Harper's Tories spend like taxes are their own personal money.

Catchme · December 31, 2006

Oh so he took journalist on one of the trips out of 10?

I realized it was the same jet the Harper et als screamed about, but to me I expected harper to use it, must like the whole Stornoway rhetoric.

Ricki Bobbi · December 31, 2006

Catchme, Saturn.

If you two are enjoying your little Harper-hater circle jerk here's a suggestion for you.

www.rabble.ca

Argus · December 31, 2006

I don't think Harper has the necessary charisma to have dedicated, die hard defenders.

We see some of those people here who love him most certainly.

There are a few more people who have measured responses while remaining supporters but the few that cheerlead uncritically certainly would be characterized as Harper lovers.

I'm not uncritical of Harper. But what I mainly see here is hypocrisy from people who excuse massive incompetence, misspending and corruption from the left and then pounce on anything they can possibly twist into an accusation because the government is conservative.

Had this same post been made about the previous Liberal government I would not have supported it because it seems to me like pretty normal government spending. And I'm quite sure the people who are acting all snotty and self righteous over this would have been entirely mute - as they were about genuine misspending by the last Liberal government.

Argus · December 31, 2006

whether anyone can show a trip done cheaper by the Liberals is irrelevant. The point here is that the CPC 'prides' its self on frugality no? Smaller Government, friscal responsibility... is this not what the point is?

I think the point is you obviously are a supporter of the other side - and so you clearly don't have a problem with massive misspending. So what business do you have coming over all self-righteous now?

Argus · December 31, 2006

Everything that Steve and his merry band do is justifiable to the apologists by the excuse "the Liberals." If the Liberals were doing the same thing they would scream their heads off.

Find me a similar case, then, where people "screamed their heads off" over the legitimate travel expenses of Liberal ministers to attend an important diplomatic event like a WTO meeting.

I dare you.

Ricki Bobbi · December 31, 2006

Find me a similar case, then, where people "screamed their heads off" over the legitimate travel expenses of Liberal ministers to attend an important diplomatic event like a WTO meeting.
I dare you.

Argus, that's just Fortunata's self-fulfilling fabrication.

She feels if she repeats the same falsehood time after time after time people will simply accept it as fact.

Good on you for calling her on the fib.

jdobbin · December 31, 2006

I'm not uncritical of Harper. But what I mainly see here is hypocrisy from people who excuse massive incompetence, misspending and corruption from the left and then pounce on anything they can possibly twist into an accusation because the government is conservative.
Had this same post been made about the previous Liberal government I would not have supported it because it seems to me like pretty normal government spending. And I'm quite sure the people who are acting all snotty and self righteous over this would have been entirely mute - as they were about genuine misspending by the last Liberal government.

Had the Liberals or any other party had dragged this on, I would be on them as well. I don't like the loosey goosey interpretation of the law. You obey it or you get a legal opinion other than you in house counsel. In this case, they should have gone to the horse's mouth at Elections Canada.

Ricki Bobbi · December 31, 2006

Had the Liberals or any other party had dragged this on, I would be on them as well. I don't like the loosey goosey interpretation of the law. You obey it or you get a legal opinion other than you in house counsel. In this case, they should have gone to the horse's mouth at Elections Canada.

Let's put aside the hysterics and look at this honestly.

This wasn't long and drawn out. It was dealt with in less than a year.

That is not a long time to deal with a case like this.

I am not a lawyer so am not qualified to judge the legal tact the CPC took in this case.

jbg · December 31, 2006

whether anyone can show a trip done cheaper by the Liberals is irrelevant. The point here is that the CPC 'prides' its self on frugality no? Smaller Government, friscal responsibility... is this not what the point is?

I would say more concern with the common man, less with the entities receiving corporate welfare, such as well-connected advertising agencies.

Fortunata · December 31, 2006

Find me a similar case, then, where people "screamed their heads off" over the legitimate travel expenses of Liberal ministers to attend an important diplomatic event like a WTO meeting.
I dare you.

