Afghan mission "doomed to fail"

White Doors · January 12, 2007

Catchme

An uneducated, biased, insulting world view such as yours as has been revealed here is the most insulting thing to Canadian veterans. I know, I have shown them your posts. They LAUGH at your assertions that you are a veteran and cry at your vandalism of the good, valiant, Canadian name in history.

So you know.

Think about that when you are trying to sleep at night. They said that they feel sorry for you.

White Doors · January 12, 2007

Seriously, was there any dounbt that good 'ol Winston would be voted the greatest man of the 20th century?

White Doors · January 12, 2007

Many of the people with more insight on the future

And WHO has more insight into the future? I'd like to know. I have a few stocks I'd like to discuss. Please PM me.

Thanks.

Catchme · January 12, 2007

Catchme
An uneducated, biased, insulting world view such as yours as has been revealed here is the most insulting thing to Canadian veterans. I know, I have shown them your posts. They LAUGH at your assertions that you are a veteran and cry at your vandalism of the good, valiant, Canadian name in history.

So you know.

Think about that when you are trying to sleep at night. They said that they feel sorry for you.

Spare me your rhetoric white doors, your nasty pm's and your attempts to deflect away from the serious nature of army.ca using Hitler's quotes.

BTW, did you show your Veterans that, I think not. Or you would not be thinking it was me vandalizing anything, but it would be those who use a quote of Hitler's.

As I showed and read it to the ones I know, and they "cry" for the young ones in today's Canadian military that know no better and that are being sucked into the USA's lying quagmires and losing their lives over it. And they are more than taken aback by the use of Hitler's quote, in fact, perhaps you all should watch for a comment from the WWII Veterans on it.

And just what insulting world view do I have white doors, as I do not recall making a opinion on the world? :rolleyes:

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

Many of the people with more insight on the future

And WHO has more insight into the future? I'd like to know. I have a few stocks I'd like to discuss. Please PM me.

Thanks.

This guy knows something about Afghanistan. You can send me the commission if he points you to the right stocks.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070101faes...fghanistan.html

For decades -- not only since 2001 -- U.S. policymakers have underestimated the stakes in Afghanistan. They continue to do so today. A mere course correction will not be enough to prevent the country from sliding into chaos. Washington and its international partners must rethink their strategy and significantly increase both the resources they devote to Afghanistan and the effectiveness of those resources' use. Only dramatic action can reverse the perception, common among both Afghans and their neighbors, that Afghanistan is not a high priority for the United States -- and that the Taliban are winning as a result. Washington's appeasement of Pakistan, diversion of resources to Iraq, and perpetual underinvestment in Afghanistan -- which gets less aid per capita than any other state with a recent postconflict rebuilding effort -- have fueled that suspicion.

Jean_Poutine · January 12, 2007

Then respond to Catchme in her post. If you are going to quote me and respond to Catchme, take a hike.

I think both of you have made inaccurate comments and replied to both in one post. Did I accuse you of having the same opinion as Catchme, or ignore what Catchme said? Nope.

As for what Catchme has said since, I think it's already been covered, but at risk of being redundant:

Their first target was an abandoned grape drying hut with metre-thick mud walls said to have the resiliency of bullet-proof armour.
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/061203/w120323A.html

When Canadian forces are attacked from those buildings, the buildings become legitimate targets, and it's not like civilians live in them.

I said..."Even our Leopard Tanks cannot go up the Mountains any better than the Soviet Ones." That is the Quote you have chosen to respond to with pictures showing me what a tank is capable of. I have been in a Tank, you don't have to show me pictures of a tank on a Gravel or Paved road. I said MOUNTAINS.

Yes, your argument is based on terrain, and I have given links to pictures that clearly SHOW the terrain where the tanks are being used. I don't care if you live in a tank and want to talk about mountains until you're blue in the face. It's a moot point when you can clearly see -- through photos not a mental image -- that it's not an issue where they are operating. Moreover, it's the ROADS not the MOUNTAINS that are the problem.

Oh get over yourself. The Leopard Tanks particularly the newest versions are arguably the best tanks in the world.

Canada doesn't have any newer versions of Leopards.

