Are the Liberals the new NDP?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Nationalized Daycare, support for a draconian, economically dibilitating Kyoto Protocol, Anti-Afghanistan (isn't Dion?), Reducing the age of consent for anal sex to 14....

Don't these things sound more like NDP style politics?

But they aren't, they're Liberal ones.

As I said in another post:

Regardless of what happens in the next election, Dion is i trouble longer term by marrying himself and the Libs to Kyoto, climate change, anti-war and other short-sighted feel good policies normally reserved for the NDP.

The Liberals are so intent on demonizing Stephen Harper as a cold-hearted right wing zealot, they've painted themselvs into an NDP corner by default.

Will the country go for this? This type of feel good socialism usually plays well in hard times, but times are amazingly good right now in this country, perhaps the best ever?

My theory: These expensive feel good left wing ideas will play well in the traditional heartland of BS academic government pork: Toronto, Vancouver, maybe Montreal. But will the ROC go for it? No. We could be in for minorty governments for awhile.

And this could be a very good thing: isn't it refreshing to see politicians suck up to us full time, instad of just during elections?

Thoughts please.

[uOttawaMan]

Ahh the good old DP. The "N" is pointless now.

[watching&waiting]

The flaw in your theory is that the Liberals never do the things that they say they will do anyway, so you must remember that they view election promises and policy and what they will reall do, as two totally different enities.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The flaw in your theory is that the Liberals never do the things that they say they will do anyway, so you must remember that they view election promises and policy and what they will reall do, as two totally different enities.

Yes - "campaign from the left, govern from the right"

The Liberals understand something about Canadians that the other parties miss out on:

The Canadian electorate is VERY concerned with perception over reality.

Consider health care. Our health care system is ranked I think #38 in the world? Walking into any Montreal emergency room (or any one in Canada) will tell the tale about how decrepit our health care system REALLY is. Yet we wear our health care system like a badg of honour. As Canadians, we adore the PERCEPTION that we have an enviable health care system.

Another example is "peacekeeping". We have peacekeepers (without guns haha) on our CURRENCY. Yet I believe we slot somewhere between turkey and croatia for the number of peacekeepers we contribute to the UN. And well below the USA. Yet we adore the PERCEPTION (or rather SELF perception) that Canada is a leader in peacekeeping.

The Liberals understand this and play off of it very well. They have done a great marketing job of adopting the "natinoal identity" and claiming all of their "values" as the "value of Canadians". Watch the next election: the Liberals will consistently use the term "Canadian Values".

[jdobbin]

The Liberals understand this and play off of it very well. They have done a great marketing job of adopting the "natinoal identity" and claiming all of their "values" as the "value of Canadians". Watch the next election: the Liberals will consistently use the term "Canadian Values".

The Conservative website:

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2590/

"Today in Oakville, Ontario Stephen Harper today released Stand up for Canada, the Conservative Party’s election platform, emphasizing that it is based on the values that he and all Canadians share.

The platform is based on the values of integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada.

“These are the values in which our plan is rooted,�? said Mr. Harper. “Values which matter to me, values which I believe matter to all Canadians, values which have endured and will endure.�?"

[g_bambino]

The Liberals understand this and play off of it very well. They have done a great marketing job of adopting the "natinoal identity" and claiming all of their "values" as the "value of Canadians". Watch the next election: the Liberals will consistently use the term "Canadian Values".

The Conservative website:

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2590/

"Today in Oakville, Ontario Stephen Harper today released Stand up for Canada, the Conservative Party’s election platform, emphasizing that it is based on the values that he and all Canadians share.

The platform is based on the values of integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada.

“These are the values in which our plan is rooted,�? said Mr. Harper. “Values which matter to me, values which I believe matter to all Canadians, values which have endured and will endure.�?"

The key difference here seems to be that at least the Conservatives actually spelled out what they consider values held by Canadians to be. And really, I think the Liberals would have a hard time arguing that "integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada" aren't values held by Canadians, as opposed to the Liberal allusions that to be a real Canadian one must solely embrace the doctorines of one Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and believe in ill-defined things like multiculturalism and federalism.

[jdobbin]

The key difference here seems to be that at least the Conservatives actually spelled out what they consider values held by Canadians to be. And really, I think the Liberals would have a hard time arguing that "integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada" aren't values held by Canadians, as opposed to the Liberal allusions that to be a real Canadian one must solely embrace the doctorines of one Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and believe in ill-defined things like multiculturalism and federalism.

Hmm, I thought federalism was well defined by the Liberals. Probably why they've been in power the last 80 of 120 years and the Conservatives who don't believe in federalism haven't.

As far as multicultural, perhaps you'll ask why he was opposed to Vietnamese boat people while he was head of the NCC but now will be letting them come to Canada. Perhaps, it is because he believes in multiculturalism?

