Israel Defends Itself

[KrustyKidd]

I agree but add the caveat that state terrorism used to maintain a system of inequality and oppression, as the practiced by the IDF in the Occupied Territories, must also cease.

Hamas and Jihad target women and children deliberately and once in awhile kill a soldier by chance. Israel on the other hand deliberately targets those who attack and plan the attacks on their women and children. Once in awhile they accidently kill a woman or child. When this happens they frequently hold inquires and take preventative action.

Tell me Black Dog, why does Israel purposfully minimize the explosive power of the missiles they use to attack their targets? Truely if they were terrorists as you say they would go for the maximum death and destructive effect. Much like how the Palistinians maximize the amount of non combatents they kill.

The answer is that Israel is taking military ation against those who attack her and attemps to minimize collateral damage whereas the Palistinians are killing purely for shock value.

[Thomas Burke]

You really think that the terrorism would stop, wow you are really ignorant. No, Im sorry that It sounded like i said all Palestinians are racists, I should have said all Terrorists in that region are racists towards Israel (which would include a considerable amount of Palestinians)

So Black dog, if Israel gave up all that crap, you really think the terroism would stop there, no more terrorism.

No Hamas has got to go, Arafat has got to go, then we can have peace. Terrorism is the Problem there,

Yea you, and leftwingers like you have really tried to put the US down for supporting the Contra/Iranian stuff.

Here is my view of terrorism:

Terrorism, is targeting civilians using underhand tactics such as blowing yourself up. Terrorism is Killing many innocents, thinking it will bring down Christianity, blah blah blah blah blah. Terrorism=the worst form of racism, killing because of their religion.

Here is my take on the Freedom fighter:

A freedom fighter is a person fighting for their country, region etc. for independence.

You would think Palestine would have a valid argument with this, but you have freedom fighters mixed in with terrorism, who support terrorists. Then that makes them all terrorists.

The fact is Freedom fighters don't fight because of racism and terrorists fight because of racism.

It mostly boils down to that.

You are ignorant yourself if you think the Palestinians started the war with Israel. Go ahead and see my other post in the American Patriotism thread because I am too disgusted with a brainwashed ignoramus like you to explain myself again.

Really. If you want more information on the war go ahead and read some history. Otherwise listen to my arguments and you'll learn alot.

[Thomas Burke]

Hamas and Jihad target women and children deliberately and once in awhile kill a soldier by chance. Israel on the other hand deliberately targets those who attack and plan the attacks on their women and children. Once in awhile they accidently kill a woman or child. When this happens they frequently hold inquires and take preventative action.

Tell me Black Dog, why does Israel purposfully minimize the explosive power of the missiles they use to attack their targets? Truely if they were terrorists as you say they would go for the maximum death and destructive effect. Much like how the Palistinians maximize the amount of non combatents they kill.

The answer is that Israel is taking military ation against those who attack her and attemps to minimize collateral damage whereas the Palistinians are killing purely for shock value.

You too should see my other post in the American Patriotism thread in the US Politics Forum. It relates to exactly how the Israeli started the most recent conflict by opening fire on rioting Palestinians, mostly teenage children.

You have a point in saying that they purposefully minimize the explosive power, but that is because they don't need to. How much of an explosion do you need to kill a large amount of people? Not very much. A few bombs/missiles here and there and you can take out a whole city.

Yes, they are taking military action against those who attack her... those who attack her with rocks! Then they respond with automatic rifles and platoons. The real reason the Palestinians carry out their style of warfare is because any other kind would be useless and they are desperate, not because they are more malicious than the Israeli.

Free Palestine!

[KrustyKidd]

No no no. Of course terrorism wouldn't stop overnight, as the more extremist elements will continue to oppose Israel's very existence. The key to curtailing terrorism is to drain the swamp. Terrorism and anti-Israel sentiment is fueled by the continuing plight of the Palestinian people, including the use of excessive force and collective punishment by Israeli forces.

Simply killing every suspected militant you can get your hands on (especially with the disregard the IDF shows for civilians when conducting their assasination operations) won't do a damn thing to improve the situation. For every militant Israel makes a martyr of, more will spring up. Why? Because you can can't kill an idea or a cause.

