Palestinians Attack Canadian Tourists

[jbg]

You forgot to mention that the protest was sparkled by Israel's work around the holy site which apparently weren't cooridinated with the religious authorities of the mosque. The operators of the tour should have known better than to take tourists to the site which in the midst of a trouble.

It's an unfortunate incident but I doubt it gives you grounds to blame all palestinians indiscriminately.

There's something seriously wrong, not matter what "work around the holy site " Israel was conducting, in attacking any civilians, much less Canadians. This is a death cult, pure and simple, you have on your hands.

[Figleaf]

Let them starve if need be, they have to learn somehow.

Yeah! And how about we send in some contaminated blankets too. And castrate their male children. They have to learn somehow.

[Figleaf]

"And you may want to check if you didn't already happen to know that East Jerusalem is an occupied territory."

East Jerusalem is not an occupied territory. ....

Really? What state exercises military and administrative control over it and under what authority?

The British breached their promise to the Leage of Nations to create a Jewish homeland...

Can you fill me in more on this promise? I'll look into it myself if you could cite the relevant document or documents for me...

East Jerusalem was taken by the Israelis after the 1967 war in an act of self-defence only after Jordan massed troops on its borders with Iraq and Syria preparing to invade Israel.

Self-defence, eh? Come off it. Everyone knows Israel attacked first in 1967.

The PLO and Hamas have full control over the West Bank and Gaza.

Bullshit. Gaza is still subject to regular incursion of Israeli forces, and Israeli forces still occupy and maintain checkpoints in the West Bank. Israel also controls the ports, borders and airspace of both territories. The Occupation continues.

It was the Muslims who chose to destroy the Jewish Temple and build on top of it.

As the Temple was destroyed c.70AD, and Mohammed wasn't born until something in the 600s, was it time-travelling Muslims who did it?

[Rue]

Can you give a little clarification on one point, Rue? Wasn't the Second Temple destroyed by the Romans, and as you already pointed out, hundreds of years before there was any such thing as a Muslim?

Also, they didn't just randomly decide to build the Al-Aqsa Mosque there. Isn't it supposed to be located on the site where Mohammed supposedely ascended to Heaven?

Sorry for the late reply. Right on both!

[Rue]

Hi Rue,

your posts tend to be too long and throw in too much unnessessary data (not information!) for a reasonable discussion. Do you mean to say that the works near the mosque did not happen? I haven't done PhD research on this, but I heard on CBC news Israeli general advising against it. Against something that never happened that is? They also brought a cleric from the mosque live and he stated that there was no consultation. And so on.

Now, have it ever dawned on you to question how and on what authority British could "promise to the league of nations to create a Jewish homeland" on other peoples lands, even if it were true?

I guess your idea of a reasonable discussion is to misrepresent and not want to deal with facts. Also what are you babbling about. Teh British never promised the lage of nations ot create a Jewish homeland. They promised to administer the Palestinian zone ON BEHALF of the League of Nations and assist the League of Nations set up the homeland for Israel.

why don't you read what actually happened. The fact that you want to ignore history doesn't make it untrue.

[Figleaf]

???

...The British breached their promise to the Leage of Nations to create a Jewish homeland ...

... Teh British never promised the lage of nations ot create a Jewish homeland.

Which is it, Rue? Which statement is the lie?

[Rue]

???

...The British breached their promise to the Leage of Nations to create a Jewish homeland ...

... Teh British never promised the lage of nations ot create a Jewish homeland.

Which is it, Rue? Which statement is the lie?

I must confess when I respomnd toyou I write quickly because I consider you a petty annoyance. Let me spell it out. The League of Nations as I stated many times had a mandate to create a state for Jews in Palestine. The British lied to the League. They said if the League allowed them to administer the Palestinian area they would see to it the Jews would get their own country. This pledge was to the League of Nations to get the right to administer Palestine.

while the British represented to the League they would help set up the Jewish state, they went to the arab world and told them they had no intention of ever doing such a thing. They lied and played the League of Nations and world Jewery like fools. They then seized 80% of Palestine and created Jordan illegally.

So what part of what I stated above is a li Figleaf. I confess I wrote too fast. What I meant to say is the British never promsied anything on their own to anyone-they promised it to the League of Nations.

