Alliance PC Merger Discussion

[dnsfurlan]

An intersting dynamic has been set up by Stephen Harper.

This is how he has framed his version of events: the Tories have not come up with specifics. This is why talks have stalled. For them to continue, Mackay or his team have to put something down in writing.

On the PC side, Loyola Hearn has said that they have something in writing and that Harper's interference has caused problems.

Funny. Hearn could have simply gotten a hold of a fax machine and sent his proposals over to Harper's office. Furthermore, Harper's criticism of the PCs in this has been specific. Hearn's accusations of Harper's interference are easy to make and not very substantive.

So, Mackay tomorrow will hold his own press conference to explain his position. If he doesn't come up with his own piece of paper, then he'll have some fancy explaining to do - not a first for him. Also, notice that it takes him almost 24 hours longer to prepare an explanation for the media. Harper came out already and fully explained his position to the press. Mackay seems to need to get his story straight before doing the same. Lets hope its a good one.

You gotta like Harper's position here. He's saying to Mackay: show me something or shut the f**k up. Lets see if he has anything to show.

[sir_springer]

MacKay has been so outclassed by Harper through all of this, it's a wonder he even wants to show his face in public.

Harper is demonstrating what "leadership" is all about.

And MacKay is giving a classic demonstration of the antithesis of leadership.

Just watched Politics, and a ten minute interview with both Scott Reid and Loyola Hearn.

Reid was confident, clear and to the point, specific on his answers.

And Hearn was edgy, cautious, and quite unspecific about anything.

Makes me wonder if Harper looked at this for two possible scenarios:

a) they get a coalition...and only because Harper pushed the issue.

Or...

failing that, he's provided the PCs, and MacKay, with as much rope as they need to hang themselves once and for all.

At the end of the show there was his "leadership panel" discussion with Specter, Gossage, and Anderson.

Anderson made a good point.

He said that there's all this talk about the CA taking over the PCs...

When in fact, since the original UA convention with its huge influx of PCers into the new CA, a great many Reformers are deeply concerned that in fact it is the PCs who are taking over the Reform, and thus watering down its initial raison d'etre.

Very true.

I don't think Harper's about to let that process get carried away.

Harper wants a "conservative" coalition...but not at any price, that much is clear.

And so it should be.

We didn't come all this way just to give it all away in the end game and become Liberals.

Hearn kept piss-whining about how Harper was interfering in the process.

Harper is leader of the party, for Gawd's sake. It is the job for which he has been mandated by the membership to take care of the best interests of what the CA is all about.

I think the reason we're not seeing anything from MacKay in this is so at the end of the day he can claim plausible denial of everything.

If this is the Tories idea of leadership...and given the totally uninspiring leaders of their last 5 decades, save perhaps for Mulroney...it is no wonder they've never managed to do better than play second fiddle to the Liberals. They're hopeless. Thoroughly hopeless. These people wouldn't know leadership if it were hanging off their chins.

And to listen to the media in this pathetic country, you'd think "leadership" equates to "kiss ass". Basically, their biggest problem with Harper is that he simply won't kiss ass...therefore, he is not qualified to be Prime Minister of Canada. For every knows that to be PM of this country, one must have the inate ability to kiss ass until the cows come home, or else suffer the consequences. Canada is a disparate nation, and kissing ass apparently is the only means of holding it together.

I have to admit...

No one can kiss ass like a Liberal...while twisting the knife in one's back at the same time.

[westcoast99]

I think we've come too far in this to go back now. Both the PC's and Tories have caucus meetings tomorrow and both of them will face pressure to get these talks going again.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Craig Read]

Springer, - good post and right on. Harper is about 10x smarter and better informed than MacKay. MacKay and the Red Tories are a sham.

[dnsfurlan]

Both the PC's and Tories have caucus meetings tomorrow and both of them will face pressure to get these talks going again.