Since 1990, the Leopard 1 has gradually been relegated to secondary roles in most armies, except for the Canadian Army where it remains the primary offensive fighting vehicle and the Australian Army where it is due for replacement. In the Bundeswehr it has been fully replaced by the Leopard 2.
A number of the Canadian Leopard tanks were pulled out of service in anticipation of replacing them with the eight-wheeled Mobile Gun System, but these plans were put on hold. Of the obsoleted tanks, 23 were sold to companies in North America, 4 put in museums or used as monuments, and 21 used as hard targets on ranges. The Canadian Army web site list indicates that 66 Leopard C2 remain in service.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_tank

Why are you not aware of this if you have so much military experience?

Canada could have picked up newer versions at a dirt cheap price, but chose not to:

A team of staff officers, who monitor the military surplus-equipment market, did talk to both European countries last June about purchasing little-used A-4 and A-5 versions of the Leopard-2 tank.
"They were checking prices that were out there, but that staff check did not go any further," said Lieut. Adam Thomson.

The decision not to proceed was made last summer mostly because military planners had not identified a need for the armoured vehicles, he said.

"That's why they haven't considered it further," said Thomson.

A new Leopard-2 tank goes for about US$6 million, but used ones can be had for US$350,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/061101/n110194.html

$350,000 for a lightly used $6 million dollar tank, and they say no?

As for an identified need, they didn't identify a need for Chinooks either when they got rid of them, and now they're wishing they had them.

You should ask for a job in the aquisitions department of the DND now that you are an expert.

Well, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but I did read the Toronto Star: Here's an article about the vehicles in use.

I'm also inquisitive enough to use a search engine when I want more information about something.

A quick search will show that the top three tanks are considered to be the Leopard 2A6 (which IS the newest version), Challenger 2 and Abrams. The Abrams uses depleted uranium, which I'm not a fan of, and if Canada used a tank that had DU, people like Catchme would probably call it nuclear warfare. Given that Canada already uses Leopard 1s, it stands to reason that moving to the Leopard 2A6 would be a smooth transition, and therefore, a logical choice. The Challenger 2 is a newer tank that seems to be highly rated, and as far as I know, it doesn't use DU. It takes about 5 minutes with a search engine to figure this out.

Surprisingly enough, I can find pictures of Iraqi Children on US tanks, early pictures, and Lebanese SHia Families rallying around Israeli tanks back before the days of Hezbollah.

Surprisingly enough, you seem to have trouble debating the issue at hand so you turn to other conflicts, which is like comparing apples to oranges.

There is only 2,200 troops. How many in the Medical Facilities? Afghans have been receiving foreign doctors and medicare long since the departure of the USSR. I am not certain, who other than Afghan Civilians and Soldiers would be treated by Canadian Medical Facilities?

Actually, it's closer to 2500.

The medical facilities I referred to are the same facilities that treat wounded Canadians. It's where the Canadians that were wounded in A-10 friendly fire were treated.

Go here: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...61105/20061106/ and click on "Saluting Our Soldiers" on the right hand side. In the video pop up, select: "Canada AM: Maj. James Bradley gives a tour of medical facilities in Kandahar." from the menu.

That is where we differ. The Taliban don't have to care, and we do. But it will make no difference.

They don't have to treat civilians that the Taliban wound, yet they do, and to say that their efforts make no difference is not only pessimistic, but I would say it's somewhat derogatory. The same can be said about belittling the amount of medical care they provide in an attempt to win an argument. I have no problem with the fact that we differ on that.

No I don't believe that all ethnics think alike. It is a gross generalization. However, you wish to think that the various different Afghan factions will think like you do or westerns do, and this is just not gonna happen. If this was the case, Hamid Karzai would have more support. You would be listening to Rawa, which has the most western leaning values of any movement. But Afghanistan is a mesh of the Good the bad and the Ugly.
With alot of bad and alot of ugly wielding the power.

How about you stick to speaking for yourself?

Afghans don't have to think like westerners in order to want a better life than they'd have under the Taliban.

Canadian Blue · January 12, 2007

And here you are calling names, when in your last post you're trying to tell me the Canadian military is so PC and upstanding, and all that!

I'm calling you names because any numbskull could probably figure out that the quote index is from people throughout history and is not supporting nazi views.

Never would I get an account there, and there can be NO jsutification for using a Hitler quote at a military support site. Private or not!

Why not, most military member's I know often use and refer to the site, it's probably the best site out there. As well the fact that you are making unfounded accusation's without asking the site admin is enough to show how much of a drama queen you are.