See your problem Figleaf is to date you have deliberately chosen to ignore history because in your simplistic anti-Jewish world where jews have no rights to universal sufferage you refuse to look at the history behind how the British and French and their artificial seizure and creation of colonies caused this mess.

I am of course through wasting my energy with you. You have made it clear to anyone who reads your posts you are not interested in anything but your stale, unoriginal, Israel bad, Jews have no rights, position. You bore me.

[Rue]

Hi Rue,

your posts tend to be too long and throw in too much unnessessary data (not information!) for a reasonable discussion. Do you mean to say that the works near the mosque did not happen? I haven't done PhD research on this, but I heard on CBC news Israeli general advising against it. Against something that never happened that is? They also brought a cleric from the mosque live and he stated that there was no consultation. And so on.

Now, have it ever dawned on you to question how and on what authority British could "promise to the league of nations to create a Jewish homeland" on other peoples lands, even if it were true?

I guess your idea of a reasonable discussion is to misrepresent and not want to deal with facts. Also what are you babbling about. Teh British never promised the lage of nations ot create a Jewish homeland. They promised to administer the Palestinian zone ON BEHALF of the League of Nations and assist the League of Nations set up the homeland for Israel.

why don't you read what actually happened. The fact that you want to ignore history doesn't make it untrue.

I better clarify the above. The British nevcer promised the Leage of Nations it would break its promise to get the Jews their homeland. It was a typing error.

as for the idiot question about whether the ritish promised this to the League it is historical fact proven by british speeches and documens given to the League of Nations and whicha re now artifacts. Fro Myata to pretend this is not the case is hialrious.

also Myata's reference to a clerk is absolute b.s. The Muslims whos it on the inter-faith council with Jewish Rabbiahs and Christian clergy were well aware of what was going on and did not object. The alleged cleric is not on the council and is a Hamas member who later admitted what he said was not absed on what the Muslim clerics on the inter-faith council said.

I suppose Myata if you want to keep passing off these lies as truths that is your prerogative. You seem so caught up in your Figleaf world of bad and good and Israel as an evil demon does it make a difference to you what really happened?

as for the Israeli General you misquoted why don't your read back what he really said in full before you misrepresent what he said. I am tired of this b.s.

[Figleaf]

???

...The British breached their promise to the Leage of Nations to create a Jewish homeland ...

... Teh British never promised the lage of nations ot create a Jewish homeland.

Which is it, Rue? Which statement is the lie?

I must confess when I respomnd toyou I write quickly because I consider you a petty annoyance.

Your credibility is shot. Neither of the two comments was originally directed to me.

Let me spell it out.

It's really very simple. Just answer -- which of your contradictory comments was the lie?

The League of Nations as I stated many times had a mandate to create a state for Jews in Palestine. The British lied to the League. They said if the League allowed them to administer the Palestinian area they would see to it the Jews would get their own country. This pledge was to the League of Nations to get the right to administer Palestine.

So you are saying your second comment was the lie. Okay fine. Now that's established, can you please cite a documentary source for this promise you say the British made? I'd like to read about it further.

I confess I wrote too fast. What I meant to say is the British never promsied anything on their own to anyone-they promised it to the League of Nations.

You make less sense by the minute. How can they have promised nothing if in fact they promised something?

See your problem Figleaf...

Your problem is you can't seem to write a straight word.

... in your simplistic anti-Jewish world ....

And now we have one of your old tired lies, rather than the fresher variety.

I have never written a word against Jewish people and I defy you to prove me wrong or eat your false malicious words, you dirty (proven) liar.

[jbg]

I have never written a word against Jewish people and I defy you to prove me wrong or eat your false malicious words, you dirty (proven) liar.

I'm not going to parse all of your posts. Suffice to say that both Rue and I consider you to be anti-Jewish.

[Figleaf]

I have never written a word against Jewish people and I defy you to prove me wrong or eat your false malicious words, you dirty (proven) liar.

I'm not going to parse all of your posts. Suffice to say that both Rue and I consider you to be anti-Jewish.

Well I'm not.

I tell you again, you won't find a hint of anti-Jewishness in my posts. How can I be sure? Because I don't hold any anti-Jewishness.

It's troubling and disappointing that you can't hear honest criticism of Israel without groundlessly imputing anti-semitism.

