Dion Courting Western Canada

[geoffrey]

The High Level area is one of the largest oil fields in Alberta. It is three hundred clicks long and over two hundred wide. With Husky, Exxon, and Apache all running big operations there.

In new well drilling activity, it's a minor player. That's where the jobs are. There is little refinement from my understanding done in High Level and without new wells being drilled, it doesn't require alot of people to drive out and take a peek at a well every once.

My point was very valid and I'm sure you got it. The job boom never really hit High Level like Fort Mac or Calgary (hit these two cities very differently).

The bottom line is there is still thousands of unfilled Alberta jobs, whether or not High Level is a major producer.

[geoffrey]

What nonsense. People flee the jobless economies of other provinces, after money stolen from Alberta through the extrotion system pays to train them. If it weren't for Alberta the eastern part of the country would be a third world back water.

Very important point I meant to bring up with Saturn. Who exactly pays for this supposedly educated population in Eastern Canada?

I'm prepared to discuss the Federal Student Loans program in terms of, yet again, another provincial transfer.

[B. Max]

The High Level area is one of the largest oil fields in Alberta. It is three hundred clicks long and over two hundred wide. With Husky, Exxon, and Apache all running big operations there.

In new well drilling activity, it's a minor player. That's where the jobs are. There is little refinement from my understanding done in High Level and without new wells being drilled, it doesn't require alot of people to drive out and take a peek at a well every once.

My point was very valid and I'm sure you got it. The job boom never really hit High Level like Fort Mac or Calgary (hit these two cities very differently).

The bottom line is there is still thousands of unfilled Alberta jobs, whether or not High Level is a major producer.

The plants are not in High Level. They are in Zama, Rain Bow Lake and spread out in the middle of no where but it is considered the High Level area. The reason there is very little drilling is because the oil companies are cutting back, and it's not just High Level. Nor is it just Alberta. It is the number one subject in the oil patch these days.

[blueblood]

Why would we as a net exporter of oil import oil? I don't believe that at all and would like some proof.

It's the result of the FTA and the backlash to the NEP of the 80s. Oil is sold to the Market, where Canada has been the #1 Supplier to the USA. We then have to import oil at market prices.

From the Canadian Association of Petroleum Products.

Exports: Crude Oil: 1.58 million barrels per day

Imports: Crude Oil: 927,000 barrels per

I don't know why you wouldn't believe it. Probably because it doesn't make any sense in a Nationalistic Sense.

But I am certain Geoffery can provide the economic details. He's proven to me he is pretty solid in this regards.

Why not buy our own oil at market price and boost our economy? Importing while we're a net exporter don't look that good. Wouldn't we save money on transport costs?

[blueblood]

That makes as much sense as a fat girl who has a career in nutrition. Why would we as a net exporter of oil import oil? We export Canola oil to Europe for biodiesel now for goodness sakes. I don't believe that at all and would like some proof.

Oh, you clueless but are as opinionated as a fat girl when it comes to ice cream anyway. You want proof - go find it yourself.

1) Importing when we are a net exporter doesn't make sense, it's a waste of our dollars going to another country when it could be spend here.

2) A fat girl wouldn't have an opinion on ice cream as it's all good.

3) Not backing up your claims without proof is no good, I'd like to thank Madmax for putting up some numbers

[geoffrey]

Why not buy our own oil at market price and boost our economy? Importing while we're a net exporter don't look that good. Wouldn't we save money on transport costs?

Actually, free trade to some degree has allowed a much more efficient solution to develop.

Oil costs money to transport, actually in pipelines it costs alot of money to transport. To send our oil to hubs in the Midwest is costly, but people in the Midwest are pretty much in a geographical situation where it must be piped to them. So we do.

Now looking at Eastern Canada or Toronto, it's much cheaper to transport oil in tankers... however suprising that may sound, people don't account for the massive costs of pipelines building, maintenance and land issues. So you get your oil from the Gulf Coast US, Venezuela or North Sea/Norway (possibly some Middle East oil in there too). Proximity to the St. Lawerence Seaway gives you cheaper oil, adding the additional transportation costs through pipeline would add perhaps 2% to the cost of your oil... that's a big deal in the big picture.

