Is it time for our charter to be re-ratified

[Catchme]

What rights need changing?

Section 1. "Guarantees of rights and Freedoms" applied to various sections of the Charter depending on interpretation of various sections of the charter, is improperly defined and open for abuse and worst of all overrides democratic rights which is given a back seat to charter rights.

What democratic rights does it override?

Section 3. "Democratic Rights" also have NO real definition in Canada relating to Canadians 'forming laws of the land' or being part of the process concerning 'constitutional laws, such as the Charter itself.

Therefore ALL Canadians should be part of the legal process concerning ANY CONSTITIONAL CHANGE as the federal government should have no right to do this unilaterally without the citizens of Canada.

Of course they should, they were democratically elected by a majority government. The Charter of Rights have never been a issue for the majority of Canadians either.

Section 15. "Equality Rights is open to abuse when bounced off of other rights.

How is open to abuse when bounced off of the rights of others?

Section 16. "Official Languages"is subject to abuse and improper interpretation.

How?

But the whole problem with the Charter is "Minority Rights" is integrated with basic Charter rights which it feeds off of it.

IOW the Charter is designed primarily for minorities rather than ALL Canadians which could be seen as a fraudulent document.

Hate to tell you this Canada is made up of minorities so protecting minority rights is protecting ALL Canadians.

This creates a huge democratic deficit as their are numerous other ways to attend to the requirement of minorities with the creation of a very complicated document (without safe guards) to attack existing rights of Canadian citizens.

There is NO democratic deficit created with our Charter. And NO existing Rights of Canadian citizens are being attacked. Just because you say so does not mean it is correct.

[jbg]

I would consider the fact that someone can be fined or go to jail for having a sign, in Quebec, saying "Bob's Radiator", with an apostrophe, is a major attack on freedom rights, no?

[Catchme]

I would consider the fact that someone can be fined or go to jail for having a sign, in Quebec, saying "Bob's Radiator", with an apostrophe, is a major attack on freedom rights, no?

why would anything you say be pertinent to anything, remember you are an American from New York.

Our Charter is really none of your business.

I am sure if we all of sudden started telling the USA, or indeed Israel, that they had to change their Human Rights charter you would dismiss it PDQ.

[guyser]

why would anything you say be pertinent to anything, remember you are an American from New York.

Our Charter is really none of your business.

I am sure if we all of sudden started telling the USA, or indeed Israel, that they had to change their Human Rights charter you would dismiss it PDQ.

You have got to be kidding ?....right?

"I am sure if we all of sudden started telling the USA.." Like that has NEVER happened before on MLW.We seem to never shut up telling the US what to do.

[Catchme]

discussing American foreign policies and trade is much different than telling them they should change their Declaration of Independance and all amendments to it.

[Leafless]

What rights need changing?

Section 1. "Guarantees of rights and Freedoms" applied to various sections of the Charter depending on interpretation of various sections of the charter, is improperly defined and open for abuse and worst of all overrides democratic rights which is given a back seat to charter rights.

What democratic rights does it override?

All Canadians INITIALLY are granted the basically same democratic rights by government, the same as our original "Bill of Rights".

http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-...I//en/?noCookie

All Canadians are equal in that regard and basically that's all that should have been included in the Charter.

The federal government abuses democratic rights of Canadians by including separate categories of extra privileges pertaining to minorities.

By minorities we are primarily talking Quebec and Aboriginal minorities that are specifically detailed in the Charter, under "Official Languages" Section 16-22, Minority Language Educational Rights, Section 35, Rights of Aboriginal Peoples.

These sections have the capability of enforcing and implementing further rights for Quebec and Aboriginals, depending on interpretation of Charter Rights, Section 23, Enforcement, Section 24-31, Section 32-34, Application of Charter, Section 36-Equalization and Regional disparities.

[Leafless]

Therefore ALL Canadians should be part of the legal process concerning ANY CONSTITIONAL CHANGE as the federal government should have no right to do this unilaterally without the citizens of Canada.

Of course they should, they were democratically elected by a majority government. The Charter of Rights have never been a issue for the majority of Canadians either.

What majority are you talking about?

A majority government does NOT MEAN 50 + 1.

Beside the federal government is responsible for running the business of the country and should not include altering or amending our constitution without Canadians who make up the country of Canada.

Most Canadians are asses when it comes to our constitution and proves the politicians of this country are not enlightening Canadians to what the 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' really means in the way of a major democratic deficit concerning the majority of Canadians and also a huge financial deficit.