As I said the Gandhi quote minimalizes the nature of Hitler's quote and nothing more IMV.

How do you think we should rewrite history?

The quote section is one of a broad base, and many people will refer to Hitler's quote, not necessarily out of support but to show the irony and hypocrisy. Which is something people can't get a grip on.

And how about we let the general public decide what they think and the peoples who were and maybe impacted by those words of Hitler's being in a Canadian Army support site, eh?

Then the general public will think were all neo-nazi's in the Canadian military, thanks to you.

Great job catchme. :rolleyes:

And I am making NO accusations, nor have I made any, again I will say: I want to know the justification for the use of such a thing, and if this type of promotion of Hitler's word is common in the Canadian military?

How do you know they are promoting Hitler, should we rewrite history and take Hitler out. Whether you like it or not what Hitler has said still has an impact on today's world, and once again try asking the site admin before you go on a rant.

Because to me, using Hitler's words, at the very least, make a mockery of those Canadians who died and fought in WWII.

No it isn't, and it was never meant to be "motivational". What the fuck don't you understand about that.

Honestly, stop getting offended by everything, shut the fuck up, and ask the site admin about the quote section and they will explain everything to you.

How you can fail to see that I do not understand?!

I can see that you do not understand.

Spare me your rhetoric white doors, your nasty pm's and your attempts to deflect away from the serious nature of army.ca using Hitler's quotes.

Well sign up as many member's of the military have, and ask the admin.

Why don't you ask why they put up Hitler quotes instead of judging back here based on unfounded accusation's.

As I showed and read it to the ones I know, and they "cry" for the young ones in today's Canadian military that know no better and that are being sucked into the USA's lying quagmires and losing their lives over it. And they are more than taken aback by the use of Hitler's quote, in fact, perhaps you all should watch for a comment from the WWII Veterans on it.

I haven't met a single veteran who has cried about us serving, maybe in gratitude. However, those of us in the CF continue to do our duty, and do our best to defend Canada and serve this country abroad.

Then their's people like you catchme, that are making false and unfounded accusation's, which hurt our image among the Canadian public based on nothing but somebody twisting around information to make us out to be inspired and motivated by nazi's even if that's not the case.

Stop getting pissed off about every single little thing, and maybe get rational for once in your life. People have used Hitler quotes all the time, it's "general public knowledge", now your saying that member's of the CF are inspired by Adolf Hitler which is 110% untrue.

THE QUOTE SECTION IS NOT MEANT TO BE "MOTIVATIONAL" FOR FUCK SAKES.

Stop spreading your bullshit opinion, and stop trying to rewrite history.

The site isn't meant to be "motivational", however can be a good reference for anyone interested in the military.

One of my favorite quotes from the site has to be:

I had as comrades in my [World War I army] section men whose names were: Cameron, Kimora, English, Gleidenstein, de Chapin, O'Shaughnessy. We didn't fall in or fall out as Irish Canadians, French Canadians, Dutch Canadians, Japanese Canadians. We wore the same uniform, with the same maple leaf badge, and we were proud to be known as Canadians, to serve as Canadians and to die, if it had to be, as Canadians.
- Lester B. Pearson

Anyway, if you "were" in the military, I'm sure you have heard this.

SORT YOUR SHIT OUT

Catchme · January 12, 2007

Canadian blue said: I'm calling you names because any numbskull could probably figure out that the quote index is from people throughout history and is not supporting nazi views.

Calling names is against the rules, debate the topic.

How do you think we should rewrite history?

Never said a word about rewriting history, just where do you get this stuff from?

The quote section is one of a broad base, and many people will refer to Hitler's quote, not necessarily out of support but to show the irony and hypocrisy. Which is something people can't get a grip on.

Not necessarily out of support, and just how would those word's of Hitler's be used for ironic purposes and and hypocrisy? Your stretching too far.

And how about we let the general public decide what they think and the peoples who were and maybe impacted by those words of Hitler's being in a Canadian Army support site, eh?

Then the general public will think were all neo-nazi's in the Canadian military, thanks to you.

Thanks to me? I never put the Hitler quote up there at army.ca, try placing the blame on the right people for their error in judgement at the very least. I am just asking the public at large what they think about it. Perhaps they will think nothing and perhaps they will think something.

