Tory Crime Bills

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061226/...r_law_and_order

I'm not even sure the Tories want all of them passed. They just want to use the issue in the next election.

[geoffrey]

I still like how the media calls them the 3 national parties when none of them are truly national.

--

Anyways, why are you suggesting the Tories are holding them up. Isn't it obvious that the other parties are at fault here?

[madmax]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061226/...r_law_and_order

I'm not even sure the Tories want all of them passed. They just want to use the issue in the next election.

The Crime bills have Merits that all three parties should support. The Crime Bills also have flaws that would come to light afterwards if they were passed as written. These bills require scrutiny to be effective in the long run.

Yeah, I think the CPC is playing politics with this one.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Just this one? How about SSM? Or the environment?

[Figleaf]

Just this one? How about SSM? Or the environment?

Or the middle east, or the senate, or Quebec nationalism, or the wheat board.

[jdobbin]

I still like how the media calls them the 3 national parties when none of them are truly national.

--

Anyways, why are you suggesting the Tories are holding them up. Isn't it obvious that the other parties are at fault here?

The Conservatives had accused the Liberals of the same thing when they tried to push through so many pieces of legislation. Harper said that given the time before the next election, the Liberals knew that not everything was going to make it through. He also said that he wasn't elected to support the entire legislative agenda of the Liberal government without going over every bill thoroughly. He added he thought the Liberals were putting that much stuff through to use against the Conservatives in the election.

It didn't work. It just made the Liberals look incompetent for not getting key legislation passed.

[Argus]

The Liberals, BQ and NDP are all part of the hug-a-thug crowd. Conservatives see a child rapist and want to castrate him, or at least ,put him in prison forever. The left sees a child rapist and they want to "help" him. They ooze sympathy for his unhappy childhood, his parents failed marriage, his poverty and lack of education. They are aghast at the thought of locking him away for long periods of time.

It's all about personal responsibiilty. Conservatives believe in it, the left does not. To people in the BQ and NDP all criminals are victims, in some way, of societal neglect, and so whatever they do, well, it's society's fault. And if society just pours out sympathy and understanding and money (of course) the criminal will realize the error of his ways and reform. That this has never happened is irrelevent.

As for Liberals - Liberals don't care about criminals or crime or victims. Nothing is really very important to the Liberal Party except their own lust for power.

It is no coincidence that criminals in prison don't vote Conservative. They tend to vote for the left wing parties as their "protectors", dedicated to keeping harsh punishment off the books and freeing criminals as rapidly as possible.

I remember the last time there was a major incident in TO the media pointed out there were something like two hundred registered sex offenders living within a few blocks. They're out there because the left put them there and keeps them there.

[jdobbin]

It is no coincidence that criminals in prison don't vote Conservative. They tend to vote for the left wing parties as their "protectors", dedicated to keeping harsh punishment off the books and freeing criminals as rapidly as possible.

I can't recall seeing the breakdown of the prison vote since they usually vote (if they vote) in the constituency where they lived prior to being in custody.

However, I do remember that a lot of the prisoners asked in the last election (A Winnipeg Free Press straw poll), voted for various parties. Some were against abortion and voted Conservative. Some voted NDP because they they believed they were oppressed. Others voted Liberal because of the Kelowna accord. It was a fairly wide spectrum.

If the Conservatives truly believed in law and order, they wouldn't have picked Vic Toews. He kept Manitoba's Crown prosecutions office ill staffed and ill managed the entire time he was in office. Now federal Crown prosecutors are ill staffed and managed. Appointments to the court remain unfilled for a very long time and they are still short staffed. Much of the legislation the Justice minister has proposed is ill thought out and requires work in committee.

However, the Conservatives aren't interested in all of this as they just want to hammer the Liberals on law and order. It is the Conservatives though that are mismanaging the department. That area doesn't rely on Parliament. It relies on a competent Justice minister and they don't have one right now.

[hiti]

The gun-related homicide rate in the country's biggest city Toronto is down 40 per cent this year largely thanks to a concerted campaign against street gangs. More police on the streets with better enforcement of current statutes, without Parliament doing a thing. The credit goes to the police, not the laws. It's got nothing to do with MPs.

If someone is intent on killing someone else, it won't matter to him/her if they get 10, 15, or 25 years in prison. They will still do the crime. And the Tories are pushing for longer sentences as a magic bullet to stop crime. How wrong-headed is that?

