Toronto judge has banished a Christmas tree

[Black Dog]

The doctrine of separation of church and state is an American one.

No: the constitutionally mandated separation of church and state is American. The general idea, though, was derived from the secular principles of the Enlightenment, of which the U.S. Founding Fathers were the intellectual heirs.

How is recognizing the fact that most Canadians celebrate Christmas basing policy on a certain religion?

I never said it was. But then that also depends on what you mean by "recognizing the fact that most Canadians celebrate Christmas." Thus, I don't have a problem with Christmas trees in public buildings, since they are not an overtly religious symbol. I would have a problem with an overtly religious symbol like a nativity scene, for example.

The Christmas celebrations of most Canadians aren't based in the Christian religion.

How is anybody hurt by a Christmas tree in a courthouse?

I agree and, to answer the question, nobody. All I'm saying is separation of church and state is a good thing. This Christmas tree business is not an example of that principle in action, though, but petty p.c. politics.

[mikedavid00]

I wonder if there is really separation of state in Canada, in the constitutional sense.

1. The hereditary head of state of Canada, the monarch of England, is also de facto head of a christian religion.

2. the 1982 Charter of Rights clearly states that Canada recognizes the "supremacy of God".

Could somebody ask Stéphane Dion for me?

There is a seperation from church and stae.

But there is NOT a sepeation of religious VALUES and state anywhere in world.

And there is nothing wrong with religious values.

Shariah law is direct church entering into state.

A christmas tree is ultimately a religious symbol, but if you ban that, you are banning all christams carols, ribons at the dollars store, and anything that has to do with teh 'holiday season'.

[normanchateau]

And there is nothing wrong with religious values.

There is nothing wrong with some religious values.

[Argus]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/200...stmas-tree.html

"A Toronto judge has banished a Christmas tree from the lobby of a provincial courthouse, saying the "Christian symbol" might alienate people of other faiths."

Here we go again with judges deciding our fate. This has got to stop.

Isn't it time to give the gov't back the people?

I was not aware, you are a christmas tree?

Oh the old War on Christmas myth has now been started again for another month. Call O'Reilly @ Fox, he needs new stories to keep this myth going.

Are you suggesting that the Christmas tree was NOT removed in order to not offend immigrants?

[Argus]

That's the first smart thing I heard him say.

The PM should have the power to unappoint judges, there are too many that are running around our country on a power trip, perhaps if they could get canned then it would bring some accountability to that part of the justice system

Wouldn't it be easier to tell the judge to take a hike? If she is offended by the X-mas tree, she can sue. I don't like the stupid paintings on the walls at work but it's not up to me to take them off the wall and put them in the janitor's room.

It is, for all intents and purposes, not possible to discipline judges in Canada except for something of truly monumental stupidity. And even then it's almost impossible.

[Argus]

The poor Toronto judge is about to discover that Canada has no shortage of Christian cry babies.

Poor judge? Annoying moron is more like it. If she is offended by Christmas trees, others may be offended by seeing the star of david in public places. Let's get rid of both or get the judge have her head checked. I'm not Christian and I quite like Christmas trees. Ya, get her to have her head checked.

I'm not a Christian either but at least I know a Christmas tree has as much to with Christianity as Santa Claus and Rudolph. What are the educational requirements to be a judge these days.

There are none. Apparently you just need to suck up a lot to politicians. Offering up free legal services - under the table - illegally - to political campaigns in Quebec works too.

[Argus]

A Christmas tree isn't even a Christian symbol. It's a pagan one.

I am Jewish and I can not imagine a Christmas display or tree being offensive. The only thing offensive about Christians is when they try put mayonaisse on bagels.

I don't think Christian trees in government buildings are offensive, merely a failure to separate church and state. At least mayo on bagels doesn't mix church and state. And it's not as offensive as mayo on matzoh. Pheh!

I am not aware of there ever being anything in law, in Canada, relating to the separation of church and state.

[Argus]

Do explain...

It is a democratic principle to be anti-religion?

No: it's a democratic principle to seperate religion from the workings of the state.

So the United Kingdom is not a democracy?

[Wilber]

I was listening to the leader of a Canadian Muslim organization on the radio. Among other things he said.

1. He was originally from Pakistan and Christmas trees were common there. It was a good time enjoyed by all, not just Christians.

2. Anyone who is offended by someone else's happiness (this judge included) needs to see a shrink.

3. The idea that the politically correct (this judge included) feel that they are in a position to dictate what offends him, is pure arrogance.

[mikedavid00]

And there is nothing wrong with religious values.

There is nothing wrong with some religious values.

Hehehe..

I meant to say that there is nothing wrong with someone believing in his own religious values.

I feel that Islam has the ability to be detremental to our society if followed by rule.

There is no other gov't recognized religoin like this in Canada except Islam. We must watch our society and keep it to what we would like it to be.

[mikedavid00]

Are you suggesting that the Christmas tree was NOT removed in order to not offend immigrants?

A pakistani muslim called out newstalk 1010 today.

He said that he feels that it's very good the tree was removed.

Then he won the draw for a $200 LCBO basket (Basically a basket of wine and alchohol that he won't be able to accept).

I guess someone should sue newstalk 1010 because they are discriminating against Muslims that they can't take part in the prise and that it's discrimitory.

Aww come one.. i'm sure there's a Canadian judge that would rule in favor of the mulsim.

[geoffrey]

[it is, for all intents and purposes, not possible to discipline judges in Canada except for something of truly monumental stupidity.

This letter to the Vancouver Sun ought make her think twice next year:

""" I am appalled that Justice Marion Cohen ordered the removal of a Christmas tree from the lobby of the Ontario Court of Justice in Toronto because it might offend non-Christians. I hope she is planning to show up for work on Dec. 25. It would be inappropriate for her to stay at home on this Christian holiday. The non-Christian employees would be confronted with an empty building, and might not feel "they are part of the institution." """

It's true. Anyone that complains about Christmas being shoved down their throat should go to work paid normally on the 25th.

[Wilber]

In the spirit of separating state and religion, the statutory holidays of Christmas, Boxing Day, Good Friday and Thanksgiving, as well as Easter Monday and Saint Jean-Baptiste Day in Quebec, must immediately be removed from the calender. In the spirit of never offending anyone for any reason, government participation in any events that might prove offensive to parts of our society such as Santa Clause and Gay Pride parades shall immediately cease. As the courts have declared that trees are Christians, all trees on government property must immediately be destroyed.

[Wilber]

Further more, also in the spirit of separating state and religion, there will be no more references to God, hymns or prayers at Remembrance Day ceremonies. All references to and symbols of religion (crosses, Stars of David etc) will be removed from all government cemeteries including Canadian war cemeteries.