Great job catchme.

No problem!

How do you know they are promoting Hitler, should we rewrite history and take Hitler out. Whether you like it or not what Hitler has said still has an impact on today's world, and once again try asking the site admin before you go on a rant.

No, I would never trust someone with my IP that puts Hitler quotes up thanks anyway.

Because to me, using Hitler's words, at the very least, make a mockery of those Canadians who died and fought in WWII.

No it isn't, and it was never meant to be "motivational". What the fuck don't you understand about that.

How do you say it isn't? And why/how do you not understand using Hitler's words at a Canadian military site is wrong headed? Are you worried that we will find out something in the ensuing investigation?

Honestly, stop getting offended by everything, shut the fuck up, and ask the site admin about the quote section and they will explain everything to you.

Please you need to get a grip on the offensive posts.

How you can fail to see that I do not understand?!

I can see that you do not understand.

No, you do not understand how offensive it is using Hitlers words at a Canadian military site. And I really have to question the thinking of those who do not see how wrong it is.

Spare me your rhetoric white doors, your nasty pm's and your attempts to deflect away from the serious nature of army.ca using Hitler's quotes.

Well sign up as many member's of the military have, and ask the admin.

Are you white doors too?

As I showed and read it to the ones I know, and they "cry" for the young ones in today's Canadian military that know no better and that are being sucked into the USA's lying quagmires and losing their lives over it. And they are more than taken aback by the use of Hitler's quote, in fact, perhaps you all should watch for a comment from the WWII Veterans on it.

I haven't met a single veteran who has cried about us serving, maybe in gratitude.

I was speaking about them crying out about the Hitler quote, please respond to what the comments were about as opposed to going off on a tangent about something other. having said that, not too many I know are happy about Afghanistan either though.

However, those of us in the CF continue to do our duty, and do our best to defend Canada and serve this country abroad.

Defend Canada from what we were NOT attacked.

Then their's people like you catchme, that are making false and unfounded accusation's, which hurt our image among the Canadian public based on nothing but somebody twisting around information to make us out to be inspired and motivated by nazi's even if that's not the case.

I am twisting nothing, nor am I hurting anyone's image, if army.ca is doing that by quoting Hitler, that is their problem, if the Canadian military personal are not conducting themselves accordingly, and that is found out, then that is their problem, not mine. I have every right to question the actions of the Canadian militray, and those that try to say not and attempt to intimidate people from having their say, perhaps need to look at their own actions.

Stop getting pissed off about every single little thing, and maybe get rational for once in your life. People have used Hitler quotes all the time, it's "general public knowledge", now your saying that member's of the CF are inspired by Adolf Hitler which is 110% untrue.

Again I never said a word about inspirational why do you keep using that term? Nor do I see people using Hitler quotes all the time. Unless it is in a historical documentary or regarding the travesty of the Holocaust, I in fact never see it. And frankly, that you say people quote Hitler all the time scares me even more. As that means you hear his words on a regular basis.

THE QUOTE SECTION IS NOT MEANT TO BE "MOTIVATIONAL" FOR FUCK SAKES.

Really? When I see a quote such as that at a miltary site, I would never think: "gee, how nice of them to put up peoples in history quotes to be used in everyday life". :rolleyes: Especially not one with a message such as that!

Maybe Hitlers' quote was innocent and means nothing, but it still lacks mature thought and appropriateness.

Stop spreading your bullshit opinion, and stop trying to rewrite history.

I can say my opinions about army.ca quoting Hitler, and about Afghanistan, all I want thank you very much, last time I looked we were not yet in a Fascist state, and again just how am I trying to re-write history? :rolleyes:

Catchme · January 12, 2007

BTW Canadian Blue, nice quote about WWI, however WWI personal have NO bearing on today's military people in Canada. My Grandfather was one of the 1st 500, actually he was one of the 1st 15 or so out of the 500, to enlist in WWI. The others were his brothers and cousins. In fact, he was 1 of few who survived the massacre at Beaumont Hammell, and many in our family didn't.

Moreover, I am not going to be all sentimental about the professed honourableness of the Canadian military, I have been there and know differently. Nor am I going to be blindly patriotic towards them. This does not mean I am not supportive of them it means, that blind patriotism IS WRONG under any circumstance.

