$1B for Canadian farmers

[geoffrey]

Small block? It's 2% of the population. How many voters does Harper need to get to majority territory?

True. I think most farmers vote that way anyway though, at least in Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba where most of them live. I suppose you can still convince the Ontario and Quebec farmers.

[Who's Doing What?]

And yet you already said you will still vote for these guys again.

By still giving them your support you are in effect condoning their actions.

I know, Well it's the lesser of two evils.

You could always vote Green in protest.

[blueblood]

Small block? It's 2% of the population. How many voters does Harper need to get to majority territory?

True. I think most farmers vote that way anyway though, at least in Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba where most of them live. I suppose you can still convince the Ontario and Quebec farmers.

If you seen the socialist paradise the Quebec farmers live in you'd pull your hair out.

[blueblood]

And yet you already said you will still vote for these guys again.

By still giving them your support you are in effect condoning their actions.

I know, Well it's the lesser of two evils.

You could always vote Green in protest.

Hah!! Green my ass, the Green candidate in my area is the biggest joke ever. Hog barns are evil, big companies investing is evil. That clown just about cost us a hog barn facility that employs 10 unskilled people. This guy wanted to take us back to the 1800's as far as farming went, much worse than the Libs or NDP.

Okay the lesser of 4 evils then. The tories have other policies and they were the ones who are kickstarting the biofuels program.

[noahbody]

I'd rather see handouts to Canadians than handout in envelopes.

[blueblood]

I'd rather see handouts to Canadians than handout in envelopes.

Or he could have went to Petro-Can and NFLD, here's 1 billion dollars, pop up an oil rig in the Hibernia field or the other one nearby.

1. The gov't saves money by doling out less welfare cheques

2. The gov't gets money from income taxes from workers and the revenues.

But no instead of investing money, they'd rather give it away on welfare type of things, it's ridiculous.

[rrabbit]

Hey, aren't there any farmers here who can answer my questions I asked earlier in the thread? I genuinely want to hear their side of things!

And by the way biofuels are a fantasy. They'll never ever work as a stand alone energy industry. As it is in its current state biofuels only works with massive inputs of traditional fossil fuels. For ethanol the big energy hole is the distillation step. We use natural gas with nearly equivalent energy content to distill ethanol. As well the use of ethanol as a fraction of gasoline is a blending trick that allows the making of more gasoline from a barrel of crude. By itself ethanol is such a light, low energy content hydrocarbon you would have to fill your gas tank up four or five times more often than with regular gasoline to drive a given distance.

Biodiesel is similiar in energy inputs. The big energy hole step is seperating out the fatty glycerides that would foul an IC engine. Doing this step requires about 200 to 300 mls of ethanol per litre of grain oil and the manufacture of about five grams of sodium hydroxide. The yield is about 700 to 800 mls of biodiesel. I bet many of you didn't know it takes ethanol to make biodiesel. You can run a diesel engine on unrefined vegetable oil for awhile, but, a few tanks of running on it will foul the energy with heavy carbon deposits to the point of malfunctioning.

Add to all of the above the energy input needed; to til and plant a field, the manufacture and application of fertilizers and pesticides, the harvesting and seperation of grain from stalk and chaff (combining), the trucking to biofuel plant and the trucking back to farm to begin the whole cycle over again. There's no way the loop can ever be closed to become self-sufficient, much less have a marketable surplus from the cycle. Fertilizer like anhydrous ammonia is pure petroleum industry product.

Even at the price per litre of human consumable alcohol its never been economical to burn whiskey to make more whiskey. If it were, the traditional distilling industry would have started doing it a long time ago.

The only reason it works now is because we have huge amounts of natural gas and coal to burn in the distilling step. If the distillery isn't 21st century state of the art ultra efficient, all that really happens is the biofuel becomes a mere storage medium for the energy that was originally stored in the fossil fuels. In the end we'll all just end up paying more for home heating as natural gas supplies are used up by the industry.

I'm not sure how this sucker's ride on the biofuels bandwagon got started. Thermochemistry always showed it was a poor cycle. Maybe it was desperation for trips to the Caribbean and a shiny new 3/4 ton every year? Well, perhaps a little shilling on the part of the petro-industry trying to milk more gasoline out of a barrel of crude played a role.

The United States would have to plant 97% of it arable land in corn for ethanol to meet current gasoline and diesel consumpotion levels. This would be with burning something else for the distilling step.

[Topaz]

This is why I don't like Harper making announcments like that, it creates problems.

I wonder what Harper is going to do for the tobacco farmers in Ontario who need help changing over to grow something else instead of tobacco. They are suffering financially and help a hand up not a hand out to make the change. It seems impossible that tobacco will not be grown here in Canada.

[Saturn]

$1B for Canadian farmers...If the budget passes

Don't get too excited...The budget won't pass.

[madmax]

$1B for Canadian farmers...If the budget passes

Don't get too excited...The budget won't pass.

You have a crystal ball?

[Michael Bluth]

Don't get too excited...The budget won't pass.

You have a crystal ball?

More like a warped sense of reality.

Why wouldn't the budget pass?

Dion and Duceppe are on record saying they don't want to force an election...

[rrabbit]

Since no one dares deny it I guess it is all about trips to the Carribean and Hawaii, big impressive farm houses and a shiny new 3/4 ton every year.

Thanks for the clearing up that up for me! I'll pass it along to my pals here in the city, some of whom are politicians!

[Saturn]

Why wouldn't the budget pass?

Dion and Duceppe are on record saying they don't want to force an election...

Maybe they don't but Harper wants one. That budget won't pass.

[sideshow]

I don't know why they don't just abolish the wheat board and get rid of ALL grants, subsidies and handouts to farmers? Let them sink or swim on their own. They can find their own customers on their own, they can let the "free market" decide their fates-and if it doesnt work out, Walmart can buy their farms.

[Posit]

BTW did we tell you that we are going to locate a mega-farm in your neighbourhood? Yep. Its on the smaller side with only 50,000 hogs.

[jdobbin]

I don't know why they don't just abolish the wheat board and get rid of ALL grants, subsidies and handouts to farmers? Let them sink or swim on their own. They can find their own customers on their own, they can let the "free market" decide their fates-and if it doesnt work out, Walmart can buy their farms.

Perhaps they can cut the money to the oil industry as well for the tar sands.

[geoffrey]

Perhaps they can cut the money to the oil industry as well for the tar sands.

Those subsidies are a sign of bigger problems in Canadian policy. If you can pull oil out of the ground and sell it for profit, your taxes are simply too high. All industries are impacted by this, especially those that compete internationally and don't get the breaks.

[blueblood]

Well, I don't know. The tobacco boys want an unsustainable amt. of money to fix their problem. We can't cherrypick which farmers get money and which don't. I don't know enough about tobacco farming to give an opinion.

I don't know why they don't just abolish the wheat board and get rid of ALL grants, subsidies and handouts to farmers? Let them sink or swim on their own. They can find their own customers on their own, they can let the "free market" decide their fates-and if it doesnt work out, Walmart can buy their farms.

Try telling that to the states and europeans. "Walmart" buying everyone out will just make everyone poorer.

BTW did we tell you that we are going to locate a mega-farm in your neighbourhood? Yep. Its on the smaller side with only 50,000 hogs.

So your against employing people and investing into a region? No wonder western Canada is succeeding.

Drop small business taxes and enable more biofuel and we'll have another successful industry in Canada.

[geoffrey]

Why wouldn't the budget pass?

Dion and Duceppe are on record saying they don't want to force an election...

Maybe they don't but Harper wants one. That budget won't pass.

Saturn is right.