Gugsy, they can't talk forever. We all know about the very real possibility of a spring election. These discussions have already been going on for three months. Harper wants some solid proposals on the table, and all Mackay has is a paper with some "values" listed and a declaration that his emmissaries were negotiating in "good faith". Harper comes up with the goods. Mackay keeps talking. Its the same old, same old. Looks like Mackay learned well from his mentor Joe Clark.

Although merger would have some advantages, I still think Harper can pull his own in an upcoming election. Mackay doesn't seem like he's in the same leage as Harper. And I don't care what the poll numbers are, rigged or otherwise. Going into the next election with Peter Mackay as your leader isn't the most inspiring thought, now, is it?

[Neal.F.]

The 14 points that Harper presented were vey fair and more generous than Tories could have hoped for. As far as I'm concerned the Tories have committed political suicide....

WIPING OUT THE DEBT? and they turned that down?

Thanks to the Red Tories, we will have Liberal governments for the forseeable future.

I hope the blue ones have enough common sense to leave Clark, Borotsik, Bachand sitting as independents.

[westcoast99]

If they don't merge, Paul Martin and the Liberals will steam roll them.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[dnsfurlan]

It's now or never. The Tories and Alliance can both die, or they can win together.

Tell that to Mackay.

From my standpoint, I'm fine with Harper leading the Alliance into the next election. I wouldn't be so confident with Mackay at the helm, though.

Again, merger was always a precarious proposition and a lot to ask for at this stage of the game.

I think Harper has handled himself well through this. He wanted to see where merger talks would lead. Mackay keeps dragging it along. So, lets stop the charade and see who can oppose Paul Martin the best. My bet is on Stevey.

[Neal.F.]

Gugsy is right they both look like Horse's asses, and my bet is that Canadians in general will say "A pox on both your houses"

Who is going to trust guys who can't get it together even when death is staring them both in the face?

Nobody will take them seriously anymore. They have blown it.

This bonehead move may have even cost the CA some seats in Alberta.

[westcoast99]

Come on, both sides need to grow up and come to an agreement quickly, or they will look foolish.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Neal.F.]

Totally agree. BOTH parties will fall to 8% or lower nationally. And thoroughly deserve it.

They teased us, then walked away. Either they get back to the table, and wrap it up by Oct 10th, or it's over, and the dynamic switches from Liberal/Conservative to Liberal/NDP.

What a sick bloody joke.

[dnsfurlan]

You don't get a nation excited over the possibility of a new political entity and all that goes with it then call it off, over what? A little disagreement over how a leader would be elected?

Who was getting excited? Most people seemed to look upon the thing as yet another round of fruitless talks.

I question the start of these merger talks in the first place. The idea of forming a brand new party, with Mike Harris as its leader, within 6 months was always a dubious proposition.

Creating a party in 6 months is unrealistic. The possibility of political climate change is not. Instead of adding to the expectation of a Martin sweep, everyone should be fighting it, regardless of what party they're in.

[theWatcher]

Want to hear a sick bloody joke?

Here is the dictionary definition for the "Emissary" word that has been floating around:

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

emissary

\Em"is*sa*ry\, n.; pl. Emissaries. [L. emissarius, fr. emittere, emissum, to send out: cf. F. ['e]missaire. See Emit.] An agent employed to advance, in a covert manner, the interests of his employers; one sent out by any power that is at war with another, to create dissatisfaction among the people of the latter.

Buzzing emissaries fill the ears Of listening crowds with jealousies and fears. --Dryden.

Syn: Emissary, Spy.

Usage: A spy is one who enters an enemy's camp or territories to learn the condition of the enemy; an emissary may be a secret agent appointed not only to detect the schemes of an opposing party, but to influence their councils. A spy must be concealed, or he suffers death; an emissary may in some cases be known as the agent of an adversary without incurring similar hazard.

Now think about who has been throwing that term around everywhere.

Coupled with the fact that Mackay signed a non merger deal with Orchard.

