Building our own little empire

[margrace]

Too often this is what politicians and others employed in government areas do. Yesterday we heard Mr. Clement tell us that he will implement training and accreditation tools for our Palliative care organizations. You see all this was a grass roots organization the is working very well. Of course he needs to be able to say it was his idea.

We already have from the federal and Ontario provincial orgaizations well set up training programs and accredition programs. He also said he will investigate programs that give nurses Palliative Care training in their Schools. UBC has already installed a teacher whose main interest in Palliative Care.

In talking about our health care there was, of course, no mention of Tommy Douglas, couldn't have that could we? No he will spend, as politicians allways do much of our tax dollars reinventing the wheel to promote Tony Clement.

[geoffrey]

In talking about our health care there was, of course, no mention of Tommy Douglas, couldn't have that could we? No he will spend, as politicians allways do much of our tax dollars reinventing the wheel to promote Tony Clement.

Tommy Douglas is a lost concept, it can't work, it encourages all the wrong behavoirs. We need to abandon that idea and move to a more modern European approach like that in Sweden or France if we ever want success with universal health care. Choice in providers is absolutely key in maintaining a state of the art and low waiting list system.

Currently, people suffer way too much waiting for care, it's unacceptable, and the Supreme Court agrees with me. There should be no preventing someone from spending money to stop their pain.

[Saturn]

Currently, people suffer way too much waiting for care, it's unacceptable, and the Supreme Court agrees with me. There should be no preventing someone from spending money to stop their pain.

That makes a lot of sense. If we have two parallel systems, the same number of doctors and nurses will be able to provide twice as much care. Of course Sweden and France have 50+% more doctors and nurses but that doesn't make a difference at all. It's privately paying for service that makes the difference.

[Riverwind]

Of course Sweden and France have 50+% more doctors and nurses but that doesn't make a difference at all. It's privately paying for service that makes the difference.

You are mixing up cause an effect. The system we have in Canada rations care which means it limits the number of doctors and nurses than it will pay for. In a mixed model system there is more demand for these professionals which means more people enter the field.

[Saturn]

Of course Sweden and France have 50+% more doctors and nurses but that doesn't make a difference at all. It's privately paying for service that makes the difference.

You are mixing up cause an effect. The system we have in Canada rations care which means it limits the number of doctors and nurses than it will pay for. In a mixed model system there is more demand for these professionals which means more people enter the field.

Aha, that's why French physicians make $60K/yr and Canadian physicians make three times as much. It's because there is too little money in our system, not because there are too few physicians.

[Riverwind]

Aha, that's why French physicians make $60K/yr and Canadian physicians make three times as much. It's because there is too little money in our system, not because there are too few physicians.

I suspect your figure has left some rather important details out. However, even if I accept it at face value you must remember that the French don't have to compete with the US market. That will never change no matter what we do with our system so we have no choice but to pay doctors enough to keep them in Canada. The same is true of nurses. Allowing a private system in Canada would probably enourage doctors to stay in Canada that would have otherwised moved to the US.

[Saturn]

I suspect your figure has left some rather important details out. However, even if I accept it at face value you must remember that the French don't have to compete with the US market.

BS. Everyone competes with everyone. Why wouldn't French doctors go to the US and Canadian doctors would? That there is no way to increase the supply of doctors in Canada is the biggest pile of bullshit I've heard from the private health-care investors and their brainwashed.

[geoffrey]

Why wouldn't French doctors go to the US and Canadian doctors would?

Because Canadians are familiar with the US and the French are not. Most people are hesitant to move somewhere they don't know of (you can't even get Canadians to move from labour excess to labour shortage in their own country).

Many Canadians can move to the US and still drive home to visit family. Not the same with Europeans.

[Catchme]

Currently, people suffer way too much waiting for care, it's unacceptable, and the Supreme Court agrees with me. There should be no preventing someone from spending money to stop their pain.

That makes a lot of sense. If we have two parallel systems, the same number of doctors and nurses will be able to provide twice as much care. Of course Sweden and France have 50+% more doctors and nurses but that doesn't make a difference at all. It's privately paying for service that makes the difference.

You are quite correct, it is privately paying for it makes the difference, it seems they still want the funded system, they just want to jump to the head of the line because they can afford to.

No one is preventing them from spending money to stop the pain, if they want to spend their private money on health care then go to the states.

I would like geoffery to prove that the Supreme Court agrees with him regarding private health care in Canada and queue jumping because you have money.

[Keepitsimple]

Too often this is what politicians and others employed in government areas do. Yesterday we heard Mr. Clement tell us that he will implement training and accreditation tools for our Palliative care organizations. You see all this was a grass roots organization the is working very well. Of course he needs to be able to say it was his idea.

We already have from the federal and Ontario provincial orgaizations well set up training programs and accredition programs. He also said he will investigate programs that give nurses Palliative Care training in their Schools. UBC has already installed a teacher whose main interest in Palliative Care.

In talking about our health care there was, of course, no mention of Tommy Douglas, couldn't have that could we? No he will spend, as politicians allways do much of our tax dollars reinventing the wheel to promote Tony Clement.

Sounds to me like Tony Clement is just doing his job. The Provincial Governments are responsible for delivering Health Care services. One of the ways the Federal Government can help is to keep abreast of what certain provinces are doing well - and then to help coordinate a "best practises" model that can be adapted for use in other provinces....Training and Accreditation can also be part of the Federal "help" package - without intruding in the Provinces' domain of actual service delivery. The fact that it is working well in Ontario is great but other provinces might want to catch up. Palliative care is a vocation that is taken up by people with great empathy....but nonetheless, we have to ensure that there is a consistent level of standard care and competence across the country. Will Tony Clement "claim" credit? I think you'll find Tony to be a reasonably humble person who is more interested in making progress - I'm sure you'll see his announcements qualified in some manner as "building on the successes of Ontario......etc."

[Wilber]

In talking about our health care there was, of course, no mention of Tommy Douglas, couldn't have that could we? No he will spend, as politicians allways do much of our tax dollars reinventing the wheel to promote Tony Clement.

Tommy Douglas deserves great credit for Canada's adoption of universal medical care over 40 years ago but he has been dead for 20 years. We don't bow down to the name of Lester Pearson every time Canadians are sent out on a peace keeping mission but we recognise that he was the one most responsible for the concept. The same goes for Douglas. Douglas didn't invent socialized medicine but he was responsible for the first such system in North America.

The OECD ties us with Iceland for 1st place in percentage of GDP spent on health care. We are 19th in doctors per capita, 18th in access to MRI's, 17th in access to CT scans and 26th in hospital beds per capita. I hate to break it to you but while our wheel served us very well for years it is in dire need of reinventing.

[geoffrey]

I would like geoffery to prove that the Supreme Court agrees with him regarding private health care in Canada and queue jumping because you have money.

Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General), 2005 SCC 35, 9 June 2005.