[PolyNewbie]

Those Palistinians should just learn to bow down to authority and let Israel take whatever it wants ...right ?

They must be crazy for being angry and wanting to do whatever they can about it. Suicide bombing isn't a sign of desperation and hopelessness in an unjust world - its much easier on the conscience to assume they are crazy.

It's troubling and disappointing that you can't hear honest criticism of Israel without groundlessly imputing anti-semitism.

Thats just the mentality of a lot of people, logic doesn't work in their favour so they turn to insults and innuendos.

If they actually knew anything they would know that many Israelis are against the occupation as well. They just get shot at with real bullets when protesting.

[Rue]

???

...The British breached their promise to the Leage of Nations to create a Jewish homeland ...

... Teh British never promised the lage of nations ot create a Jewish homeland.

Which is it, Rue? Which statement is the lie?

I must confess when I respomnd toyou I write quickly because I consider you a petty annoyance.

Your credibility is shot. Neither of the two comments was originally directed to me.

Let me spell it out.

It's really very simple. Just answer -- which of your contradictory comments was the lie?

The League of Nations as I stated many times had a mandate to create a state for Jews in Palestine. The British lied to the League. They said if the League allowed them to administer the Palestinian area they would see to it the Jews would get their own country. This pledge was to the League of Nations to get the right to administer Palestine.

So you are saying your second comment was the lie. Okay fine. Now that's established, can you please cite a documentary source for this promise you say the British made? I'd like to read about it further.

I confess I wrote too fast. What I meant to say is the British never promsied anything on their own to anyone-they promised it to the League of Nations.

You make less sense by the minute. How can they have promised nothing if in fact they promised something?

See your problem Figleaf...

Your problem is you can't seem to write a straight word.

... in your simplistic anti-Jewish world ....

And now we have one of your old tired lies, rather than the fresher variety.

I have never written a word against Jewish people and I defy you to prove me wrong or eat your false malicious words, you dirty (proven) liar.

I said the statement you are calling a lie is a typing error Mr. Conspiracy and coming from you any accusation about lacking in credibility is a joke considering you have yet to contribute anything on these posts other then personal subjective opinions.

As for you calling me dirty I wash every day and if you want to smell my arm-pits I can make arrangements.

[Rue]

Those Palistinians should just learn to bow down to authority and let Israel take whatever it wants ...right ?

They must be crazy for being angry and wanting to do whatever they can about it. Suicide bombing isn't a sign of desperation and hopelessness in an unjust world - its much easier on the conscience to assume they are crazy.

It's troubling and disappointing that you can't hear honest criticism of Israel without groundlessly imputing anti-semitism.

Thats just the mentality of a lot of people, logic doesn't work in their favour so they turn to insults and innuendos.

If they actually knew anything they would know that many Israelis are against the occupation as well. They just get shot at with real bullets when protesting.

When people criticize Israel and use arguements that make negative generalizations about all Jews or use the holocaust to suggest their is a double standard and "Israelis" or "Jews" should act in a different way then the rest of the world-then yes I call that anti-semitism.

If you want to criticize Israel without engaging in your Lyndon Larouche clap trap about world conspiracies and the Jews controlling congress and the banks, then go for it. Make negative generalized statements about Jews when criticizing Israel and I will be the first to call you an anti-semite.

Its funny the only people on these posts whining about anti-semitic accusations can't seem to discuss Israel without making simplistic negative generalizations about all Jews.

Please don't let me keep you from one of your meetings to discuss the world.

[Figleaf]

I said the statement you are calling a lie is a typing error

Oh, now it's a typing error? What exactly is this typing error? Is the word 'not' missing at the end?

Mr. Conspiracy and coming from you any accusation about lacking in credibility is a joke considering you have yet to contribute anything on these posts other then personal subjective opinions.

It IS an opinion forum, y'know.

As for you calling me dirty I wash every day and if you want to smell my arm-pits I can make arrangements.

It's your rhetorical methods that are dirty.

[jbg]

They must be crazy for being angry and wanting to do whatever they can about it. Suicide bombing isn't a sign of desperation and hopelessness in an unjust world - its much easier on the conscience to assume they are crazy.

Would the Jews have been crazy for being angry about the Holocaust. Aside from one snake in an Egyptian mailbox what grotesquely violent atrocities have they been involved in?