It's a rather good (with some exceptions) market solution that gives Alberta more money in profits, Ontario cheaper oil and the US a secure supply.

[jdobbin]

Whatever Dion does, it's highly unlikely Albertans would elect Liberal MP's next election. What are they going to do to make our lives better than the CPC does? Nothing. So who cares what he says?

Telling us his impact on our industry will be less than we think isn't going to win seats. Telling us his environmental policy will not in any way affect our standard of living would do the trick.

I really fear this environmental plan will be another equalisation program as it creates a market for credits. We've got too much equalisation already, any more money leaving Alberta that doesn't come back is bottom line absolutely unacceptable.

Dion might not make inroads into Alberta this time. However, he has to challenge the Conservatives in the area regardless. There will be other issues that will piss off Albertans over time. It's inevitable. What Dion has to do is capitalize on those mistakes and present policies that will help win seats that could be vulnerable the longer the Tories are in power.

[B. Max]

Dion might not make inroads into Alberta this time. However, he has to challenge the Conservatives in the area regardless. There will be other issues that will piss off Albertans over time. It's inevitable. What Dion has to do is capitalize on those mistakes and present policies that will help win seats that could be vulnerable the longer the Tories are in power.

Dion will never get to square one in the west never mind Alberta as far as anything meaningful goes. He wasn't speaking to Albertans while he was in Alberta. He telling the east, elect me and I will bring you the spoils, and look at me, I'm saying this in Alberta.

Unfortunately we seem to have a mime for a premier. His response should have been loud and clear to Dion and to Harper as well.

If Alberta separates it would go a long way in helping Canada meet its kyoto targets.

[blueblood]

Why not buy our own oil at market price and boost our economy? Importing while we're a net exporter don't look that good. Wouldn't we save money on transport costs?

Actually, free trade to some degree has allowed a much more efficient solution to develop.

Oil costs money to transport, actually in pipelines it costs alot of money to transport. To send our oil to hubs in the Midwest is costly, but people in the Midwest are pretty much in a geographical situation where it must be piped to them. So we do.

Now looking at Eastern Canada or Toronto, it's much cheaper to transport oil in tankers... however suprising that may sound, people don't account for the massive costs of pipelines building, maintenance and land issues. So you get your oil from the Gulf Coast US, Venezuela or North Sea/Norway (possibly some Middle East oil in there too). Proximity to the St. Lawerence Seaway gives you cheaper oil, adding the additional transportation costs through pipeline would add perhaps 2% to the cost of your oil... that's a big deal in the big picture.

It's a rather good (with some exceptions) market solution that gives Alberta more money in profits, Ontario cheaper oil and the US a secure supply.

That having been said wouldn't it be cheaper still and better for our economy to open up the East Coast Oil reserves then?

[Ricki Bobbi]

Dion will never get to square one in the west never mind Alberta as far as anything meaningful goes. He wasn't speaking to Albertans while he was in Alberta. He telling the east, elect me and I will bring you the spoils, and look at me, I'm saying this in Alberta.

Unfortunately we seem to have a mime for a premier. His response should have been loud and clear to Dion and to Harper as well.

If Alberta separates it would go a long way in helping Canada meet its kyoto targets.

The Liberals will never be able to do anything meaningful in the West.

We are not their base and will never support the Liberals in a meaningful way. The Liberals know that and that's why they have never really tried to win the west. All though Keith Davey's "Screw the West We'll Win the Rest." campaign slogan was ignant!

That is why the two biggest wins in history have been by Conservatives. Under very specific conditions the Conservatives can appeal to Quebec, Ontario and the Maritimes all while holding their base in the West. Unfortunatley holding this coaltion together has proven a very tough ting to do.

It is interesting that Dion made his speech at the University of Alberta. The U of A is in Edmonton-Strathcona. Undoubtedly the most leftish riding in the province. Rahim Jaffer is never really going to live down that radio stunt. Fortunately for Rahim it appears that both the NDP and Liberals are going to try and target that riding. Thus splitting the left vote their and letting Rahim slip in again...