***Also, I see you edited your last post to me, good thing I got all the nasties you said before you did.

Canadian Blue · January 12, 2007

No I edited my post to add on to it.

I also notice that you have refused to address slandering a website, and the admin without first questioning the site admin about the quote section.

Either way I think you've been beat or are starting to backtrack.

As well I highly doubt what you claim, since you also said you were a member of the Canadian Military, which I don't think is true.

You haven't been there, any member of the military would be careful when making accusation's of Canadian soldier's being motivated by Adolf Hitler. That is an insult to any service member out there.

As for being blind, your pretty blind to everything out there. The fact your such a drama queen is further proof of that.

"I'm going to e-mail everyone some quotes which I believe motivate Canadian soldiers, even if they might not be for motivation but for a reference, either way I'm going to make a bunch of judgement's about something I know nothing about" -Basically sum's up Catchme.

Army Guy · January 12, 2007

Catchme:

No, I am most cetainly thinking my responses through, I am not the one who has had to back track because of being hasty and incorrect. But thanks for your ill founded concern

No you are using a few sources and declaring them as the only answer, and the only truth. What you have failed to do is to check out everyone elses sources. Or for that matter disregarded what they have said.

Being made by Hitler says a great deal, especially when one thinks about the duty to which Hitler is speaking of when he said: "Let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us".
His/their duty was to exterminate the Jews and others less worthy people. In fact, I wonder what the Canadian Jewish Council would have to say about this quote being up at a Canadian Military site? Say nothing of what it implies regarding Afghanistan and Canada's mission there. So, yes, I will be forwarding it to both the Jewish and Muslim councils in Canada, as well as the Canadian government and media.

Actually many military members have read Mien Kumpf which was written by Adolf hilter, or other publications such as "the good old days" written by an SS officer trying to get some insight or understanding of what germany's military was all about ,in fact many other quotes have been used by other German generals of the same period in most other militaries of the world including Israel. Such as quotes from rommel, etc.etc. Thier ideas about modern mech warfare are still being used today...

But your comment you are putting all german soldiers whom have served thier nation into one basket. when a majority of them had nothing to do with thier Jewish solution, or the extermination of the unwanted. And is therefore false.

The same ilk eh? What type of ilk is that? This Canadian has no patience for exterminationist thinking and promotion of that ideology within our military ranks! Nor do I think most Canadians would feel any different than I if they knew. And know they will soon enough.

Those interested in the military and it's history. You have seen one quote out of many and have taken offense to it, really it was just a quote ,no where do they promote exterminationist thinking. But then again it seems to be the theme of all your responses here on this forum.

Perhaps you should take what ever action you need to, and return the focus back to the topic at hand.

Nnever said they were and embarrassment, somehow you people have tried to give that impression and yes, until Afghanistan, it was the Canadian militaries primary focus, again do I have republish all the proof?

I did not say you did, Your proof has been discounted and proven to be incorrect, what is left is your opinion, which you are entitled to, you've made it clear that you are not going to change that...The Majority here will agree that our military primary focus has not been peacekeeping" and we are not going to change that fact. So lets move on shall we...

Army Guy · January 12, 2007

jdobbin:

The reason Cyprus didn't come up often is because it basically had become a mission of keeping the sides apart. While there was share of violence, the overall status of the mission was peacekeeping. Canada eventually left not because the mission was complete but because it was the mission was being funded almost entirely by Canada in the latter years.

After 27 years one would hope that the mission had turned to just keeping the sides apart. As for the rest of the comment i disagree Canada's pull out from Cyprus had alot with being over extended in Bosina, it was also the time that we had decided to increase our numbers there in bosina. As for us funding the mission, not true there was serveral contingents there the same size or greater, plus the British had a much larger force on the Island and for most part pumped more resources there than we did.

I don't see Bosnia in isolation. The break up of Yugoslavia had many components. Slovenia was able to break away after a quick ten day war with Yugoslavia. Other areas such as Bosnia were going to be more of problem because of ethnic diversity. In the end, the U.N and NATO were unable to prevent the worst of ethnic cleansing and civil war. I think it was foolish to think they would

The earily portion of the mission was UN and i don't think many will disagree that it was a diaster, with being not thought ourt or planned correctly , not enough troops on the ground, and was deployed way to soon. However it was not until NATO did get involved that things started to sort itself out, alot of that had to do with the introduction of armour, fast air and heavy arty...in other words a powerful force something that all the bad guys respected.