So if he was persueing a merger he was reneging on the Orchard deal.

And if he had no intention of making a merger deal (thus keeping his deal with Orchard) he was not bargaining in good faith.

Which one was it?

[dnsfurlan]

In the meantime,

Stephen Harper has been spending much of his time getting ready for the next election. While many seem obsessed with mid-term polls that mean almost nothing, Harper has been doing things such as:

My Paul Martin's title has changed -- but has anything else?

Paul Martin's title has changed -- but has anything else?

PUBLICATION: The Province

DATE: 2003.09.28

EDITION: FINAL C

SECTION: Editorial

PAGE: A22

BYLINE: Stephen Harper

SOURCE: Special to The Province

Big cities like Vancouver have faced challenges as they've grown -- and the federal government has turned a blind eye.

Over the past year, the Canadian Alliance has been in a rebuilding phase, placing a special emphasis on policy development. High on the list is improving Ottawa's relationship with the provinces, territories and municipalities -- particularly as it relates to infrastructure. Before discussing details, let's look at how we got here.

For the past 30 years, the federal government spent more money than it received in tax revenues. Finances were plundered to pay for the grand schemes of Liberal politicians such as Pierre Trudeau and Paul Martin.

The motto was "spend, spend, spend," and Canadians paid, paid, paid. As Canada's debt grew, our infrastructure deteriorated and capital investment declined. It left Canadians with a heavy financial burden and fewer public services.

Canada continues to fall behind in making necessary investments in long-term, growth-driven infrastructure. This, despite the fact that the federal gasoline excise tax collects roughly $4.5 billion yearly.

Every time Canadians fill the gas tank, they pay 10 cents per litre to Ottawa, while their roads deteriorate. As minister of finance Martin added another 1.5 cent per litre tax in the 1995 budget, under the guise of deficit reduction. The deficit is gone, yet we're still paying the reduction tax. No wonder taxpayers and local governments are frustrated. The term "all politics is local" takes on new meaning when it comes to an infrastructure plan.

There is an increase in federal spending and in Liberal MPs showing up for ribbon cutting ceremonies.

As the new Liberal leader, Martin has been sprinkling promises wherever he lands. Yet as finance minister, he neglected to give cities a dime of the gas tax. He's had nine years to carve out a new deal for cities. His title may have changed but how can Canadians trust that his motives are any different?

The fact is he contributed to many of the problems cities now face -- either by failing to act or by acting erroneously. In the mid-1990s, he cut essential services such as ports police and the RCMP while

Liberal MPs ran around funding bocce courts, canoe museums and golf courses under the federal infrastructure program.

Clearly, it is time for a change in direction. From the Alliance's point of view, the federal government has a duty to upgrade and provide security for national infrastructure such as border crossings, airports, ports, and railways. It needs to place a greater reliance on alternative sources of financing such as private sector investment.

Secondly, Ottawa should negotiate an agreement with the provinces to vacate 3 to 5 cents-a-litre of federal excise tax on gasoline to provide new tax room and a stable source of income to the provinces for funding roads, sewers and other infrastructure.

In contrast to the old deal set-up by the former finance minister, the infrastructure plan set out by the Canadian Alliance provides room for growth in the economy -- and real change for Canadians.

Stephen Harper is the Leader of the Official Opposition and the Leader of the Canadian Alliance

The campaign hasn't even begun yet. Once it does, then lets see what happens.

[sir_springer]

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

"Shut up, Chicken Little!"

Boy, has the media ever got some of you people by your short hairs or what!!!

Anyone listen to Fraser today as she released he latest report on the Radwansky fiasco?

Said she's never seen anything like it. Calling in the RCMP for yet another investigation.

And her report on government advertising is due out shortly, which I don't doubt promises to be every bit as much of a bombshell as the last one...if not worse.

Hardly 60,000 out of 531,000 members bothered to vote in their leadership contest.