Argus, that's just Fortunata's self-fulfilling fabrication.

She feels if she repeats the same falsehood time after time after time people will simply accept it as fact.

Good on you for calling her on the fib.

Oh Ricki Bobbi, you all knower of all things. My opinion is no more fib than your opinions and downright untruths. You say you research everything and you may, but with such a jaundiced eye you could not see truth in many instances if it smacked you upside the face.

Argus, you conservative types criticized the Liberals over all things just because they were Liberals. It is not a huge leap to say that the Steve bandwagon would have declared (as if they didn't; maybe not you specifically) on the Liberals just what the non-cons declared here. In this seemingly increasing partisan country that's the way of it. Are you saying you don't?

Fortunata · December 31, 2006

whether anyone can show a trip done cheaper by the Liberals is irrelevant. The point here is that the CPC 'prides' its self on frugality no? Smaller Government, friscal responsibility... is this not what the point is?

I would say more concern with the common man, less with the entities receiving corporate welfare, such as well-connected advertising agencies.

jbg, what the h do you know about it? More concern with the common man? Like cancelling literacy programs, women's programs, childcare program funding, increasing taxes (oh yeah, he did cut the GST by 1% which helps whom the most?), half a billion from post secondary education funding, the way they handled the income trusts which depleted many a senior's income? You mean that concern? They are no better than was the government before them for the well-being of Mr. Everyday-Joe-On-the-Street. And corporate welfare?.. such as maybe not cancelling the billions in subsidies to the oil companies who are making record profits? Different from the Liberals you say? Sure jbg, keep it coming.

geoffrey · December 31, 2006

I don't see why this has to be a partisan issue...when political parties overspend it is a waste of every ones money, demanding some level of accountability in public expendatures shouldn't be a partisan based issue, it should simply be an issue in the best interests of the Canadian tax payer.
If Paul Benoit Can get to switzerland on $1,800...would emerson be able to do it on $3,000? Basically we are looking at a cost of $6,000 per person. Clearly even in that group of people we have evidence that it can be done much cheaper. Yes, they were there to do a job, but a part of their job should be wisely spending Canadians money. Did the Liberals do a good job of it, NO. but I think it is fair to say one persons extravagent spending of anothers money is not justification for other people to do it, even if it is slightly less extravegant. It is instead justification to ask people to be more responsible.

They could have rented a kayak from MEC and paddled over too, but one day practicallity and common business practice will enter the minds of those so quick to condemn these people. Liberal or CPC, I have no problem with executives taking completely comparable luxuries in their trips to those in the private sector.

We're not talking a great deal of money in the big picture. But it does a great deal in maintaining that we have the most qualified people around. If you treat MP's and Ministers like crap, most will leave and we'll be left with more incompetent hacks than qualified leaders. Emerson is one of the most qualified ministers we have had in a long time.

People complain about a lot of things in government that would be perfectly acceptable in the business world. What was out of step here is that Harper was elected on promises of spending wisely and flying to Vancouver with his 120-seater jet to reiterate (for the 10th time) a promise that a plan on the environment will be coming in the near future seemed rather pathetic.

Oh well. Certainly you don't expect the PM to drive to Vancouver do you?

I'm not sure what the security rules are, but I doubt if he's allowed to fly Air Canada Tango without security and with only carry on... but hey, who knows? Whatever you need to do to save a very minor chunk of change in the big picture.

Slavik44 · December 31, 2006

They could have rented a kayak from MEC and paddled over too, but one day practicallity and common business practice will enter the minds of those so quick to condemn these people. Liberal or CPC, I have no problem with executives taking completely comparable luxuries in their trips to those in the private sector.
We're not talking a great deal of money in the big picture. But it does a great deal in maintaining that we have the most qualified people around. If you treat MP's and Ministers like crap, most will leave and we'll be left with more incompetent hacks than qualified leaders. Emerson is one of the most qualified ministers we have had in a long time.

