Canadian's care about. However I think that with the Conservatives shedding the "scary,scary" image, more Canadian's will be prepared to vote for the New Democratic Party and Green Party. The last poll I saw had the NDP jump 2 points.

http://www.ndp.ca/leadership

The ads are good.

The NDP is setting themselves up as an alternative.

How much money do they have for an ad buy?

[jdobbin]

technically, neither were reform/alliance in the tories. just words. different parties, same concepts. thats why they can all cross the floor so easy-just a different seat on the same bus.

I've known very few federal Liberals who crossed to become NDP. I do know several NDP who have crossed to become Liberals.

[Michael Bluth]

I've known very few federal Liberals who crossed to become NDP. I do know several NDP who have crossed to become Liberals.

Look at drops in levels of support historically.

The NDP are setting themselves up as a true alternative to the Liberals as a centre-left party in Canada.

[fellowtraveller]

I've known very few federal Liberals who crossed to become NDP. I do know several NDP who have crossed to become Liberals.

Look at drops in levels of support historically.

The NDP are setting themselves up as a true alternative to the Liberals as a centre-left party in Canada.

The NDP are really, really between a rock and a hard place then...... If they try to set themselves up as Liberal-Lite, the Libs will counter with a persuasive campaign saying" If centre/left is where you feel most comfy, why not vote for us, a Party that has a chance of governing?". I don't think Jack has anything glib to say in response.

Turning to the center is a very dangerous strategy for the NDP. On the other hand, it is a very productive strategy for the Conservatives.

[Michael Bluth]

The NDP are really, really between a rock and a hard place then...... If they try to set themselves up as Liberal-Lite, the Libs will counter with a persuasive campaign saying" If centre/left is where you feel most comfy, why not vote for us, a Party that has a chance of governing?". I don't think Jack has anything glib to say in response.

The Liberals did that under the *scary* *scary* *scary* twice. Saved their arses in 2004, they lost in 2006.

Layton could make a serious run. "Why vote Liberal for a middle of the road opposition? Why not vote NDP for a truly 'progressive' leader of the official opposition?"

I don't believe that crap, but that's what I'd do if I were Layton and really wanted to pass the Liberals.

[jdobbin]

The NDP are really, really between a rock and a hard place then...... If they try to set themselves up as Liberal-Lite, the Libs will counter with a persuasive campaign saying" If centre/left is where you feel most comfy, why not vote for us, a Party that has a chance of governing?". I don't think Jack has anything glib to say in response.

Turning to the center is a very dangerous strategy for the NDP. On the other hand, it is a very productive strategy for the Conservatives.

I think that any thoughts of the NDP supplanting the Liberals nationally runs head long into Quebec where the NDP does poorly time and time again. They will have to make their most significant gains in Ontario which isn't easy no matter how you look at it.

[geoffrey]

I'll let PolyNewb take my spin on this one, I'll leave it at this.

For some reason Jack has brown eyes in the ads. He clearly doesn't have brown eyes in his non-ads.

What up?

[madmax]

I've known very few federal Liberals who crossed to become NDP. I do know several NDP who have crossed to become Liberals.

Look at drops in levels of support historically.

The NDP are setting themselves up as a true alternative to the Liberals as a centre-left party in Canada.

I don't know if the NDP are setting themselves up as the "Centre Left" party. What I tend to read on these forum threads lately, is that the Liberals since electing Dion have moved further off the radar screen. Speaking to niche issues and targeting Green/NDP issues.

It appears the NDP are targeting issues outside of their niche issues, and have to do this to work with the CPC government. Since Pat Martin is the source of this thread. He worked with the CPC and it appeared the Libs where getting in the way of what the government was trying to accomplish.

The NDP wanted to get the "Clean Air Act" cleaned up vs a DOA and the Liberals cried foul. When the liberals did get their private members bill through, that the NDP supported, it showed how hollow this piece of legislation really was and opened another weakness in Liberal Policy. The NDP still have to work with the CPC to get the Clean Air Act turned into something that will pass.

I also see Peter Stoffer name mentioned. He is a great watchdog and holds the government accountable on issues that would be in their favour to address regardless. Our defence ships need fuel. Now theres a no brainer and one that Canadians and CPC would support.

These are mainstream issues that the NDP haven't demonstrated interest in since Ed Broadbent. The NDP doesn't appear to have moved away from their traditional positions as much as trying to broaden their appeal.

I don't see this as any different then what the CPC are doing. They are moving more towards the mainstream Canadian, but the people don't know if this is because it is a requirement to govern or a requirement to get a majority.

I don't think Pat Martin has said anything out of the ordinary. I believe media and spin doctors might want it to appear more then what it is.

As for Buzz Hargrove, he had been campaigning against the NDP for quite sometime, but never as openly as when he travelled with Paul Martin. I believe his membership are none to pleased, that he can't get a meeting with Stephen Harper.

And yet, I believe their could be some common ground with regards to China, the CPC, the CAW leadership and the NDP.

Once an election is called, the Liberal Machine will wake up. Find out what the polls are saying and the Liberals will be there.

[Michael Bluth]

Once an election is called, the Liberal Machine will wake up. Find out what the polls are saying and the Liberals will be there.

Really? Why didn't that machine wake up for the last election?

Shouldn't Canada's Natural Governing Party have had an easy time with a Conservative leader as weak as Stephen Harper?

[madmax]

Once an election is called, the Liberal Machine will wake up. Find out what the polls are saying and the Liberals will be there.

Really? Why didn't that machine wake up for the last election?

Because the polls suggested that corruption and accountability were the top issues. The Liberals had no credibility with the public. No counter to this, and their attacks failed against Harper and against the NDP.

Shouldn't Canada's Natural Governing Party have had an easy time with a Conservative leader as weak as Stephen Harper?

A little bait here? If Harper hadn't been the leader in 2004, the Conservatives may have done better. Calling the Prime Minister a supporter of child porn really did the party in during the final week. In 2006 Harper had an easier time managing his image. The Liberals had a more difficult time with theirs. The issues of Liberal Arrogance and Corruption had been around during the Reform/Alliance period, and was really attacked by the Joe Clark Progressive Conservatives better than the former party. But the Conservatives where able to capitalize on this by 2006 without Harper putting his foot in his mouth.

I am not certain that the Liberals didn't have an easy time with Harper as leader. I believe that the liberals should have been reduced to 12 seats. (I would have said 2 seats but that's been done before).

Something Conservatives should be very aware of.