So, the bottom line is a certain federal party has spearheaded a campaign to defraud citizens of Canada.

[Catchme]

If you fail to see why there were 2 inclusions regarding PQ and First Nations, then no one can help you.

To suggest democratic deficit on these 2 items is at best short sighted, at worst xenophobic.

[Leafless]

If you fail to see why there were 2 inclusions regarding PQ and First Nations, then no one can help you.

To suggest democratic deficit on these 2 items is at best short sighted, at worst xenophobic.

The PQ and First Nations ALL ALONG had the same rights as any other Canadian, WITHOUT being included AGAIN in the 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms'.

If you fail to see the connection for an undemocratic minority 'power grab' played out by a co-operating federal government, then I to feel you are well suited to be included in the ranks of 'DUMB ASS CANADIANS' who would never be able to distinguish the difference between a 'cup and a coup'.

[Catchme]

Oh so it is xenophobia that is at play then?

There are differences amongst both of the other founding groups of Canada, that are addressed in the Charter, it does not make them more equal, or indeed afford an opportunity for them to have a "coup" of Canada. In fact, both groups could say portions of the Charter favour white anglo saxon protestants. Its a 3 way split amongst the founder cultrues of Canada, and that is how it should be.

Just because you wild imaginings take you down this fear driven path does not make it so.

Funny, eh, how the bully never wants others to over come man made deficiencies that make them vulnerable to bullies of the dominant privileged class.

[Posit]

Same sex marriage and the issue of security certificates have been dealt with by the government. In the case of SSM, the government asked the SCC if SSM would violate the Charter. They ruled it wouldn't, so the argument that freedom of religion guarantees would conflict with SSM became a non-issue. The government approved SSM on that basis. It remains a constitutional right by our agreement as a society as a whole.

As far as security certificate, the Charter protects us not only from the infringement of our rights by other people, by by the stat, its justice system and the government. No government can be above the Charter, unless it is a dictatorship, in which case there would be no need for a Charter of Rights. IN ANY democracy we must always be alerted to the potential of government without controls to remove our rights and freedoms based on political will - which is exactly what the Conservatives want to do. There is no support in the general public for the kind of fascist rule you would propose.

[Posit]

Actually the articles contained in the Charter concerning First Nations and Quebec are there to protect them from the tyranny of the mainly Anglo-European majority. The protection of these freedoms is necessary because in the past there has always been a propensity by AE Christian White Males to take advantage over minorities, including women to advance their own personal interests. Without special provisions in the Charter it wouldn't take any time at all before the English Canadians disadvantaged all others.

[Leafless]

Oh so it is xenophobia that is at play then?

There are differences amongst both of the other founding groups of Canada, that are addressed in the Charter, it does not make them more equal, or indeed afford an opportunity for them to have a "coup" of Canada. In fact, both groups could say portions of the Charter favour white anglo saxon protestants. Its a 3 way split amongst the founder cultrues of Canada, and that is how it should be.

Just because you wild imaginings take you down this fear driven path does not make it so.

Funny, eh, how the bully never wants others to over come man made deficiencies that make them vulnerable to bullies of the dominant privileged class.

What legitimate document exist outside of course the Charter, states that the founding nations have legitimate claim to Canada?

Founding nations of course, is a political invention and was NEVER ratified by CANADIANS.

But the sad reality of life is that 'life is NOT fair' and never has been.

[Alexandra]

why would anything you say be pertinent to anything, remember you are an American from New York.

Our Charter is really none of your business.

I am sure if we all of sudden started telling the USA, or indeed Israel, that they had to change their Human Rights charter you would dismiss it PDQ.

Well then, I trust that from now on you will most certainly mind your own business when it comes to American government policies on Human Rights and, any and ALL American government policies ad infinitum.

To paraphrase: Why would anything you say be pertinent to anything .... 'Remember you are a Canadian from the City of Podunk' or, wherever!

Since when btw were you appointed a moderator of this board.

`

[Catchme]

Oh so it is xenophobia that is at play then?

There are differences amongst both of the other founding groups of Canada, that are addressed in the Charter, it does not make them more equal, or indeed afford an opportunity for them to have a "coup" of Canada. In fact, both groups could say portions of the Charter favour white anglo saxon protestants. Its a 3 way split amongst the founder cultrues of Canada, and that is how it should be.

Just because you wild imaginings take you down this fear driven path does not make it so.

