How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[Saturn]

That's because the US pays more. We pay doctors very little. In order to pay them more to stay or live here, we would have have to double their wages which we cannot afford. It's a loosing proposition. We're screwed unless major change happens.

If this was the case, we'd be losing ever more doctors and nurses. According to the link earlier, the trend has reversed. Some of the reasons given are that the malpractice insurance is keeping some doctors from going south.

Please cite your source that says we are losing more doctors than gaining them.

I don't beleive we're losing more doctors than what we are turing out. Most people consider this country their home and would prefer to stay here. Some goes for most countries. The wealthy in any society tend to stay where they are becuase life is good there.

And yes I do kow about the issue of elites keeping the medical schools small and for the priveleged family members and insiders. I've heard about this corruption. This one guy called up a radio talk show and said that his fiance has to go to Poland to study to become a doctor in order to practice in Canada because there were only 60 seats open at the UofT and the grade cut-off was extrememly high.

I'm suggesting that even if this was fixed, the Doctor shortage is not our main issue. We need massive, massive increases in infrastructer, MRI machines, hospitals, staff, etc. A doctor is just one person in the chain of medicare.

Do you realize how much equipment we have that is sitting underutilized because we don't have the people to run it? We have multi-million dollar machines that are working only 8 hours a day because we don't have the staff to run them 24hrs. We can run our facturies 24hrs but we can't run our expensive medical equipment. At this point most hospitals are running their MRI machines overnight but until recently they were not. They started running them overnight only when the issue of MRI scan unavailability received great attention in the media. If it wasn't for all the publicity, most MRI labs would still be closed 16 hrs a day. There are billions of $s of other equipment that is sitting underutilized because there isn't much publicity about that. The reality is that if most Canadians knew how those in control of the industry are abusing us for their purposes there would be such outrage that they would have to emmigrate to the other end of the world and change their names to get away from retaliation.

[Saturn]

Why should Canadians get used to it when those in other countries do not face such waits?

Honest to God.

My ex-gf went to the Dominican Republic for a 1 week all inclusive type thing. Anyhow, they were sea-dooing and she injured her back. She went to a private hospital in near city and stayed for 2 nights.

She said that it was air conditioned, she had a phone, TV, and a room all to herself. She also got assigned a Doctor. She could pick up the phone and dial the doctor directly to come to her room. She got xrays, a menu for food and the best care.

I saw pictures from the room, I swear it was a huge room with large windows, nice painted walls, wicker chairs, picture hangings, track lighting.. I couldn't beleive it. I wish I still had those pics.

And then she got escorted out on a wheelchair with the Dr. and 2 nurses and they took pics to say goodbye and even the nurse gave her a goodbye card.

I was in shock.. I really wish I had those pictures but she deleted them all off my computer.

Honest to god, I was visiting a bankrupt Eastern European country when I had a problem and had to go through the medical system there. I saw a GP, two ear, nose, throat specialists and had a CAT scan all in the same day. It was not a private hospital (I don't think that they had any - I'm not sure) and the locals pay 1 l = 60 cents Canadian per visit for those services (the rest is paid for by the government). Here I had to wait 10 weeks to see an ear, nose, throat specialist. Now can you tell me why a bankrupt eastern european country with GDP/capita of less than $10,000 can have a better system than we do?

[Michael Hardner]

If you could hire a US programmer for $80K/year or a Spanish programmer for $40K/year, which would you choose?

This is a good example. The government has been saying we need more high tech workers, yet the market has been saturated with them. Does a GP have to be that much smarter than a computer programmer ?

[gerryhatrick]

More partican hackery.

At least present the opinions of a columnist if you're going to be pushing ideological agendas.

[Saturn]

If you could hire a US programmer for $80K/year or a Spanish programmer for $40K/year, which would you choose?

This is a good example. The government has been saying we need more high tech workers, yet the market has been saturated with them. Does a GP have to be that much smarter than a computer programmer ?

GPs get $300-400K/year, which is 3-4 times more than a programmer with a Ph.D. in computer science. Somehow, I don't think that GPs are that much smarter and I don't think that they need to make even more.

[Drea]

Today on the news (Global)...

A woman with severe foot pain is waiting three years to see a foot specialist.

If she goes to the private clinic (already here and accepting pay patients) and pays she can be all fixed up in two weeks.

TWO freakin' WEEKS!

What is wrong with this picture folks?

