Murderers - Welcome to Canada

[guyser]

Or this scenario, 11 serial killers were caught, judging by their psych patterns they would do it again. They were all executed. 1 turned out to be just an accomplice and didn't kill anyone. Was it worth it to execute the accomplice when at the time there was sufficient evidence to get the guilty verdict?

Guy Paul Morin , David Millegard are two that would be put to death. You ok with that?

Let us look at Illinois shall we? Twenty five (25) people convicted of murder and put on death row. Thirteen of them were proven false and exonerated. This was done in a state whose Governer is a death penalty advocate, but he wants it done without error so he stopped all executions until all cases reviewed.

13 innocents out of 25 seems like a pretty good reason to keep executing people.....?.....I think not.

There is also this...."Nov. 18-2002: A letter signed by more than 650 Illinois lawyers urges

Ryan to commute the sentences all Death Row prisoners to life without parole"

Followed by "Dec. 1: Twenty-one retired judges, including former Criminal Division Presiding Judge Richard J. Fitzgerald, urge commutation of all Illinois death sentences"

[Hydraboss]

And what about all the headlines:

"Convicted murderer, ____________, while out on parole killed again."

"________, who has 126 past charges and 56 convictions, including violent crimes, is on trial again for murder."

Etc, etc.....

What about all the petitions signed by literally tens of thousands of Canadians asking for the laws of Canada to be changed? How come their opinions don't matter, but 650 lawyers opinions do?

And the age old questions that everyone that is against capital punishment refuses to answer:

"What if it were your 6 year old daughter that they found?"

[guyser]

And what about all the headlines:

"Convicted murderer, ____________, while out on parole killed again."

"________, who has 126 past charges and 56 convictions, including violent crimes, is on trial again for murder."

Etc, etc.....

What about it? Those should be addressed by the courts . Put a dangerous offender status on them , that keeps them in jail likely for the rest of their natural life.

What about all the petitions signed by literally tens of thousands of Canadians asking for the laws of Canada to be changed? How come their opinions don't matter, but 650 lawyers opinions do?

And the age old questions that everyone that is against capital punishment refuses to answer:

"What if it were your 6 year old daughter that they found?"

Those lawyers were from Illinois and Illinois was known for some funny shenanigans in court cases. My point being that lawyers know the system a lot better than anyone outside of a court or judicial robe than the rest of us. I will allow then that they see injustice and wrongful convictions firsthand . Thus is they, and the Judges who signed that also, felt that the system was not fair and that innocents were being executed

I know of no petitions you mention. I will give you that they exist . But as I pointed out earlier, the last poll I found said it was pretty evenly split, and with the advance of DNA, that seems to be the trend.

This is not the wild west. I do not have a say in the justice the killer of my child should get. That is why we have society and judges to weigh the proper punishment. Society ( and more of them all the time) and all three political parties have deemed execution barbaric, the exception is the one that is no longer around, the Reform .

[myata]

I'm not sure why this thread drifted into a discussion of capital punishment. No matter its benefits (or otherwise), this country can no more solve the problem of the world that supports it, than can it deal with the universal hunger. Sure we should not send these people to certain death, but I'm strongly against inviting them here with open arms either.

If we really want to help people in distress (to the extent of possible), a plane to Darfur, Thailand, any other "hot spot" can bring in hundreds of people who'd otherwise have slim very chance of surviving. Not wasting precious resources of thugs who committed all kind of crimes in their countries, then went around abusing the system courtesy of Canada's and the people they robbed in their home countries. Think of it: a regular genuine refugee simply wouldn't have the money or documents to buy a plain ticket to get here. Or pay thousands to immigration lawyers.

[Remiel]

You have to be on some pretty good crack to advocate executing six innocent people to save a child. Maybe you should see a mental health professional about that one.

[Argus]

The death penalty has always been supported by a substantial majority of the Canadian people. Virtually every poll taken over thirty or forty years has said as much. When the death penalty was abolished (in 1976 not 1961)) the great majority of Canadians were opposed, and the great majority continue to want it returned. However, the elites, insulated from care or concern about crime or justice, are steadfast in opposition. There were no conservatives parties when the death penalty was formally abolished, and the liberal leaders of the Liberal and Progressive Conservative parties twisted arms to make sure that the bill passed against the wishes of the electorate.