[WestViking]

Those Palistinians should just learn to bow down to authority and let Israel take whatever it wants ...right ?

They must be crazy for being angry and wanting to do whatever they can about it. Suicide bombing isn't a sign of desperation and hopelessness in an unjust world - its much easier on the conscience to assume they are crazy.

Nonsense. When the UN set up the State of Israel in 1948, it also created a state of Palestine.

The Jews agreed to the UN plan despite many misgivings.

The Arabs rejected the UN plan claiming they were going to get rid of the Jews rather than set up a separate nation.

The Middle East has gone steadily downhill from there. The 'desperations and hopelessness' of Palestinians is self-induced.

[Rue]

I have never written a word against Jewish people and I defy you to prove me wrong or eat your false malicious words, you dirty (proven) liar.

I'm not going to parse all of your posts. Suffice to say that both Rue and I consider you to be anti-Jewish.

Sorry due you made me laugh unintentionally. Oy what an understatement. Its cool. I will let you carry the rest of this.

[Rue]

Those Palistinians should just learn to bow down to authority and let Israel take whatever it wants ...right ?

They must be crazy for being angry and wanting to do whatever they can about it. Suicide bombing isn't a sign of desperation and hopelessness in an unjust world - its much easier on the conscience to assume they are crazy.

Nonsense. When the UN set up the State of Israel in 1948, it also created a state of Palestine.

The Jews agreed to the UN plan despite many misgivings.

The Arabs rejected the UN plan claiming they were going to get rid of the Jews rather than set up a separate nation.

The Middle East has gone steadily downhill from there. The 'desperations and hopelessness' of Palestinians is self-induced.

Thank you for at least bothering to refer to history. Hey you know what, for me, I personally am of the opinion the real source of Palestinian suffering was the Arab League's decision to delibately use them as pawns and insist on the refugee camps and not allowing Palestinians citizenship in Arab countries.

I also think had the Arab League simply accepted an Israeli state back in 1949, a second Palestinian state could also have been created and could have formed a working association with Israel and Jordan and I still believe that can happen one day if we can find a way to put all this hatred aside.

Its one thing to try find a way to reach out to moderate Muslims and Palestinians and Israelis and Jews, then reach out to neutrals in the Christian community and other faith groups. That is possible and is happening you just don't read about those kind of people trying to find a way to defuse the violence.

I personally believe in the future, people from other conflicts such as aboriginals, or Irish, will help because they will have credibility and will remain neutral but people from both sides will know they know what it is like to fight over land rights or secretarian violence.

The seeds of peace are there. That said, what I worry about are not a few twits in Canada who think they are experts on a history they do not bother to research-what I worry about are young Muslims who are either taught or have come to believe from personal experience Israelis and or Jews are evil. I also worry in reverse the same way when I see young jews and/or Israelis feeling Mulsims or Palestinians or Arabs will never ever stop hating them. Extremism on either side is what worries me.

I don't give a hoot for one second about the Figleafs of the world who simply want to take a side and incite.

I care about young Palestinians and Muslims trapped in a cycle of despair and unemployment and who only see Israelis when they are soldiers. I also worry about Israelis whose experience of Palestinians is limited to terrorist attacks and Hamas.

In spite of it all I believe Palestinians and Israelis will find a way. Can you tell I read and was inspired by the diary of Ann Frank or Eli Wiesel? Of course I am. I also am inspired by a Canadian Political science Professor at Western, Salim Mansur and many other moderate peace loving Muslims not to mention anyone who has genuinely avoided taking sides and not conceived this conflict as bad versus good but two equally tortured people with no rights or wrongs, just mutual fear that generates the hatred.

[Black Dog]

The League of Nations as I stated many times had a mandate to create a state for Jews in Palestine. The British lied to the League. They said if the League allowed them to administer the Palestinian area they would see to it the Jews would get their own country. This pledge was to the League of Nations to get the right to administer Palestine.

November 2, 1917: the Balfour Declaration is issued. The declaration is a formal statement of policy by the British government supporting Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

June 28, 1919: The League of Nations established.