If Israel spent more energy on aiding th ePalestinian people in keeping order and bettering their society instead of bulldozing homes and shooting at ambulances, popular support for militant causes would, eventually, dry up.

Good post BD. I agree wholeheartedly with you. However, once again cold hard reality gets in the way of a perfect world. The gestation period this would take is decades if not generations, individually how would an Israeli take the loss of a loved on everynow and then so the Palisinians can have the opportunity to "work out these personal issues" or "get on board the soul train?" Remember, in comparisson the ninteen people killed in last week's attack would be like America suffering 1,900 dead. Almost the equivilent of the WTC. The PLO was given the opportunity to enforce itself and used the weapons against Israel, currently there is no attempt by the leadership in Palistine to curb the terrorists. A change in leadership within the PA is necessary then followed by dismanteling of Hamas and Holy Jumpin whatever then enact your plan. The leadership perpetuates this animosity to stay in charge, they are the cancer in this operation.

[KrustyKidd]

Hamas and Jihad target women and children deliberately and once in awhile kill a soldier by chance.  Israel on the other hand deliberately targets those who attack and plan the attacks on their women and children.  Once in awhile they accidently kill a woman or child.  When this happens they frequently hold inquires and take preventative action.

Tell me Black Dog, why does Israel purposfully minimize the explosive power of the missiles they use to attack their targets?  Truely if they were terrorists as you say they would go for the maximum death and destructive effect. Much like how the Palistinians maximize the amount of non combatents they kill. 

The answer is that Israel is taking military ation against those who attack her and attemps to minimize collateral damage whereas the Palistinians are killing purely for shock value.

You too should see my other post in the American Patriotism thread in the US Politics Forum. It relates to exactly how the Israeli started the most recent conflict by opening fire on rioting Palestinians, mostly teenage children.

You have a point in saying that they purposefully minimize the explosive power, but that is because they don't need to. How much of an explosion do you need to kill a large amount of people? Not very much. A few bombs/missiles here and there and you can take out a whole city.

Yes, they are taking military action against those who attack her... those who attack her with rocks! Then they respond with automatic rifles and platoons. The real reason the Palestinians carry out their style of warfare is because any other kind would be useless and they are desperate, not because they are more malicious than the Israeli.

Free Palestine!

Spare me the kleenex SVP. Kids and rocks are responded to with rubber bullets and sometimes bullets. I've had rocks thrown at me in the Old City, pretty scary stuff. This however is not what we were talking about when saying minimizing explosive power.

It was rather when Israel targets the goon (s) who sent the latest adolesent to meet Allah along with doctors, kids, mothers and whoever else is evil enough to cross the Palistinian people by trying to live a normal life. If terror was the motive then you want to know all of Gaza would be levelled in an hour. Terrorism, nice try. At worst it's a miscalibration of the amount of explosive needed to kill one or two murdereres who are hiding behind women and children after they have killed their own and Israels children in a suicide attack.

I think that you will find that I am evenly balanced however I am somewhat realistic. For example, it really does not matter who owned what and when and who God promised what to and how many of who got killed when. The situation is that Israel occupies a certain amount of land and they are not going anywhere. Palistinians on the other hand occupy a shithole and are also not going anywhere. Why and when matters only to those who live in the past, reality is that these people have to get together. Israel tries time and time again and each time Hamas kills innocents. Israel responds by leveling the homes of the bombers and the mothers get (or used to) $25 grand from Saddam.

Most people refer to the above as a cycle of violence but to be a cycle it must continue through the revolution. Israel reacts by taking out the leadership of Hamas for a purpose other than mindless violence - prevention of further attacks from that cell. Ever notice they don't just drop a bloody nuke and take out all the followership? Course not, because you listen to rhetoric and that is what your arguments are; rhetoric. Take a cue from Black Dog, at least he has a grip on what is going on and comes up with solutions other than the party line.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I believe both sides are guilty, and both sides must take steps to rectify this imbroglio.

It could be argued that Israel is mostly to blame for the escalating violence. Hamas used to be non-violent, and was supported indirectly by Israel and the US. The more land Israel took from the Palestinians, and the more laws passed to eliminate economic competition from Palestinians, the more aggrieved they became. First they protested peacefully, then came the stones and firebombs, then suicide bombers.