[g_bambino]

The key difference here seems to be that at least the Conservatives actually spelled out what they consider values held by Canadians to be. And really, I think the Liberals would have a hard time arguing that "integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada" aren't values held by Canadians, as opposed to the Liberal allusions that to be a real Canadian one must solely embrace the doctorines of one Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and believe in ill-defined things like multiculturalism and federalism.

Hmm, I thought federalism was well defined by the Liberals. Probably why they've been in power the last 80 of 120 years and the Conservatives who don't believe in federalism haven't.

As far as multicultural, perhaps you'll ask why he was opposed to Vietnamese boat people while he was head of the NCC but now will be letting them come to Canada. Perhaps, it is because he believes in multiculturalism?

I don't think federalism is a "value" to believe in, it is a type of governmental structure. Ours is laid out in the Constitution Act (ex BNA), and it is acutally quite loosely built. This makes it flexible, and anything flexible can't be easily pinned down. Just because the Conservatives currently have a different take on that structure than the Liberals do doesn't mean they don't believe in it at all.

I'm also not going to venture into who thought what about multiculturalism and Vietnamese people - my point remains that multiculturalism again isn't a "value", but a social concept that lacks singular definition.

Sure, what defines integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada varies from person to person, but at least they are values, and not flimsy official government programmes that we're told we must embrace as our guiding principals to be truly patriotic.

[jdobbin]

I don't think federalism is a "value" to believe in, it is a type of governmental structure. Ours is laid out in the Constitution Act (ex BNA), and it is acutally quite loosely built. This makes it flexible, and anything flexible can't be easily pinned down. Just because the Conservatives currently have a different take on that structure than the Liberals do doesn't mean they don't believe in it at all.

I'm also not going to venture into who thought what about multiculturalism and Vietnamese people - my point remains that multiculturalism again isn't a "value", but a social concept that lacks singular definition.

Sure, what defines integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada varies from person to person, but at least they are values, and not flimsy official government programmes that we're told we must embrace as our guiding principals to be truly patriotic.

Different views, different values.

You say tomato, I say..well, you get the idea.

You say federalism and multiculturalism are not values. Many would disagree.

[bk59]

The Liberals understand this and play off of it very well. They have done a great marketing job of adopting the "natinoal identity" and claiming all of their "values" as the "value of Canadians". Watch the next election: the Liberals will consistently use the term "Canadian Values".

Jerry's quote applies to every single Canadian political party out there. Every single one of them claim to be the only party upholding Canadian values.

And really, I think the Liberals would have a hard time arguing that "integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada" aren't values held by Canadians, as opposed to the Liberal allusions that to be a real Canadian one must solely embrace the doctorines of one Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and believe in ill-defined things like multiculturalism and federalism.

It's not that the Liberals claim these are not Canadian values, it's that they claim they are the only party that will support these values. Just like the Conservatives. Just like everyone else.

Any time a political party starts talking about values I start to tune out. It's all hot air. Politicians just trying to get the electorate all riled up. I prefer to look at the promised policies and then decide if they accord with my values. Whether or not I think those policies will ever be implemented also factors into the decision.

The fact is, Canadians hold a range of values. And every party represents those values to a degree. If they didn't, then the party wouldn't exist. But no party will ever say that because it doesn't play well. It's too honest.

[g_bambino]

And really, I think the Liberals would have a hard time arguing that "integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada" aren't values held by Canadians, as opposed to the Liberal allusions that to be a real Canadian one must solely embrace the doctorines of one Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and believe in ill-defined things like multiculturalism and federalism.

It's not that the Liberals claim these are not Canadian values, it's that they claim they are the only party that will support these values. Just like the Conservatives. Just like everyone else.

Any time a political party starts talking about values I start to tune out. It's all hot air. Politicians just trying to get the electorate all riled up. I prefer to look at the promised policies and then decide if they accord with my values. Whether or not I think those policies will ever be implemented also factors into the decision.

The fact is, Canadians hold a range of values. And every party represents those values to a degree. If they didn't, then the party wouldn't exist. But no party will ever say that because it doesn't play well. It's too honest.

Truthfully, I've never heard the Liberals claim that family, respect for work, etc., are Canadian values - in fact, I had a hard time trying to remember what I have heard them explicitly define as Canadian values. Hence, the best I could come up with was federalism and multiculturalism, because the Liberals seem, more often than not, to allude to those as if they were Canadian values.

It's quite right that one Canadian's values will differ from another's, but I still contest that, though they may be based on the values of tolerance and cooperation, multiculturalism and federalism are not values in themselves. Thus, not only do the Liberals appear to only ever allude to what Canadian values are, but allude to things which aren't actually values. Perhaps they are trying to imply through their allusions that they uphold the values of tolerance and cooperation - but, then, why not just come out and say so?