April 19-26, 1920: The Sanremo conference is held in Sanremo, Italy. In it, the post-World War I Allied Supreme Council determined the allocation of Class "A" League of Nations mandates for administration of the former Ottoman-ruled lands of the Middle East by the victorious powers. The decisions of the conference mainly just confirmed (e.g. concerning Palestine) those of the First Conference of London (February 1920). Britain received the mandate for Palestine and Iraq, while France gained control of Syria including present-day Lebanon. The boundaries of all these territories were left unspecified, to "be determined by the Principal Allied Powers" subsequently, and was in fact not completely finalized until four years later. The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Balfour Declaration of 1917, though the Mandate for Palestine, while specifying actions in support of Jewish immigration and political status, stated that in the territory to the east of the Jordan River, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' those articles of the Mandate concerning a Jewish National Home.

September 11, 1922: The League of Nations approves a British memorandum stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement. From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine, and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan. Technically they remained one mandate but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. Transjordan remained under British control until 1946.

Given this information, I'm hoping Rue can clarify for me how the establishment of Trans-Jordsan could bve considered theft and a betrayal of a promise made to the LoN when it was conducted with the knowledge and approval of that body. Indeed, it seems the partitioning of Palestine was designed to facilitate the establishment of a Jewish state.

That said, what I worry about are not a few twits in Canada who think they are experts on a history they do not bother to research-what I worry about are young Muslims who are either taught or have come to believe from personal experience Israelis and or Jews are evil. I also worry in reverse the same way when I see young jews and/or Israelis feeling Mulsims or Palestinians or Arabs will never ever stop hating them. Extremism on either side is what worries me.

Yeah and accussing who quibble with the historical accuracy of your posts "Jew haters" is a great way to facilitate peace and understanding. Groundless and knee-jerk accusations of anti-semitism are not the way to go.

[Figleaf]

I don't give a hoot for one second about the Figleafs of the world who simply want to take a side and incite.

Oh yeah. Well look who's inciting now.

[mcqueen625]

You forgot to mention that the protest was sparkled by Israel's work around the holy site which apparently weren't cooridinated with the religious authorities of the mosque. The operators of the tour should have known better than to take tourists to the site which in the midst of a trouble.

It's an unfortunate incident but I doubt it gives you grounds to blame all Palestinians indiscriminately.

Regardless of any work being done by Israel at that site it is not relevant because these people were obviously tourists not construction workers. Let's not also remember that this site is also one on great importance religiously by Christians and Jews as well as Muslims. The Muslims do not have exclusive rights to claims this as THEIR Holy site.

In all likelihood this attack was perpetrated by members of Hamas, a recognized terrorist organization, and just because they form a shaky coalition with Fatah to form a government we have to remember that these terrorists have not recognized Israel's right to exist, nor have they agreed to abandon their violence as a way to get what they want. Their latest demand for any modicum of peace with Israel is for Israel to give up all lands that were occupied by Israel during the war in 1967, so that Palestine can claim that as their State. What they fail to talk about is that what they also want is for Israel to allow Palestinians to move back within the borders of Israel, and the result of that will be that Israelis will be outnumbered by Palestinians, and consequently have no control over their own country. even Koffi Annan was promoting that scenario and was amazed that Israel did not just jump at the chance. Koffi was too stupid to realize something the Israeli's realized right away, they would effectively have no country to call their own, while Palestine wants, their own country exclusively and proxy control of Israel as well.

Norway and other EU countries are so eager to please militant Middle Eastern countries that they are willing to simply flush Israel so they can continue on with business as usual. Regardless of sanctions, some EU countries as well as others have skirted those sanctions for their own selfish gains.

[myata]

Their latest demand for any modicum of peace with Israel is for Israel to give up all lands that were occupied by Israel during the war in 1967, so that Palestine can claim that as their State. What they fail to talk about is that what they also want is for Israel to allow Palestinians to move back within the borders of Israel, and the result of that will be that Israelis will be outnumbered by Palestinians, and consequently have no control over their own country.

Ah! People seeking the right to return to their own homes from which they were expelled by force in a coup d'etat! Such an outrage, really!

[jbg]

Ah! People seeking the right to return to their own homes from which they were expelled by force in a coup d'etat! Such an outrage, really!

So you're admitting that your position is that a Jewish State of Israel should not exist?

[myata]

What a wonderful leap of logic! Care to share how did you divine that?