Rich people get care, poor people don't. Hello.

Why not have the private clinic bill government health care?

I am not against private healthcare as long as it is accessible to all regardless of income.

[mikedavid00]

Now can you tell me why a bankrupt eastern european country with GDP/capita of less than $10,000 can have a better system than we do?

Because they do not allow people to needlessly come into their countries. That is factual and provable.

[Saturn]

More partican hackery.

At least present the opinions of a columnist if you're going to be pushing ideological agendas.

Hey, even the Canadian Medical Association recently fired the editors of its magazine for writing articles that oppose privatization. This field is so saturated with opinions and there is so much spin that it's pretty hard to tell what's reliable information and what's not. All the stats on this topic I've seen suggest that our health-care system is of fairly poor quality for the amount of money we spend on it. But that's just my opinion. I also happen to know a very large number of health care workers (most of my family for example) and most of them just happen to share my opinion (of course I know a couple who barely make ends meet on $300K/year and totally disagree with me). Btw, what makes you think that some journalist knows a whole lot more about health care than I do? I know that journalists have no idea about my area of expertise and write total nonsense related to it, so I'm not convinced that their opinions on other subjects are all that informed and trustworthy.

[mikedavid00]

Today on the news (Global)...

A woman with severe foot pain is waiting three years to see a foot specialist.

If she goes to the private clinic (already here and accepting pay patients) and pays she can be all fixed up in two weeks.

TWO freakin' WEEKS!

What is wrong with this picture folks?

Rich people get care, poor people don't. Hello.

Why not have the private clinic bill government health care?

I am not against private healthcare as long as it is accessible to all regardless of income.

All clinics are private clinics that bill the gov't. However, this clinic is cash only because they make more money this way.

If more people use these clinics, then her wait time will be shorter. Thus, it's a win/win for everyone involved.

Yes. You are right that everyone should receive healthcare like they do in the US without waiting. However, it's people like you who prevent this from happening in Canada becuase your using a rich/poor argument.

We are in a state of crisis right now that needs to be immediately addressed. There is no solution except to allow American health providers and insurance companies into Canada and let working people or people with savings use them. That will off load the public system so her wait times will be shorter.

our country is not 'rich' enough to fix this problem.

[Drea]

I agree that we're not rich enough. Private business (clinics, etc) bring money. They don't just "recycle" money from one coffer into another -- the government paying the government.

IMO the very best we could do is to have private hospitals bill the government. We could still pay health premiums and of keep employer sponsored extended health care.

Win win.

Our current system is overloaded with goverment employees. Private clinics would pay better, the working conditions would be better. They would have to compete for business/patients -- customer service is what makes a business successful.

Currently, the govt hospitals don't have to provide good service (not the fault of the nurses, doctors, etc) because people have no other choice.

[Saturn]

Today on the news (Global)...

A woman with severe foot pain is waiting three years to see a foot specialist.

If she goes to the private clinic (already here and accepting pay patients) and pays she can be all fixed up in two weeks.

TWO freakin' WEEKS!

What is wrong with this picture folks?

Rich people get care, poor people don't. Hello.

Why not have the private clinic bill government health care?

I am not against private healthcare as long as it is accessible to all regardless of income.

Most doctors in Canada run private clinics/offices. Your GP is not a government worker - s/he is a private practicioner who just bills the government for the services s/he provides. That's what we call public health care - health care paid for by the government regardless of who provides it. So if you went to that private clinic and the government paid for it, that would be public health care. Private health care is care that YOU pay for. So private health care is NOT accessible to all regardless of income. Now there are some private, i.e. for profit, clinics where you can get services and the government will pay for them. But that means that you can't jump the queue and you still have to wait in line.

One of the main reasons for having to wait so long is that we want our health care real cheap. We want good health care that we don't want to wait for but we don't want to pay for it. We call it free health care but it's not free - it still costs money. But we prefer tax cuts instead and since we pay less, we get a poorer service. Canadian taxpayers have made our choice and we've decided that that's what's acceptable to us.

[Drea]

The burden on our healthcare system is ridiculous.

People in Canada run to the doctor for the sniffles. This is the problem. We have a sense of entitlement with regard to our healthcare and many people abuse it.

[jdobbin]

Now can you tell me why a bankrupt eastern european country with GDP/capita of less than $10,000 can have a better system than we do?

Because they do not allow people to needlessly come into their countries. That is factual and provable.