Funny, eh, how the bully never wants others to over come man made deficiencies that make them vulnerable to bullies of the dominant privileged class.

What legitimate document exist outside of course the Charter, states that the founding nations have legitimate claim to Canada?

Founding nations of course, is a political invention and was NEVER ratified by CANADIANS.

But the sad reality of life is that 'life is NOT fair' and never has been.

It is usually those with white privilege that say life is not fair to bad, too. And it seems they want to keep it that way even though they have no right to.

It seems you are forgetting Treaties signed that have never been adhered to, agreements made for compensation that have never been adhered to, and indeed there was agreements with Quebecers to keep their language and religion long ago. And they were ratified by founding Canadians leafless.

Study Canadian history a bit, it may help you a bit to realize who actually helped create this country, and probably more so than your ancestors ever did.

How many generation Canadian are you leafless?

[Leafless]

Study Canadian history a bit, it may help you a bit to realize who actually helped create this country, and probably more so than your ancestors ever did.

How many generation Canadian are you leafless?

So what are you saying some Canadians are more Canadian than others?

My grandmother immigrated from Germany into Canada in 1876.

The rest is history.

[Catchme]

Study Canadian history a bit, it may help you a bit to realize who actually helped create this country, and probably more so than your ancestors ever did.

How many generation Canadian are you leafless?

So what are you saying some Canadians are more Canadian than others?

My grandmother immigrated from Germany into Canada in 1876.

The rest is history.

My ancestors, both sides, predate your grandmothers by a couple of hundred years +.

Having said that, those immigrants who entered into Canada, after the Treaties were ratified and recompense contracts were entered into with FN's and Quebecers were given the right to retain language and religion, have NO say in this day and age. Which was the point I was making.

Moreover, those that came to Canada to live in enclaves and have kept themselves apart have now no say either IMV.

[Leafless]

Having said that, those immigrants who entered into Canada, after the Treaties were ratified and recompense contracts were entered into with FN's and Quebecers were given the right to retain language and religion, have NO say in this day and age. Which was the point I was making.

Moreover, those that came to Canada to live in enclaves and have kept themselves apart have now no say either IMV.

History is history and France and Canada's natives were a conquered people.

There are treaties such as Treaty 7, and France relinquished all rights to Canada.

Quebec was left with rights dictated by confederation language, religion and civil law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_7

Quebec has more powers than any province in Canada and for you to say "Quebec has no say" is utter nonsense.

If Quebec did so much for Canada why is it they are incapable of providing employment for their own culture and have to depend on equalization payments for its survival?

Would it not be better to assimilate to encourage prosperity in their own province?

[jbg]

why would anything you say be pertinent to anything, remember you are an American from New York.

Our Charter is really none of your business.

I am sure if we all of sudden started telling the USA, or indeed Israel, that they had to change their Human Rights charter you would dismiss it PDQ.

Well then, I trust that from now on you will most certainly mind your own business when it comes to American government policies on Human Rights and, any and ALL American government policies ad infinitum.

To paraphrase: Why would anything you say be pertinent to anything .... 'Remember you are a Canadian from the City of Podunk' or, wherever!

Since when btw were you appointed a moderator of this board.

I'm sure Catchme has never criticized Bush.

After all, I'm sure Catchme knows more about the inner workings of American politics than I do about Canadian politics. Heck, I can barely find Canada on a map, except for its beautiful Saskatchewan seacoast.

[Catchme]

Having said that, those immigrants who entered into Canada, after the Treaties were ratified and recompense contracts were entered into with FN's and Quebecers were given the right to retain language and religion, have NO say in this day and age. Which was the point I was making.

Moreover, those that came to Canada to live in enclaves and have kept themselves apart have now no say either IMV.

History is history and France and Canada's natives were a conquered people.

There are treaties such as Treaty 7, and France relinquished all rights to Canada.

Quebec was left with rights dictated by confederation language, religion and civil law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_7

Quebec has more powers than any province in Canada and for you to say "Quebec has no say" is utter nonsense.

If Quebec did so much for Canada why is it they are incapable of providing employment for their own culture and have to depend on equalization payments for its survival?

Would it not be better to assimilate to encourage prosperity in their own province?

FN's were NOT conquered peoples there were NO Indian Wars in Canada.

There are more treaties than the # 7

Assimulate we are NOT the USA we are pluralistic and multi-cultural.

And how I about I say then it is time for all the mormons, mennonites, hutterites, and other white religious people assimulate to the cultural norm? Would you be in accordance with that?