[jdobbin]

Dion will never get to square one in the west never mind Alberta as far as anything meaningful goes. He wasn't speaking to Albertans while he was in Alberta. He telling the east, elect me and I will bring you the spoils, and look at me, I'm saying this in Alberta.

Unfortunately we seem to have a mime for a premier. His response should have been loud and clear to Dion and to Harper as well.

If Alberta separates it would go a long way in helping Canada meet its kyoto targets.

Alberta is not going to separate. A separatist party can't even win a single seat in Alberta either federally or provincially. I've never seen any poll number showing Albertans being in favour of separation by a majority.

Alberta is a tough nut but if they keep pecking away at places like Edmonton, they could win a few seats back.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Alberta is a tough nut but if they keep pecking away at places like Edmonton, they could win a few seats back.

One and only seat is possible.

Maclellan fluked her way in the first time around. 12 votes??? Then got re-elected due to the pork barrel goodies she brought to the city. David Kilgour kept winning because Albertans like the rebel types.

I cannot think of a riding in the city that is vulnerable other than Edmonton Strathcona.

Remember this is a *vulnerable* riding in Alberta terms. It wouldn't be considered vulnerable anywhere else.

He won by a little less than 5,000 votes. Got a little under 42% of the vote which wins for you anywhere in the country.

[kimmy]

I don't think the federal Conservatives can take Alberta for granted. Albertans tend to have an us-vs-them mentality when it comes to federal politics, and will turn against the party in power en masse if they feel betrayed.

But I don't think the traditional Liberal message-- more centralization of power, big national programs, more redistribution of wealth-- is one that will ever appeal to Alberta. But perhaps Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC are more susceptible to that sort of idea.

-k

[jdobbin]

I don't think the federal Conservatives can take Alberta for granted. Albertans tend to have an us-vs-them mentality when it comes to federal politics, and will turn against the party in power en masse if they feel betrayed.

But I don't think the traditional Liberal message-- more centralization of power, big national programs, more redistribution of wealth-- is one that will ever appeal to Alberta. But perhaps Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC are more susceptible to that sort of idea.

If there was one message from the Democrats in the mid-terms in the U.S. is that to win you have to challenge in all seats and not admit defeat even before you start. Democrats in the States challenged total safe Republicans seats going into the election. They kept pecking away at it. Some of the Republicans self-destructed, some fell to a wave of unpopularity and others because fell to the winds of change despite being popular.

At the moment, I don't think anyone can properly assess the Dion approach. He names his shadow cabinet this week. This will be an important first step. From there, it will be easier to judge how they critique the government. Beyond that, it will be the first inkling of what they would do differently.

[madmax]

If there was one message from the Democrats in the mid-terms in the U.S. is that to win you have to challenge in all seats and not admit defeat even before you start. Democrats in the States challenged total safe Republicans seats going into the election. They kept pecking away at it. Some of the Republicans self-destructed, some fell to a wave of unpopularity and others because fell to the winds of change despite being popular.

You are in dreamland. Republicans made their bed in the popularity of the War against Iraq. It did have 75% support at one time. The War went south, and so did the Republican Majorities. About as good a storm as the Democrats could get. Harper tied himself to the War in Iraq, he just didn't have to bleed it. And now that his government is in power, they haven't done anything that is really going to make a hill of beans difference in Alberta. It is a blue Province, that is their identity.

[Saturn]

That having been said wouldn't it be cheaper still and better for our economy to open up the East Coast Oil reserves then?

Of course it would be better but the East Coast has to force Mr. Harper to let them do it because he doesn't want to at this point.

[Saturn]

If Alberta separates it would go a long way in helping Canada meet its kyoto targets.

Any plans in the works?

[Saturn]

No no, they can have policies good for Alberta. Kennedy mentioned a whole shwack of policies that would benefit Alberta.

Of course they can. But whatever policies they come up with, Albertans will never see them as beneficial for Alberta. There is no way in hell that Dion can win more than 2 seats short of coming up with a special new tax on ROC and distributing the proceeds by writing every Albertan $10K cheque every year. So no, he is wasting his time in Alberta and he should concentrate his efforts elsewhere. What may work in his favour though would be Albertans setting up some new reform-style party after the CPC gets on their nerves (which they will) in which case the Liberals can benefit from some vote splitting. But that's not in the cards for the next election.