In a book called Inifada, (1987 by Ze'ef Schiff and Ehud Ya'ari) they understood that the escalation of violence was because many Palestinians, especially those of Gaza, "simply had nothing left to lose". Oddly enough, the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) took the most moral of stands by any of the participants, and also were the most criticized by all sides.

The IDF sought to maintain their high moral standards, under fire from the right for being too soft, and by the left and by the palestinians for being too harsh. They tried to follow orders while still being 'human', and for and occupying force they indeed performed admirably.

However, Ariel Sharon and his ilk would have eradicated the Palestinians and taken the land that they coveted, claiming 'covanent' with G-d.

The claim is that 'fanatical muslims' wish to eliminate Y'Israel, yet Israel wishes to eliminate Palestine. A no win situation, so I say rename the whole place as "the Holy Land' and give neither providence.

[KrustyKidd]

Intresting, I'll pick it up at the library. Thanks.

I like Black Dog's way "drain the swamp" however with a few innovations.

First; While allowing them to finish their wall get Israel behind closed doors to write out what they are prepared to give if they get complete peace. Everything. No attacks, a modern productive trading partner living next to them. Not this crap with settlements and stuff but complete dismantling for complete peace. Take the main jist of the concessions and let it be known that this is what they will give up in return for peace.

Two: get the UN into Palistine to supervise an election. Look at the candidates and find the one that is willing to work towards peace. Get him behind closed doors with Israel and have the UN throw in the kicker. $50,000 to every man or family in Palistine if he wins. This is provided that he follows with a plan set forth and the payment is not lump sum but a monthly thing over five or ten years..

Three: When he wins, he must dismantle the terrorist cells . To help him the UN moves in forces to aid the Palistinian police. As they move new homes are being built for people by Israelis as a sign that they are keeping their end of the bargain.

I believe that money talks. I also think that this could drain the swamp to a degree where these people would have a chance to be productive and possibly within a generation actually live without a wall. What do you think Lonious?

[Derek]

The Real Question is: Who do you think should stop the violence first? Israel or Palestine.

I agree that Israel needs to think out their plans further untill they find the terrorists, instead of firing a missile into a crowd, firing bullets, etc. etc. But there is a flipside to that coin, when the Israeli's are under fire they arent going to think twice about palestinian civilians.

[SirRiff]

we all agree that isreal was born of terrorism too right?

its not like the israeli borders were drawn by the hand of God or anything, they fought for thier land too.

SirRiff

[Derek]

we all agree that isreal was born of terrorism too right?

its not like the israeli borders were drawn by the hand of God or anything, they fought for thier land too.

SirRiff

No its not but its not like they oppressed the people there from the start. Don't try to tell me they did, I know my history.

We all know the world isn't fair, and there is no way Palestine is going to get its land they want, all I have to say is, TOUGH. We needed a democracy in that region, thats what happened, and plus if you want to be technical the Jews(which live in Israel) were there before the Palestinians.

Nobody is going to be able to make this conflict go away anytime soon. If palestine would stop the attacks so would Israel, but you can't have peace when you have terrorism. Right now Israel is defending their country. Do you remember when the british were in The mideast, they did the same with Iraq, and a number of other countries also. (drew the country's boundries)

[KrustyKidd]

It's like the sinking on the Titanic Riff. Didn't matter how you got there, you were there and needed to do something fast to not be there.

[FastNed]

SirRiff, Israel was born of the UN which followed the path of the League of Nations, not terrorism.

[SirRiff]

SirRiff, Israel was born of the UN which followed the path of the League of Nations, not terrorism

no, israel was born because of jewish extremists in a territory called the Palestinian Mandate in response to british control that caused the league of nations to vote on the issue.

after WWII small jewish resistance groups formed the Unified Jewish Resistance Movement and continued their fight.

the british gov lost resolve nad turned teh issue to the UN, and they then voted to create israel.

the ONLY reason jews got control of thier land was because of resistance and terrorism.

its very common knowledge that israel was born out of terrorism.

there are numerous historical accounts, but people just dont know about pre-1948 history of the region.

but one thing that cant be denied, extreme jewish organizations used terror to remove british rule and get an international rubber stamp for their land.