I do understand, though, that all parties will profess to stand for the values of all Canadians, and I too tend to tune out when I hear politicians uttering this hollow rhetoric. I was simply surprised this time to see a politician actually spell out what values he was basing his policies on, and indeed, they were values that one would be hard pressed to say the majority of Canadians didn't adhere to in one form or another.

[Black Dog]

I do understand, though, that all parties will profess to stand for the values of all Canadians, and I too tend to tune out when I hear politicians uttering this hollow rhetoric.

That's when I reach for my revolver.

I was simply surprised this time to see a politician actually spell out what values he was basing his policies on, and indeed, they were values that one would be hard pressed to say the majority of Canadians didn't adhere to in one form or another.

No shit. Which doesn't make them "Canadian values", it makes them "fuzzy words that Canadians would use to describe their own values." It's pandering.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The Liberals understand this and play off of it very well. They have done a great marketing job of adopting the "natinoal identity" and claiming all of their "values" as the "value of Canadians". Watch the next election: the Liberals will consistently use the term "Canadian Values".

The Conservative website:

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2590/

"Today in Oakville, Ontario Stephen Harper today released Stand up for Canada, the Conservative Party’s election platform, emphasizing that it is based on the values that he and all Canadians share.

The platform is based on the values of integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada.

“These are the values in which our plan is rooted,�? said Mr. Harper. “Values which matter to me, values which I believe matter to all Canadians, values which have endured and will endure.�?"

The key difference here seems to be that at least the Conservatives actually spelled out what they consider values held by Canadians to be. And really, I think the Liberals would have a hard time arguing that "integrity, family, respect for work, achievement, and commitment to a strong and free Canada" aren't values held by Canadians, as opposed to the Liberal allusions that to be a real Canadian one must solely embrace the doctorines of one Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and believe in ill-defined things like multiculturalism and federalism.

Exactlly.

But keeping with the topic, I am starting to question whether the Libs can win by adopting an NDP style platform?

They're really pushing the left - Layton has nowhere to go.

Sure Toronto and Vancouver continue to buy the multiculti socialized-everything trudeaupian pipe dream, but who else will? The rest of the country doesn't buy the bullshit anymore.

[Saturn]

Exactlly.

But keeping with the topic, I am starting to question whether the Libs can win by adopting an NDP style platform?

They're really pushing the left - Layton has nowhere to go.

That's precisely how the Liberals are going to win the next election. While the left and the right were weak, the Liberals could occupy the space (very wide space indeed) in the center. Now that there is a strong right, they have to move left a bit and take votes from the NDP. The reason being that under first past the post gaining 10% of the vote from the NDP has the potential to give the Liberals a majority. Essentially in first past the post there is no room for more than 2 parties. You can have 1 strong center party with some small ones on each side or 2 strong parties - 1 on the right and 1 on the left.

Furthermore, the Liberals are not going to win the next election on their own good looks. Harper has polarized the electorate and lots of NDPers will vote Liberal just to get rid of him. The Liberals don't even need to move left more than an inch - Harper has insured that lots of the NDP vote will go to the Liberals (as long as they stay to the left of him).

[madmax]

Nationalized Daycare, support for a draconian, economically dibilitating Kyoto Protocol, Anti-Afghanistan (isn't Dion?), Reducing the age of consent for anal sex to 14....

Don't these things sound more like NDP style politics?

But they aren't, they're Liberal ones.

As I said in another post:

And this could be a very good thing: isn't it refreshing to see politicians suck up to us full time, instad of just during elections?

Thoughts please.

Are the Liberals the NEW NDP.

Erm, uh, No?

Sound like Liberals to me.

But are the Conservatives just a bunch of Blue painted Liberals.

Emerson, Bagman to the unaccountable Senate, to hold the MONEY ACCOUNT!!!

Or Are the Conservatives hiding behind the NDP.

Pat Martin to help prop up their Accountability act, with lots from former MP Ed Broadbent.

I think Baird and Martin, looked a little to close, couldn't see their eyes but, Sam and Frodo, nudge nudge wink wink.

Conservatives adopting the NDP position on Quebec, while the Liberals Wavered, and continue to Waver.

Conservatives having green tea with the NDP on the clean air act. Also known as DOA.

Actually, compared to the Martin government which also talked the talk about the issues above, the Conservatives are actually working with the NDP, and the Bloc.

But wait, it will just be a matter of time when these fat cats choose to line their own pockets more, and the Libs and Conservatives will vote together, on many issues, like their history shows.

I don't think you will ever see a Liberal Party based around MouseLand.