Plus their three strike law is stalled. Mainly because it has been proven in the USA that three-strikes does not work and does not lower the crime rate. The Opposition are not going to let fools clog up the justice system with laws that would mean millions spent on more prisons, housing more criminals without lowering the crime rate.

Better use of that money is more funding for front-line policing. Or boost funding for social programs that aim to keep disadvantaged kids in school or offer them job training, thus keeping them from turning to crime.

If Steve is clogging up the justice committee with more crimes bills in hopes of building a wedge issue, it wouldn't be hard to dispute his politics with real statistics and policy.

[Curiouscanuck]

If someone is intent on killing someone else, it won't matter to him/her if they get 10, 15, or 25 years in prison. They will still do the crime. And the Tories are pushing for longer sentences as a magic bullet to stop crime. How wrong-headed is that?

Plus their three strike law is stalled. Mainly because it has been proven in the USA that three-strikes does not work and does not lower the crime rate. The Opposition are not going to let fools clog up the justice system with laws that would mean millions spent on more prisons, housing more criminals without lowering the crime rate.

Based on this logic. Why have prisons/punishment at all? And do you believe having criminals roam the streets is costless?

[hiti]

If someone is intent on killing someone else, it won't matter to him/her if they get 10, 15, or 25 years in prison. They will still do the crime. And the Tories are pushing for longer sentences as a magic bullet to stop crime. How wrong-headed is that?

Plus their three strike law is stalled. Mainly because it has been proven in the USA that three-strikes does not work and does not lower the crime rate. The Opposition are not going to let fools clog up the justice system with laws that would mean millions spent on more prisons, housing more criminals without lowering the crime rate.

Based on this logic. Why have prisons/punishment at all? And do you believe having criminals roam the streets is costless?

That is not a solution either.

I believe early childhood development and education is one of the main answers. Not doubling the sentence or locking up a thief for life when he steals his 3rd car.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It makes no difference which partisan faction takes power, once installed in power they use any and all means to retain that authority. The day to day issues get the call of the ball and party platform policies get worked into the mix. They all lay claim to the support of the majority, and pretend to have the backing of the masses its only on election day that the public has a voice.

[jdobbin]

It makes no difference which partisan faction takes power, once installed in power they use any and all means to retain that authority. The day to day issues get the call of the ball and party platform policies get worked into the mix. They all lay claim to the support of the majority, and pretend to have the backing of the masses its only on election day that the public has a voice.

True. All humans are evil. We need the computer to run all of Canada.

[Curiouscanuck]

That is not a solution either.

I believe early childhood development and education is one of the main answers. Not doubling the sentence or locking up a thief for life when he steals his 3rd car.

You're not answering the first question and you are defenitly not answering the second.

Try this one.

What would you do if a man educated with a Ph D. and had a good childhood committed a crime? Also what if a 35 year old tramp with no education and a horrible childhood committed a crime?...

Both have already gone through early childhood and one is very well educated.

What would you do with these people?

[Wilber]

I believe early childhood development and education is one of the main answers. Not doubling the sentence or locking up a thief for life when he steals his 3rd car.

The proposed law is directed at violent offenders not petty thieves. Keeping proven dangerous people off the streets. Right now people who have stolen thirty cars rarely had more than a nominal prison sentence if any at all. Teaching them that there are few if any consequences for their actions and that crime pays is not what I call early childhood development and is absolutely the wrong kind of education.

[hiti]

That is not a solution either.

I believe early childhood development and education is one of the main answers. Not doubling the sentence or locking up a thief for life when he steals his 3rd car.

You're not answering the first question and you are defenitly not answering the second.

Try this one.

What would you do if a man educated with a Ph D. and had a good childhood committed a crime? Also what if a 35 year old tramp with no education and a horrible childhood committed a crime?...

Both have already gone through early childhood and one is very well educated.

What would you do with these people?

They should both be treated the same, educated or no.

I believe early childhood development and education is one of the main answers. Not doubling the sentence or locking up a thief for life when he steals his 3rd car.

The proposed law is directed at violent offenders not petty thieves. Keeping proven dangerous people off the streets. Right now people who have stolen thirty cars rarely had more than a nominal prison sentence if any at all. Teaching them that there are few if any consequences for their actions and that crime pays is not what I call early childhood development and is absolutely the wrong kind of education.