Okay, let's see the evidence.

[jdobbin]

The burden on our healthcare system is ridiculous.

People in Canada run to the doctor for the sniffles. This is the problem. We have a sense of entitlement with regard to our healthcare and many people abuse it.

Is that what you've heard or is that what research shows? So many people here are giving their opinion of things but no real evidence that this is occuring.

[Saturn]

Today on the news (Global)...

A woman with severe foot pain is waiting three years to see a foot specialist.

If she goes to the private clinic (already here and accepting pay patients) and pays she can be all fixed up in two weeks.

TWO freakin' WEEKS!

What is wrong with this picture folks?

Rich people get care, poor people don't. Hello.

Why not have the private clinic bill government health care?

I am not against private healthcare as long as it is accessible to all regardless of income.

All clinics are private clinics that bill the gov't. However, this clinic is cash only because they make more money this way.

If more people use these clinics, then her wait time will be shorter. Thus, it's a win/win for everyone involved.

Yes. You are right that everyone should receive healthcare like they do in the US without waiting. However, it's people like you who prevent this from happening in Canada becuase your using a rich/poor argument.

We are in a state of crisis right now that needs to be immediately addressed. There is no solution except to allow American health providers and insurance companies into Canada and let working people or people with savings use them. That will off load the public system so her wait times will be shorter.

our country is not 'rich' enough to fix this problem.

Wrong. You are again forgeting the fact that you can't get more services from the same number of doctors. To say that the number of doctors will magically increase by privatizing health-care makes no sense whatsoever. One doctor can see only one patient at a time - he can't be in two places at the same time. So privatising health care will only change who waits and who doesn't - the total amount of health-care services won't change. In the public system everyone waits, in the private system poorer people wait longer and richer people wait shorter. The other difference is that the private system costs 50% more than the public system. Again, I already said that if you are eager to pay for health care you can go to the US. In fact, that's what many rich Canadians do.

[Saturn]

I agree that we're not rich enough. Private business (clinics, etc) bring money. They don't just "recycle" money from one coffer into another -- the government paying the government.

IMO the very best we could do is to have private hospitals bill the government. We could still pay health premiums and of keep employer sponsored extended health care.

Win win.

Our current system is overloaded with goverment employees. Private clinics would pay better, the working conditions would be better. They would have to compete for business/patients -- customer service is what makes a business successful.

Currently, the govt hospitals don't have to provide good service (not the fault of the nurses, doctors, etc) because people have no other choice.

LOL, that's just funny. You just get private clinics and tens of thousands of competing doctors and nurses will fall out of the sky. Interesting point!

[Drea]

More people would go into healthcare because the working conditions and morale would be better.

I was at the hospital the other day and there was no smiling going on, no happy employees.

These people are providing a service.

Shouldn't the service they provide be better than the waitresses at Denny's?

[jdobbin]

More people would go into healthcare because the working conditions and morale would be better.

I was at the hospital the other day and there was no smiling going on, no happy employees.

These people are providing a service.

Shouldn't the service they provide be better than the waitresses at Denny's?

One of the reasons there are fewer doctors and nurses is because governments capped their numbers.

[Michael Hardner]

The sad thing is that the facts that would help this debate are not easily accessible, even by intelligent members of the public such as the average MLW poster.

The Canadian Institute for Health Information CIHI Website is supposed to be an open site that provides information for the public to make such decisions. It's ... ok ... but the site is hard to navigate and it's tough to get real information out of it.

Some of that might be due to the fact that the CIHI isn't as independent as it claims to be - with board members coming mostly from the very health system that we all agree is in need of repair.

I searched for 'salaries' on the web site, and found a nice Excel sheet that detailed (I think) percentage of hospital budgets that go to physician salaries, drugs and so forth but I couldn't find anything that showed raw numbers - salaries and expenditures adjusted for inflation.

We, the electorate, have to demand better accountability and better data with which to make our decisions.

[mikedavid00]

I agree that we're not rich enough. Private business (clinics, etc) bring money. They don't just "recycle" money from one coffer into another -- the government paying the government.

IMO the very best we could do is to have private hospitals bill the government. We could still pay health premiums and of keep employer sponsored extended health care.

That is how the public system in the US works. Our medical clinics also do the same.

Win win.

Not really. It unfortunately is not possible although it sounds like a good idea on its face. Each private hospital needs a private insurance company backing them. Then these insurance companies need buyers of their plans; typically employers who offer them to employees.