Canada has about 650 people in Bosnia. The mission has become one of keeping sides apart.

Todays Bosina mission has been cut to under 70 pers most of which are reservist postions and are more involved in crime prevention than peacekeeping.

What makes Afghanistan different is that NATO is doing a mission it has never done before: nation building.

The whole idea of rebuilding nations perdates Bosina, infact it is the Bosina model that was being used in the earily Afgan mission.

And it is doing it in a country that has resisted all past attempts to mold it. The tribalism of Afghanistan butts heads against nationalism. Moreover, religion still plays a part in crushing those people who would try to build the country.

I will agree with you that Afgan is a based upon Tribalism, and it does come before nationalism...I think Afgan loyalities are divided to first family, then to tribe or clan, then to Afgan then to religion has there fall back postion. That being said it does not mean that a peaceful postion can not be found here, just that it is making it far much more difficult and as such is takening that much longer.

Canada was not at war for 27 years in Cyprus. Canada has never been at war with anyone for more than six years. Afghanistan could very well be the war that lasts as long as the Vietnam War. And that war lasted 10,000 days.

I will agree with you on Cyprus, but my indication of war is how much ammo our government gives it's soldiers, in Cyprus it was 20 rounds, in Bosina we were issued a full war load 150 rds, plus grenades and anti tank wpns, that remained the issued for more than 6 years, infact it was the basic load up until we left on roto 14 minus the grenades and Anti tank wpns.. Now in Afgan lets just say you do not leave the wire with under 12 mags of 30 rds each with most carrying far more than that. that is not including smoke, granades, anti tank wpns, etc etc..

White Doors · January 12, 2007

SORT YOUR SHIT OUT

ahhh ahahahhahaha!!!

White Doors · January 12, 2007

Moreover, I am not going to be all sentimental about the professed honourableness of the Canadian military, I have been there and know differently

So in your opinion the Canadian Military is not honourable?

Please extrapolate here.

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

After 27 years one would hope that the mission had turned to just keeping the sides apart. As for the rest of the comment i disagree Canada's pull out from Cyprus had alot with being over extended in Bosina, it was also the time that we had decided to increase our numbers there in bosina. As for us funding the mission, not true there was serveral contingents there the same size or greater, plus the British had a much larger force on the Island and for most part pumped more resources there than we did.
The earily portion of the mission was UN and i don't think many will disagree that it was a diaster, with being not thought ourt or planned correctly , not enough troops on the ground, and was deployed way to soon. However it was not until NATO did get involved that things started to sort itself out, alot of that had to do with the introduction of armour, fast air and heavy arty...in other words a powerful force something that all the bad guys respected.

Todays Bosina mission has been cut to under 70 pers most of which are reservist postions and are more involved in crime prevention than peacekeeping.

The whole idea of rebuilding nations perdates Bosina, infact it is the Bosina model that was being used in the earily Afgan mission.

I will agree with you that Afgan is a based upon Tribalism, and it does come before nationalism...I think Afgan loyalities are divided to first family, then to tribe or clan, then to Afgan then to religion has there fall back postion. That being said it does not mean that a peaceful postion can not be found here, just that it is making it far much more difficult and as such is takening that much longer.

I will agree with you on Cyprus, but my indication of war is how much ammo our government gives it's soldiers, in Cyprus it was 20 rounds, in Bosina we were issued a full war load 150 rds, plus grenades and anti tank wpns, that remained the issued for more than 6 years, infact it was the basic load up until we left on roto 14 minus the grenades and Anti tank wpns.. Now in Afgan lets just say you do not leave the wire with under 12 mags of 30 rds each with most carrying far more than that. that is not including smoke, granades, anti tank wpns, etc etc..

It wasn't the mission in Bosnia that made Canada pull out of Cyprus. It was the $200 million dollar deficit that we kept funding. Denmark and Sweden had pulled out almost a decade earlier for the same reasons. Britain was threatening to pull out. And all of this started to happen long before the war started in Bosnia. Canada had set a timetable that the U.N. didn't meet. This was an event many years in the making. Eventually, we just brought our 500 soldiers home.

http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/twr24v7.html

By the time NATO became involved in Bosnia many of the incidents of the ethnic cleansing had already happened and people had moved from their homes to become refugees. What NATO did was prevent Serbia from further attacks as well as separating remaining warring populations.