[B. Max]

If Alberta separates it would go a long way in helping Canada meet its kyoto targets.

Any plans in the works?

None that are fast enough moving for me. Change seems to take a long time but when it happens, it happens real fast.

Our mime for a premier must be a little nervous though. I hear his handlers wouldn't allow any pictures to be taken with him and the jolly green Dion.

[mikedavid00]

Announce a policy that allows provinces to overstep Ottawa (like Quebec does) in bringing in skilled immigrants

There are skilled immigants already in Alberta that can simply not find jobs. This is proveable from countless people claiming they cannot find various skilled jobs in various parts of Alberta. Too many for me to list actually.

I believe that currently there are low paying labor jobs in Alberta. People (especially immigrants) do not want to work them. It's not worth anyones time to move from the east to Alberta simply to work a facroty job or another part time job. (seing as 9 out of 10 jobs created in Alberta of recent have been low paying part time jobs).

Last I saw on a CBC-A story from satellite was a job agency who 'couldn't fill numbers' and had 40 open positions. Well, these were short term, low paying temp jobs for factory workers that were all calling in sick after Christmas. That's more truthful to the situation. Tim Hortons not finding employees. That's more truthful to the situation. I researched Alberta's job postings heavily while in Montreal and did not find a single suitable job. Rather, simply jobs with very high requirements for the actual position which implies no shortage. Actually very reminissent of Ottawa's market.

or how about a policy that creates a worker program where Alberta companies can reduce some of the barriers that prevent us from importing Maritimers to fill in the job vacancies.

Is this really geoffery or saturn?

There are already work permits that these companies can use to hire skilled foriegn workers. They aren't doing so because there is no shortage of skilled labor. We have work permits even for unskilled work, but companies are not taking advantage of these. I guess they aren't needed 'that badly'. Companies can do telephone interviews and hire employees from out east and pay to bring them over. They did this all the time during the tech boom in the late 90's, but they do not do this in Alberta. There are reasons for this.

How about a recognition of the contributions of small-business to Canada by eliminating much of the corporate tax on small-business entities (as most provinces have).

I completley agree.

I'm not asking for a so-con revolution and slashing of 50% of Ottawa's spending...

I am.

I think Alberta's low unemployment is due to the fact that you have taken in such a low share of immigrants throughout the years and have a more natural people vs. job ratio like the US. The economy got good in Alberta, now there is a good 'job for everyone' at this point in time. These jobs have already been filled though. These poisitions are finite. But it's at it's peak right now due to the very low creation of new full time jobs.

People usually are 'late' to react when there is a stock boom, job boom, real estate boom. It's natural. People only talk when it's at its peak. Right now Alberta is at it's peak and doesn't show any viable signs of skilled shortages. In Montreal I sat with International students all rambling about Alberta. My fiance's father cut out a newspaper ad showing jobs in nursing, factory work, and other manual labor. Whoopy. Let's move to Alberta for low paying jobs.

People in Alberta, Ireland, Australia, did well silently in the last couple of years. The media wasn't reporting when people moved 'up' in life these last few years. Now the low paying jobs are in demand, Tim Hortons don't have workers, and the sky has fallen. There is a new job crisis in Alberta for skilled labor.

It's nonsense IMO. The media are not job experts. They specialize in printing headlines to sell newspapers. The pundits are also not experts and have no real experience. Just text book theories. They jump on bandwagons to gain visibility.

Here is reality:

"Hello,

My visit was occasioned by the distress I am feeling about being in Edmonton, Alberta for almost four years now and still not able to have even an interview for a job anywhere close to my qualification.

Frankly, I am sick and tired of this situation but refuse to pack up my back and return to Jamaica. My decision is to do whatever necessary to help publicize the plight of professionals who migrate to this country, lured by the idea of a land of multiculturalism and opportunities for all. The only opportunity that I have seen is to accept downwardly mobile careers - even after completing a Canadian Master degree -- which is my second.