Typically your employer will give you the plan to stay competative. It will only cost them $400 a month. Or, they can pay 75% of the plan. This would be a way to retain employees. Or, you could purchase your own plan and hopefully get a tax refund from the gov't because you hold a private plan and are not goinig to use gov't services.

This is basically a 2 tier US style system that is proven to work because everything stays as private as possible.

I still say that a public system is possible in Canada, but not with 300,000 people a year entering in the country and with 70% of those being family sponsored.

Our current system is overloaded with goverment employees. Private clinics would pay better, the working conditions would be better. They would have to compete for business/patients -- customer service is what makes a business successful.

I agree. In Ottawa our General hospital board spent $60,000,000 to examine French/English language issues despite there being not one single complaint. This kind of thing would never go on in a private system.

Currently, the govt hospitals don't have to provide good service (not the fault of the nurses, doctors, etc) because people have no other choice.

I agree. Also the private systems have a vested interest to get more doctors so they fund and promote medical schools and play a big role in Universities. From what I understand there is a problem in Canada with elites keeping medical school enrollment small. Basically if you are the son of a doctor or part of an organization then you get in. If not who knows.

For a full resolution, I feel that the big US based companies would have to come into our cities and towns, get the cranes up, and build brand new facilities all over Canada. A chunk of all current patients would move over to the private system thus helping the public system. Doctors would stay for more better working condidions and pay. Private hospitals would help expand our universisities so we turn out more Doctors, and things would get better. Plus it would create more employment here in Canada.

Trying to change our current healthcare regiem of elites pocketing our money would be political suicide for any politician so I don't see that happening.

[mikedavid00]

The burden on our healthcare system is ridiculous.

People in Canada run to the doctor for the sniffles. This is the problem. We have a sense of entitlement with regard to our healthcare and many people abuse it.

Is that what you've heard or is that what research shows? So many people here are giving their opinion of things but no real evidence that this is occuring.

Actually I think I'm the only one that presented numbers and a real world argument. We are letting people use a system that did not pay into it, thus it's small and underfunded for the amount of people using it. It's not just the sniffles, it's triple bypass surgeries and other treatments.

We are in a crisis situation.

[Saturn]

More people would go into healthcare because the working conditions and morale would be better.

I was at the hospital the other day and there was no smiling going on, no happy employees.

These people are providing a service.

Shouldn't the service they provide be better than the waitresses at Denny's?

One of the reasons there are fewer doctors and nurses is because governments capped their numbers.

Governments capped their numbers under pressure from the medical associations. I'm not saying that there isn't certain amount of collusion there but the public isn't putting pressure on governments to increase the number of doctors, so governments are unlikely to do it. On top of that the public is demanding that we pay less for health-care, which makes it difficult for governments to afford more doctors (without pissing off the medical associations). So really, it comes down to what we want and what we are willing to push for.

[jdobbin]

Actually I think I'm the only one that presented numbers and a real world argument. We are letting people use a system that did not pay into it, thus it's small and underfunded for the amount of people using it. It's not just the sniffles, it's triple bypass surgeries and other treatments.

We are in a crisis situation.

For my sake then, where are those numbers?

[geoffrey]

Actually I think I'm the only one that presented numbers and a real world argument. We are letting people use a system that did not pay into it, thus it's small and underfunded for the amount of people using it. It's not just the sniffles, it's triple bypass surgeries and other treatments.

We are in a crisis situation.

It's the sniffles that are killing us. Coronary surgery meets all acceptable benchmarks Canada wide. ER queues are bogged down by people that have the sniffles.

A $30 visit fee at ER's, payable in cash (debit or VISA also accepted!) at the triage would cut the queues considerably, with little loss in people that should be visiting but don't because of the money.

A pay per use system in the ER's is step one in the reform, step one of about a thousand.

[jdobbin]

Governments capped their numbers under pressure from the medical associations. I'm not saying that there isn't certain amount of collusion there but the public isn't putting pressure on governments to increase the number of doctors, so governments are unlikely to do it. On top of that the public is demanding that we pay less for health-care, which makes it difficult for governments to afford more doctors (without pissing off the medical associations). So really, it comes down to what we want and what we are willing to push for.

It was done in many provinces by cutting numbers of medical graduates in a cost saving measure. They found there was a hidden cost in that.