According to DND:

http://www.international.gc.ca/foreign_pol...ribution-en.asp

Canada currently has 650 Canadian Forces Personnel serving in SFOR. SFOR is part of a major international effort to help Bosnia-Herzegovina reshape itself as a democratic European nation. The SFOR mission is to deter or respond to violence and, thus, provide the safe and secure environment necessary for the consolidation of peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina, with the goal of promoting a climate in which the peace process can make progress without the presence of NATO forces.

Tribalism is one of the most difficult situations to create a nation from. Can it be peaceful? Perhaps. But not with Pakistan feeding the flames.

The Bosnia model was not working in building Afghanistan. Bosnia was a peaceful place before the war started. Afghanistan has been at war with itself with only brief respites in hundreds of years.

The indication that you give me on equipment makes me think that 2010 will be far too early to say the fight is over. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to give a date when it will ever be over.

madmax · January 13, 2007

First, it's shoddy journalism to lean heavily on one source as this article does.
Second, the author asserts that most of the 36 soldiers killed last year were killed in fighting, but that isn't true. A quick check at CBC, which keeps reports of all people that are wounded and killed, shows that 17 were killed by mines/IEDs and suicide attacks, 5 by accidents and friendly fire, and 14 in combat.

I don't like using statistics much because we're talking about people not numbers, but it's important to be accurate in order to understand it and minimize the risk in the future.

I choose to go to your source at the CBC.

CBC News
At a glance: Deaths in Afghanistan

Deaths by year

2006 36 military, 1 diplomat

2005 1

2004 1

2003 2

2002 4

How they died (2002-2006)

Combat / attacked / explosions 35

Friendly fire 6

Accidental 4

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanis...ties/total.html

Yup shoddy journalism.

Jean_Poutine · January 13, 2007

I choose to go to your source at the CBC.
Yup shoddy journalism.

CBC lumps together combat AND attacks/explosions, but also lists reports on each case, and if you take a moment to look at it a little closer, you'll see that what I said is right.

I separated combat from mine/IDE/suicide attacks for a good reason: it's possible to avoid mines/IEDs and suicide attacks through the use of something like a Chinook, or at least provide the best armour possible.

Combat also implies an exchange of fire - ie that troops are able to fight back. Combat deaths are less than half of the total.

So, I stand by what I said.

Catchme · January 13, 2007

No I edited my post to add on to it.
I also notice that you have refused to address slandering a website, and the admin without first questioning the site admin about the quote section.

Either way I think you've been beat or are starting to backtrack.

As well I highly doubt what you claim, since you also said you were a member of the Canadian Military, which I don't think is true.

You haven't been there, any member of the military would be careful when making accusation's of Canadian soldier's being motivated by Adolf Hitler. That is an insult to any service member out there.

As for being blind, your pretty blind to everything out there. The fact your such a drama queen is further proof of that.

"I'm going to e-mail everyone some quotes which I believe motivate Canadian soldiers, even if they might Cot be for motivation but for a reference, either way I'm going to make a bunch of judgement's about something I know nothing about" -Basically sum's up Catchme.

LOL, Uh, no not I that has been beaten, I have not provided any false info, such as you people did about who funded the new equipment, the fact the Hitler quote was there, plus numerous things, I do not believe it is my integrity which is at question here, though you are trying to make it seem so.

Calling me names and labels is further proof that you have to resort to negative actions as opposed to supplying truth, which apparently you cannot do.

Then you would again be wrong that a former member would be careful, this one isn't, and will never be blindly supportive where there is wrong doing, behaviour like that in part allow tragedies and abuses to occur. Such is the case with what the US troops were/are doing Iraq. And talk of insults, as a former service member I am deeply insulted that today's military would be using Hitler quotes, for any reason, hence my chagrin.

Nor do I care whether or not you believe me, regarding my grandfather, neither I, nor him need validation such as yours. Perhaps if you had lived through what he did in WWI, you would have more integrity, and less, mind numbingly false rhetoric propaganda exhibited through your words.

If the services members were so concerned about not being perceived as being motivated by Hitler, they would have insisted the quote not be put there, one would think.

Moreover, army guy's words below yours show that he is being an apologist for German troops under Hitler, which is even more alarming and suggestive, when considered with the quote.