Can you point to me where I suggested they take a Kayak? And at the very least is it wrong to ask ministers spending the money of Canadian taxpayers to account for there expendatures? Can Emerson truly justify that the $10,000 was neccessary? I am not going to say thats it he loses his job, or spend the rest of my days on an anti-Emerson Campaign. Nor am I opposed to MP's partaking in some luxuries. But if we need to allow MP"s executive style luxuries, can we also not ask these executives to report to the board, the Canadian electorate. Why suddenly am I in the wrong, for wanting someone who derives their power and position from me, to report to me. That would be a fundemental flaw in Canadian politics if we say that MP's are above requests from the electorate. Perhaps a foundation for Ottawa's culture of entitlement arises from the fact that we do not want to keep a check on the spending habbits of our "executives." Maybe the sponsorship Scandal is just another luxury that is taken with tax payer money. If Emerson wants his luxuries fine I am not opposed to Emerson wanting to arrive in Switzerland well rested and well prepared, if that includes certain luxuries so be it. But Can we then ask for such things to be accounted for? Is that wrong? Is it treating MP"s like Crap to ask them to be accountable to the Canadian Electorate? If that is the case then we as a country are in a very sorry state.

Saturn · December 31, 2006

People complain about a lot of things in government that would be perfectly acceptable in the business world. What was out of step here is that Harper was elected on promises of spending wisely and flying to Vancouver with his 120-seater jet to reiterate (for the 10th time) a promise that a plan on the environment will be coming in the near future seemed rather pathetic.

Oh well. Certainly you don't expect the PM to drive to Vancouver do you?

I certainly expect the PM to be able to make an announcement (that the environment minister will be making an announcement the following week which everyone knew about already) from Ottawa without flying OR driving to Vancouver. In fact, I expect the PM not to make such announcements of announcements in the first place.

madmax · December 31, 2006

I certainly expect the PM to be able to make an announcement (that the environment minister will be making an announcement the following week which everyone knew about already) from Ottawa without flying OR driving to Vancouver. In fact, I expect the PM not to make such announcements of announcements in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with a PM spending money for a photo op. Sure it was a waste of money, sure it was a failure as far a photo op goes. But it could have been worse. He could have announced the environment policy with a banner behind him. "Mission Accomplished".

Ricki Bobbi · December 31, 2006

I certainly expect the PM to be able to make an announcement (that the environment minister will be making an announcement the following week which everyone knew about already) from Ottawa without flying OR driving to Vancouver. In fact, I expect the PM not to make such announcements of announcements in the first place.

So once elected the Prime Minister should never visit any region of Canada outside Ottawa unless it reaches the *Saturn-approved* level of taking a trip?

Do lay out what you consider worthy of Prime Ministerial travel? Not what you *don't* approve, because that just gives you more of an opening for attack.

Argus · December 31, 2006

Argus, you conservative types criticized the Liberals over all things just because they were Liberals

No, I did not. I'm not an ideologue. In fact, I had some hope for Chretien at first. I liked some of what he had to say. It all turned out to be lies. That's why I turned on him. I liked Martin at first, too, impressed by his cost cutting. But then he showed his true colours and I learned to despise him, as well. It is actions which govern my like or dislike of a politician and party, not my own ideology. I would say, above all, above the corruption and dishonesty, my main problem with the Liberals has been and remains that in any contest between what is best for the Liberal Party, and what is best for Canada - well, it's no contest. It has seemed to me for some time that they were willing to damage this country if they thought it might improve their electoral or economic fortunes. They didn't care what was right for Canada, only what was right for them.