Martin's complicity in all of this waste and bastardising of our healthcare and military is uncontestable.

Martin's complicity in writing the cheques for the gun registry is uncontestable.

Martin's total lack of fiscal control over hundreds of billions in government spending is uncontestable.

The guy is a walking, talking political target just looking for a place to get plugged...over and over and over.

And he will get plugged...like he can't believe.

C'mon, people! Grab a hold of reality for just a moment and settle down! It's an illusion, all of it...and a damn crappy one at that.

Martin is a fraud!

And almost any idiot can prove it.

Unfortunately for Martin, the one thing Harper ain't is an idiot.

Political fortunes spin on a dime in this country...

And usually right in the middle of an election.

I'll put my money on Harper over Martin any day of the week.

[theWatcher]

Recent Tory Quote:

"Mr. Harper needs to understand that no means no," said Tory MP Gerald Keddy after question period. "This game is over. There's absolutely no point, in my opinion, of continuing any further."

So did the Tories say no.......

Or didn't they?

[dnsfurlan]

There is even more to that quote. Here it is in even more interesting detail:

Tories blame Alliance for failed merger talks; Harper says talks can resume

And at least one Conservative, party whip Gerald Keddy, said that's the end of it.

"This game is over," Keddy said moments after Harper signalled talks could resume.

"Don't come out now and try to drag the Progressive Conservative party back into the same pit of snakes that we've been into for the past two weeks"

So, on the one hand you have Mackay and his emmissaries telling us they were eager to have the discussions continue. On the other hand, you have Geral Keddy telling us there is now way the PCs should continue to deal in a "pit of snakes".

Which is it PC Party?

Also, among the more brilliant proposals made by the PC 'emmissaries', as outlined in their report to Peter Mackay:

- The right to own property.

Gee, with these sticky issues out of the way, how in the world did the talks ever bog down?

[sir_springer]

Anyone notice yet...

There has not been one negative word out of the CA caucus toward the PCs.

Certainly nothing on the scale of the vitriol being spouted like this bozo.

And Wayne is still spouting her tripe about the CA coming home to the PC Party...of all the unmitigated gall.

It is clearly obvious who is leading his party...

And who doesn't have a clue in hell on how to lead a party.

[Mr. Chater]

Although Harper is showing Real LeaderShip. I believe it is time they both stepped down (which is why we are trying to have a coalition). I think it is time for a new face, like Mike Harris to take the spot as leader, hopefully not make the same flaws these two have and lead this country to victory...

[sir_springer]

Harper is far and away the single most qualified man for Prime Minister in Canada, bar none.

Why the hell should a damn good man...intelligent, honest, principled, young, articulate, shrewd, and capable as hell...step down for some old has been like Harris?

To hell with that notion!

On his best day, Harris couldn't match Harper with one hand behind his back.

This country needs Harper desperately, we have not a chance for real Prime Minister like this since I can't remember when.

For him to step aside now for the likes of Harris would be a travesty and a tragedy for Canada.

[Mr. Chater]

If he is a real leader, then this merger will happen and the right shall hit victory. But until then..they will be nothing.

[Pellaken]

2 calls, one to the PC Party of Canada, and the other to the Canadian Alliance...

both said to "watch newsworld" for any news of a merger

the PC's also confirmed talks are ongoing

and said this:

"we do not know any more then the public, but we are watching newsworld very closley, incase anything happens by the end of the day"

[Pellaken]

how the hell did my title, and post, get into this thread?

[dnsfurlan]

I never started a forum with this title, either. Are these boards going whacky?

[westcoast99]

I noticed that Pell. I didn't remember a post titled "2 phone calls."

Maybe Greg that it was important enough to change the title?

It's good news. I am confident that a merger will occur. Even CBC is making it sound that a merger is going to happen using speech like...

"The only thing left to be agreed upon by the two parties is the process in which a new leader will be chosen."

Let's just hope.