Claudette. Alberta."

[Ricki Bobbi]

Of course they can. But whatever policies they come up with, Albertans will never see them as beneficial for Alberta. There is no way in hell that Dion can win more than 2 seats short of coming up with a special new tax on ROC and distributing the proceeds by writing every Albertan $10K cheque every year. So no, he is wasting his time in Alberta and he should concentrate his efforts elsewhere. What may work in his favour though would be Albertans setting up some new reform-style party after the CPC gets on their nerves (which they will) in which case the Liberals can benefit from some vote splitting. But that's not in the cards for the next election.

That is such a f*cking joke and why the Liberals don't get it.

They have no clue about what Alberta wants and make ridiculous claims. A special tax on everybody but Alberta and a $10K cheque every year? That's ridiculous.

Alberta pays more in than we take out of confederation. All we want is a little consideration of that fact and respect. Instead it is pay more, more, more everytime. And ignorant claims about what it is that we truly want. Belittled and mocked as hicks.

Gerard Kennedy could have *possibly* appealed to Albertans. His ideas of an enterprise economy would have hit home very well here.

[Saturn]

None that are fast enough moving for me. Change seems to take a long time but when it happens, it happens real fast.

Our mime for a premier must be a little nervous though. I hear his handlers wouldn't allow any pictures to be taken with him and the jolly green Dion.

Well, you better start working on it then. It won't just happen without any effort on your behalf.

[Saturn]

They have no clue about what Alberta wants and make ridiculous claims. A special tax on everybody but Alberta and a $10K cheque every year? That's ridiculous.

Alberta pays more in than we take out of confederation. All we want is a little consideration of that fact and respect. Instead it is pay more, more, more everytime. And ignorant claims about what it is that we truly want. Belittled and mocked as hicks.

Of course it's a joke. It would never happen.

What kind of respect do you expect? I hear this over and over again but noone says what respect actually means. Care to explain?

[normanchateau]

The Liberals will never be able to do anything meaningful in the West.

We are not their base and will never support the Liberals in a meaningful way. The Liberals know that and that's why they have never really tried to win the west.

Who says "we" will never support the Liberals in a meaningful way? The Liberals control most of the seats in both Vancouver and Victoria. The Conservative candidate in David Emerson's riding in January, 2006, received a miniscule 18% of the popular vote. The Conservatives lost seats in British Columbia in both of the last two federal elections. And the last poll I saw which broke down federal voting intentions in BC in the next election found the following:

"In B.C., the Liberals would get the support of 39 per cent of voters, compared to 26 per cent for the Tories and 24 per cent for the NDP."

Source:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...fab6195&k=18732

Sure that was more than a month ago and by now, it would not surprise me if Liberal support has softened.

But the fact remains that in both of the last federal elections, the Conservatives did not win a majority of the popular vote in BC. Support for parties to the left of the Conservatives far outnumbers support for the Conservatives in BC.

And by a remarkable coincidence, the National Campaign Manager for Stephane Dion's successful campaign to become leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, as well as the National Campaign Co-Chair for the Liberal campaign in the next federal election, happens to reside in the West, specifically Vancouver.

[geoffrey]

Gerard Kennedy could have *possibly* appealed to Albertans. His ideas of an enterprise economy would have hit home very well here.

A Liberal advocating a reasonable approach to bringing our economy into the 21st century is too dangerous to the Quebec elitists... hence we get Dion instead of Kennedy.

It was obviously going to be one or the other with the deal they made. The Liberals choose big government old policies focused on winning back Quebec.

Kennedy is no small government guy, he's a Liberal's liberal. But his thoughts on enterprise and small business were ground breaking in Eastern Canada, and simply, they didn't get it. In Western Canada they were highly popular. Even in Ontario he was a popular candidate for his overwelming track record on education.

But yet again they pick a rather medicore academic with an absolutely horrendous ministerial track record.

It's the same old Liberals, policy over results. And that's why again they won't win a seat in Alberta. With a different focus, they'd have little trouble winning some seats in both Calgary and Edmonton.