When the French were defeated, it was agreed they would keep their religion and language.

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A jbg your words are empty, you, as an American, have no right to have any say in the Canadian constitution, nor more than I have any say in the USA constitution. And no, I have never ever said the USA should change its constitution or implied it. Who knows what about what country has no bearing on it.

Trade, International Human Rights infringements, and foreign policy is up for grabs though, just as it is for you to have a say about that in regards to Canada.

[Leafless]

Assimulate we are NOT the USA we are pluralistic and multi-cultural.

And how I about I say then it is time for all the mormons, mennonites, hutterites, and other white religious people assimulate to the cultural norm? Would you be in accordance with that?

When the French were defeated, it was agreed they would keep their religion and language.

Quebec was allowed to keep their language and religion pertaining to and within their OWN PROVINCE but even at that, originally not on an 'official basis' pertaining to language.

But that has since changed as Quebec declared itself 'officially unilingual French' with it's own 'Charter of the French Language' better known as Bill-101.

You know as well as I do there is no law in Canada restricting the use of languages spoken for private use and of course none governing freedom of religion.

But relating to a provinces 'unilingual official French language' like Quebec, it should be there sole responsibility to provide for all aspects of that language within their province. But most Canadians know Quebec cannot do this without the help of Canadian taxpayers.

This brings us back to why the charter should be re-ratified or scrapped as federal parties desperate for votes could capitalize on fulfilling Quebec's financial deficit for more funds by the expansion of Quebec rights to direct more funding or jobs to support their culture. This has been done in the federal public service (under exaggerated requirements for bilingualism) where as francophone's are grossly over represented in the federal public service such as in the Ottawa area where Quebec francophone's flood over to Ottawa every day and go home at night to support the Quebec economy. Quebec also controls federal government pensions and staffing in Quebec.

BTW- Any member has the right to comment in any area in Canadian politics if he or she chooses to do so.

If you know of any legitimate restrictions set out by this site administration to Americans participating on this site , please inform us.

[geoffrey]

And how I about I say then it is time for all the mormons, mennonites, hutterites, and other white religious people assimulate to the cultural norm? Would you be in accordance with that?

A mennonite hanging out on their farm really doesn't cost me anything, the French language in Canada does.

If a culture can't survive without being on government life support, we have to question the value of keeping it alive through special laws and funding.

Being said, I don't think French is as dead as Leafless makes it out to be.

I think my Canadian hertiage (at least on my father's side) one ups Catchme's resume... we were amongst the first French settlers to Canada... we are talking early 1600's. There is even a provincial riding in Quebec that matches my last name in honour of a relative of mine, a Conservative cabinet minister under John A. MacDonald. The first canadien-francais millionaire is relatively closely related to me as well... somehow my more direct relatives unfortunately fell off that wagon somewhere. My mother's side is relatively recent Irish and French though.

So that means I'm right .

So really, I should be advocating the French culture, but really, I'm just confident it can stand on it's own two feet.

[Catchme]

Oh most certainly anyone can make comments if they want, just as anyone can say; as an American you have no right to make comments on Canada's constitution. And that is a fact, I do not have to accept an American trashing the canadian constitution.

In fact why would an American want to make comments on Canada's constitution? Or why would some Canadians find this acceptable, and scream bloody murder if someone questions Bush et al's actions?

geoffery the the discussion was surrounding assimilation, and some insisting that it should coccur, I ask why some and not others?

and I disagree with you regarding some mennonite hanging out on the farm does not cost us anything.

I have real issues with mennonites advocating war or participation in war by canada.

[Argus]

Actually the articles contained in the Charter concerning First Nations and Quebec are there to protect them from the tyranny of the mainly Anglo-European majority.

If the "anglo-European majority" was much given to tyranny we'd have wiped out the indians long ago instead of putting them on quaint reserves and giving them welfare for so many generations.

[Argus]

Study Canadian history a bit, it may help you a bit to realize who actually helped create this country, and probably more so than your ancestors ever did.

How many generation Canadian are you leafless?

So what are you saying some Canadians are more Canadian than others?

My grandmother immigrated from Germany into Canada in 1876.

The rest is history.

My ancestors, both sides, predate your grandmothers by a couple of hundred years +.

Ah, I think I'm getting a better clue on which of our previously expelled loudmouthed members Catchme is. I knew I recognized the tone, but there have been so many shrill, left wingers bounced from this web site I wasn't sure which of them it was. Now I think I know.