How come then thieves were also on the list of violent offenders?

So don't twist early childhood development to be training for crime pays or few consequences.

Can you tell us the name of the person who has stolen 30 cars and received hardly any sentence at all?

[Riverwind]

Can you tell us the name of the person who has stolen 30 cars and received hardly any sentence at all?

Examples appear in the Vancouver paper all of the time. The courts are notoriously lax when it comes to property thefts. However, I agree that 3 strikes laws should not be applied to property theft because there is a difference between a car thief and a rapist. That said, graduated laws would make a lot of sense:

The following would get you put in jail for life with no chance of parole:

10 property crimes;

5 crimes involving violance

3 crimes caused injury or death of any sort (including man slaughter and rape).

1 murder

[Wilber]

Can you tell us the name of the person who has stolen 30 cars and received hardly any sentence at all?

A while back there was a 13 year old girl in this area that the police were catching with a stolen car every second week. Because of her age nothing could be done and she knew it. What kind of education is that? Of course, also because of her age, her name cannot be released.

[Argus]

It is no coincidence that criminals in prison don't vote Conservative. They tend to vote for the left wing parties as their "protectors", dedicated to keeping harsh punishment off the books and freeing criminals as rapidly as possible.

I can't recall seeing the breakdown of the prison vote since they usually vote (if they vote) in the constituency where they lived prior to being in custody.

Advance polls opened across the country Friday, including at the Stony Mountain Institution, north of Winnipeg, where inmates cast their ballots in the federal election.

Many inmates said they had a strong interest in the parties' crime and justice platforms. Not surprisingly, the Conservative platform is not popular.

Fellow inmate Jeff Power had a red "L" for "Liberal" painted on the side of his head. He was jailed for drug trafficking and robbing two pharmacies.

He said he would not vote for the Conservatives because they've talked about tightening up parole rules.

Power said there's another reason he cannot vote Conservative: party leader Stephen Harper has said he would strip prisoners of the right to vote by using the notwithstanding clause in the Constitution.

Power said that's just one more way of isolating inmates, and it would make it even more difficult for them to integrate back into society once they're released from prison.

In 2002, the Supreme Court struck down an earlier law that denied inmates the right to vote, ending an 18-year battle over the issue. Inmates have a choice voting for candidates in the riding they lived in before they were arrested, or the riding in which they were convicted.

[jdobbin]

Advance polls opened across the country Friday, including at the Stony Mountain Institution, north of Winnipeg, where inmates cast their ballots in the federal election.

As I said, I've never seen a breakdown of the prison vote.

As for your information, it is not a citation.

The only thing I ever recalled was the straw poll done and it had all three parties mentioned. I suspect that some of the Quebec prison vote went Bloq.

[Wilber]

The latest locally.

A lowlife's car was shot up the other night. The chief suspect is another lowlife who was recently arrested for the possession of a bullet proof vest and a 45 cal. handgun then released after paying a $250 fine. I guess he must of convinced the judge that he needed them for his own protection.

[hiti]

Can you tell us the name of the person who has stolen 30 cars and received hardly any sentence at all?

A while back there was a 13 year old girl in this area that the police were catching with a stolen car every second week. Because of her age nothing could be done and she knew it. What kind of education is that? Of course, also because of her age, her name cannot be released.

I heard that story only it was an 8 year old boy.

Nobody has been offering viable solutions but rather narrow-mindedly only seeing tougher sentencing as the only solution. News Link

[Wilber]

I heard that story only it was an 8 year old boy.

Nobody has been offering viable solutions but rather narrow-mindedly only seeing tougher sentencing as the only solution

Not the same story, this one was first hand from a local police officer who had personally seen this kid more than once. If you have heard the same story it is because this is not an isolated incident.

You don't have to put them in jail and throw away the key (I agree that would be a bad idea) but you do need to inconvenience the little rats. Make them spend the next three months weekends picking up garbage for eight hours a day then spend their leisure time in a closed room with nothing to do but watch Lawrence Welk reruns on a TV they can't access. Anything they won't want to do again.

Just telling them that what they did is wrong and not to do it again with no consequences is a waist of time. Not only is it a waist of time but it will leave them with absolutely no respect for you or your rules.