The bookends to this were the start of the Liberal government, when, for purely electoral reasons, Chretien targeted the Eh101 contract, canceling helicopters we needed - at huge expense - and then spreading the money around in a multi-billion dollar pork barrel spree for blonde joke books, canoe museums, and golf course refurbishment. Then the finish of the Liberals, when Paul Martin deliberately instigated a campaign of anti-Americanism and Bush-bashing in hopes of tarring the Conservatives with the Bush brush. He didn't care what damage this might do to our relationship with our most important trade and economic partner, or what that might cost Canada afterwards. He only cared about himself. This has been an ongoing theme with the Liberals for most of my life. That is why I don't support them.

It is not ideology or partisanship, but disgust at their venal, self-serving ways.

There is much about the current Conservative leadership and party I don't really approve of or support. I'm mindful, however, that it's hard to judge performance given their minority situation, and that the alternative is quite simply no alternative. The Liberals have given no indication they intend to change their ways. I see no sign of emerging interest in the welfare of the country as opposed to the welfare of themselves, no grand vision, no infusion of integrity or honesty. And so, when those of you who have supported these people throughout all that, through the corruption, the lies, the deceit and arrogance, and who still support them attack the Tories for piddling little errors of no real importance it simply brings to light, for me, your lack of awareness, of knowledge, of political sophistication - or basic stupidity.

Figleaf · December 31, 2006

You get back to us when the Tories are flying to the Bahamas on pointless "fact finding" expeditions which take two weeks in the middle of winter - as the Liberals were notorious for doing.

Harper haters will always hate Harper.

How deeply troubling! Maybe Harper should extend them some gesture and see if they would change their views.

Argus · December 31, 2006

jbg, what the h do you know about it? More concern with the common man? Like cancelling literacy programs, women's programs, childcare program funding,

The Conservatives did not cancel literacy programs that actually helped literacy. They cancelled a program which did not directly help anyone, but which merely lobbied on behalf of literacy. Likewise, they cancelled no womens' program, but local chapters of a government group which lobbied on behalf of womens' programs. They also replaced one half-assed so-called child care program which gave money to provincial governments to use as they chose with direct handouts to parents - something they had campaigned on.

Ricki Bobbi · December 31, 2006

Argus, you conservative types criticized the Liberals over all things just because they were Liberals

No, I did not. I'm not an ideologue. In fact, I had some hope for Chretien at first. I liked some of what he had to say. I

It is not ideology or partisanship, but disgust at their venal, self-serving ways.

There is much about the current Conservative leadership and party I don't really approve of or support. I'm mindful, however, that it's hard to judge performance given their minority situation, and that the alternative is quite simply no alternative. The Liberals have given no indication they intend to change their ways. I see no sign of emerging interest in the welfare of the country as opposed to the welfare of themselves, no grand vision, no infusion of integrity or honesty. And so, when those of you who have supported these people throughout all that, through the corruption, the lies, the deceit and arrogance, and who still support them attack the Tories for piddling little errors of no real importance it simply brings to light, for me, your lack of awareness, of knowledge, of political sophistication - or basic stupidity.

Argus, I personally thought Chretien did a good job for the most part in his first term. After that things got bad.

The EH-101 contract, right or wrong, was a campaign promise made by Chretien. I have no problem with him cancelling the contract because it was a promise he made. We all knew it was going to cost a lot to cancel, but at least it was out there before he took office.

I don't support the Conservatives 100% in everything they do. For example, I think the 1/2 point increase in the lowest tax bracket was bad policy. I believe Flaherty will correct this mistake in the next budget.

I hear the issues people have with Harper being a control freak. But he became so for good reason. The Conservatives lost the 2004 election because they weren't disciplined enough. If it hadn't been for Randy White's comment on judges, Cheryl Gallant's ridiculous analogy on abortion and that terrible press release from the war room saying that Paul Martin was weak on child pornography I believe the Conservatives would have won that election.

In 2006 Harper tightened his control and look at the results. There were no dumb*ss comments from Conservative candidates in the last election and he squeaked out a win. Other than Peter MacKay there haven't been any major uproars about dumb*ss Conservative MP comments. I tend to believe Harper was letting MacKay hang on his own petard with that one.