Except for the last poll which showed that 48% for, 46%against and 6% unsure.(1998)

That was not "the last" poll. That was the only poll in thirty years which showed support for the death penalty anywhere near fifty percent. More recent polls have shown it back up into the high sixties/low seventies. The will of the people is fairly clear on this.

But I wonder why murder rates seem to have gone down?

They've gone down in the states too. It's the product of having fewer young men around, statistically speaking. Also, the courts are interpreting murder more strictly than they used. The definition has narrowed.

Since abolition 6 Canadians previously convicted of 1st degree murder have been exonerated .You know I would think most Canadians would rather one live than 6 die without merit.

Yeah, but most Canadians want to see justice done and want to be protected from violent scum, and our system is not set up to do either of those things. If they would just keep murderers in prison forever there would be far fewer people supporting the death penalty. But no, that wouldn't be "humane".

[Argus]

It means that if you're going to act like a pompous ass you ought to at least have your facts in order.

Coming from you that is funny.

Why? I might act like a pompous ass but at least I know my facts. You don't even have that going for you.

[guyser]

Why? I might act like a pompous ass but at least I know my facts. You don't even have that going for you.

Not a bad try for you. Have a good rest and try again k ?

You dont want me to embarass you about your facts

[geoffrey]

And what if the question were "would you rather one live and be able to kill one child than 6 die without merit?"

Let the child die. One innocent child vs. six innocent people.

Not much of a toss up in my books.

Capital punishment isn't much of a deterrent either IMO... rational people don't commit murder, those killing people can't grasp the entire scope of their actions, definitely not their sentence.

[blueblood]

Jeez I got my question sidestepped and not a direct answer. Personally I'd choose the lesser of two evils which was the point of the question, but you make the good point of the possibility of new evidence which is why we don't execute. Let me rephrase the question to replace execute to slap on dangerous offender status. Say 11 guys were caught and were serial killers who would definetely kill again. 1 turned out to be an accomplice, but at court there was sufficient evidence to charge them all, would you send all 11 to jail for the rest of their lives? The thing that's alarming is how some very dangerous criminals don't get the dangerous offender tag put on them. Mom Boucher comes to mind (or did he get it?)

[Hydraboss]

And what if the question were "would you rather one live and be able to kill one child than 6 die without merit?"

Let the child die. One innocent child vs. six innocent people.

Not much of a toss up in my books.

Capital punishment isn't much of a deterrent either IMO... rational people don't commit murder, those killing people can't grasp the entire scope of their actions, definitely not their sentence.

And if that one that was released killed 10 kids, or 20 kids, or raped 8 women? Is this just a matter of hitting the right number like a negotiation? As you said, rational people don't commit murder...then why are we wasting time trying to rehabilitate these animals before we release them on statutory? How many murderers and child rapists are repeat offenders? Does anyone have stats? The fact that we are actually talking about 6 innocent men vs an innumerable amount of repeat serious offenders begs closer scrutiny. One murderer for six innocents? Maybe, maybe not. What about 1000 repeat murderers for six innocent men? What about the, oh, 2000 innocents murdered by that 1000 for six innocent men? What number is enough for you?

I bet I know. One of your immediate family for six innocent men. I know there isn't a father anywhere that wouldn't make that trade.

[Remiel]

Are you volunteering to be executed in case we decide to reinstate the death penalty, Hydraboss? No? I didn't think so.

[Hydraboss]

Remiel, if you want to blow it to the ridiculous...sure. My life for my daughter's. In a heartbeat. No question.

Any other insight you would like to share? Questions? Comments?

[Remiel]

No, no, no. You don't get to cop out like that. Most parents would give their life to directly save their child. No, would you offer yourself and say, five of your closest buddies, in exchange for the life of a kid you've never met? Oh, but it gets better. Would you give yourself and your five closest friends for a HYPOTHETICAL child? Because really, your entire premise is based on a child that might live, not will live.