Anyway, I waste no more time upon those who patently are under full thrall of the US war machine and whose behaviour is so depleted they even stoop to quoting Hitler and being apologists for Hitler’s soldiers.

White Doors · January 13, 2007

Calling me names and labels is further proof that you have to resort to negative actions as opposed to supplying truth, which apparently you cannot do.

I provided the 2005 paper on defence from the governments own website about our militaries priorities and it DI NOT ONCE mention peacekeeping in the whole document. Yet you did not reply. Telling.

You avoid the facts that do not fit with your world view. You still insist on your fraudulent military service and insist that Canada's army is primarily for peace-keeping which is an outright lie as has been proven to you.

White Doors · January 13, 2007

Nor do I care whether or not you believe me, regarding my grandfather, neither I, nor him need validation such as yours. Perhaps if you had lived through what he did in WWI, you would have more integrity, and less, mind numbingly false rhetoric propaganda exhibited through your words

Are you saying that your grandfather is still living? Because that would be a VERY easy way to find out who you are. Yet you are strangely silent on your military service? telling.

White Doors · January 13, 2007

Anyway, I waste no more time upon those who patently are under full thrall of the US war machine and whose behaviour is so depleted they even stoop to quoting Hitler and being apologists for Hitler’s soldiers.

Your ignorance of history is obvious to all.

Catchme · January 13, 2007

Actually many military members have read Mien Kumpf which was written by Adolf hilter, or other publications such as "the good old days" written by an SS officer trying to get some insight or understanding of what germany's military was all about ,in fact many other quotes have been used by other German generals of the same period in most other militaries of the world including Israel. Such as quotes from rommel, etc.etc. Thier ideas about modern mech warfare are still being used today...
But your comment you are putting all german soldiers whom have served thier nation into one basket. when a majority of them had nothing to do with thier Jewish solution, or the extermination of the unwanted. And is therefore false.

I did not say you did, Your proof has been discounted and proven to be incorrect, what is left is your opinion, which you are entitled to, you've made it clear that you are not going to change that...The Majority here will agree that our military primary focus has not been peacekeeping" and we are not going to change that fact. So lets move on shall we...

Mien Kampf, not Kumf. Nice being apologists for Hitler's military now eh?! As for saying I am putting them all into 1 basket, most certainly. That you excuse them blows my mind.

And NONE of my proof has been discounted unlike yours. So please put an an example up of what contention of mine has been discounted?

And no not many have or will agree, the Canadian military focus has not been of peacekeeping, that you have so deluded yourself says much.

As I said to Canadian blue, I will waste NO more time on those who are so under thrall of the US military, and so full of erroneous propaganada and thinking that I am not even sure you are Canadian military.

White Doors · January 13, 2007

And NONE of my proof has been discounted unlike yours. So please put an an example up of what contention of mine has been discounted?

And no not many have or will agree, the Canadian military focus has not been of peacekeeping, that you have so deluded yourself says much.

haha. Your 'proofs' have been proven to be false by many on here and you ignore them. Now you are trying to tie our military into that of the USA. Surprise suprise that you are anti-american as well. How easily you fit into the mould of a far left peace-nik. Faking military service. Denigrating our armed forces. Asking that funding to our armed forces to be cut. Comparing our soldiers to Nazi's. Accusing Canada of deliberately killing civilians etc etc.

Come on, I'm sure you can bring Genghis Khan into this somehow. Oh! an Army that successfully invaded and controlled Afghanistan for hundreds of years! oops!

Canuck E Stan · January 13, 2007

Afghan war gains support

The online Jan. 8-10 survey of 2,206 Canadians by Innovative Research Group found 58 per cent of respondents support the military action compared with 38 per cent who are opposed.
The numbers, released yesterday, are in line with a Innovative survey done last June, but up from a followup October poll that had 54 per cent of Canadians backing the mission and 42 per cent opposed.

Of the 37 Canadians who died in Afghanistan last year, 26 perished between July and October.

Innovative Research president Greg Lyle said his research shows that Canadians are prepared to support the dangerous mission as long as they are convinced Canadian soldiers are providing critical assistance and bringing peace and democracy to the war-plagued country.

"The idea that we're a bunch of pacifists sitting around singing Kumbaya just isn't the way Canada is," he said.