I absolutely agree about the disgust at the Liberals. The arrogance amazed me. Same level of arrogance I witnessed at the end of Mulroney's second term.

The Liberals haven't changed. I think it would take another good stretch in the political wilderness for that to happen. The only way I see that taking place is a majority win by the Conservatives. Smart, introspective, Liberals should be scared by Harper. He took over the Alliance when it wasn't much of a job to win. Merged the two parties. And brought down Martin in a little over two years. After 11 years of the right in the wilderness before that he pulled off a truly amazing job. But how many truly introspective Liberals are there out there.

Harper's Government hasn't been perfect. But it has been competent and is holding itself up to a much higher ethical standard than anything Chretien post 1997 or Martin ever approached. For that reason they will continue to get my support...

Saturn · December 31, 2006

Argus, you conservative types criticized the Liberals over all things just because they were Liberals

No, I did not. I'm not an ideologue.

Come on, Argus, you are one of the biggest ideologues I've seen around. You wouldn't recognize it if the Conservatives robbed you blind. Screaming about Liberal waste and excusing Conservative waste is certainly not based on logic.

Ricki Bobbi · December 31, 2006

Come on, Argus, you are one of the biggest ideologues I've seen around. You wouldn't recognize it if the Conservatives robbed you blind. Screaming about Liberal waste and excusing Conservative waste is certainly not based on logic.

Saturn, you are accusing somebody else of being an ideologue?

I have seen Argus criticize the Conservatives.

I have never seen you say anything good about the Conservatives. You always attack them.

Live From China · December 31, 2006

I think the real point is that excessive spending is excessive spending. And this is even worse when nothing is really accomplished. It doesn't matter if it is the Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, Rhinos or the Skateboard Party of Canada. It is time it stopped. No one needs to spend $5000 on an airline ticket when a $1500 one is available. And they don't need to bring along their secretary, assistant to the secretary, etc. And staying in seventeen-star hotels.

I am sure if government officials didn't attend the conference in Geneva, it would have had a negative impact on Canada.

One of these days a PM will say, "When I was in the Opposition, I criticized So-and-so for this! We are not going to turn around and do the same thing!" Then again, I am probably just living in a fantasy world :blink:

Saturn · December 31, 2006

I certainly expect the PM to be able to make an announcement (that the environment minister will be making an announcement the following week which everyone knew about already) from Ottawa without flying OR driving to Vancouver. In fact, I expect the PM not to make such announcements of announcements in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with a PM spending money for a photo op. Sure it was a waste of money, sure it was a failure as far a photo op goes. But it could have been worse. He could have announced the environment policy with a banner behind him. "Mission Accomplished".

And he could have done it from his own back yard. I have to say that with all the hype about the PM going all the way to Vancouver to make an announcement on the environment, I expected some meat and was very eager to hear it - was online and ready for the announcement. Man, was I PO'd! What kind of an idiotic photo op was that? I thought of him worse as a result of it than I did before that. Many I know felt the same way. He sure exceeded my expectations on how full of hot air he was.

Saturn · December 31, 2006

Come on, Argus, you are one of the biggest ideologues I've seen around. You wouldn't recognize it if the Conservatives robbed you blind. Screaming about Liberal waste and excusing Conservative waste is certainly not based on logic.

Saturn, you are accusing somebody else of being an ideologue?

I have seen Argus criticize the Conservatives.

I have never seen you say anything good about the Conservatives. You always attack them.

I've seen them do only one reasonable thing and I wasn't around at the time to praise them for it. The rest of the time they take some reasonable steps which are preceded by so much hype and so much exaggeration that when delivered they look so pathetic and fall so short of expectations that they are nothing but a disappointment. Overall, the CPC acts the same as the old Libs and their big claims are nothing but hot air and hypocrisy. I have nothing good to say about that.