SirRiff

[Derek]

"Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."-JFK

I think this quote tells you what I think of Israel.

Israel was created to be a democracy in a region there was none. Israel was not born out of terrorism, Many Jewish people owned much of the land that was now Israel because they bought much of it before/during/after WWII

I have visited the National Halocaust Museum in D.C. What the Jews went through is one of the most horrific things ever in the History of the world. They were origionally from that land.

Don't try to tell me, while the Jewish People were being slaughtered, they were also being terrorists.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Derek,

Israel was created out of a country called Palestine by the British and the UN. If you doubt the 'terrorism' statements, look up 'The Stern Gang' and see if there is a link. Also, look up 'Palmach'.

The holocaust was indeed a horrific event. Millions died, not just Jews, but homosexuals, gypsies, Russian POWs, etc. If indeed, 6 million jews died, then millions more were also 'exterminated' at the hands of the Third Reich. This, sadly, is not the worst humans have done throughout history, however. The Chinese lost an estimated 20 million civilians in and around WWII, mostly at the hands of the Japanese. "The Rape of Nanking" is another example of evil run amok.

You are right, though, insofar as that Israel is the most democratic nation in the middle east, and could be a shining example to all, but they are botching it up.

Don't try to tell me, while the Jewish People were being slaughtered, they were also being terrorists.

It (the terrorism) was actually between WWII and the creation of Israel.

[human]

Brainless thing to do on Sharon’s part, to bomb a place in Syria that is suppose to be a so called terrorist camp. I think he ran out of places to bomb in Palestine and Lebanon. Even if it was a terrorist camp. How hard is it to open a new one? The tax base that Syria has or for that matter any country has, bombing a camp will not solve the problem. What's the big deal with opening a new terrorist camp? This strike does not make Israel safer, infact it will only do the opposite. Other side of the coin is events like these do provide good cheap entertainment.

As a matter of fact, communications method in politic sometimes need to be emphasized...

just put it like giving samples in the super market....

And since Asss ad doesn’t like sour tastes (he has sweet tooth), then Israel's message should be well received....

Consequences usually follow the initial message...

He better say thank you, too....

Sharone is a hero....Remember the "DEFRESOIRE" 100km to cairo....?

I do

*************************

The truth taught me to hate her.... I couldn't

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK, and all,

Didn't matter how you got there, you were there and needed to do something fast to not be there.

Not exactly. If I may offer a couple of quotes from 'Intifada', (By Ze'ef Schiff and Ehud Ya'ari, 1987)

"[in Gaza] The amount of cultivated agricultural land is expected to decline by 15% in the coming decade alone. Aggravating  the situation even more is the fact that rather than place state lands at the disposal of the Palestinians, Israel is holding these reserves for the few Jewish settlers in the area-a total of some 2500 people, including 150 yeshivah students. These settlers comprise only 0.4% of the Strip's total population, but have already been awarded 28% of the state lands and are clamoring for more!

Considering this collection of negative trends, with the chance of economic development being nil, as  the Palestinian proletariat grows in size and discontent the persistence of violence is all but assured. Outbursts are likely to follow one upon the next, with rising frequency, because the prime condition for revolt has already become a standard feature of Palestinian life:the inhabitants of Gaza Strip have absolutely nothing to lose."

Here is a quote from the same book about 'collective punishment' (the destruction of the houses of the families of 'terrorists') and it's 'success'.

"I console myself with the thought that this punishment may lessen the violence" remarked a senoir officer who was in charge of dozens of demolition and sealing actions, "but deep in my heart I know that what we are doing will prompt others to react violently against us in revenge."

I do apologize for the lenght of this post, but one last recent quote caught my eye. Sometimes things just jump off the page at you. This quote is from 'Ask the Rabbi', a Q&A site from Arutz Sheva, the Israeli National News. A person asked about the 'occupied territories', and of Syria, Jordan, and the possibility of Israel 'annexing', say, a remote Pacific Island, and whether it would be considered 'holy' to farm there.

After the Land of Israel we are commanded to conquer is in our hands, if we were to conquer and then to sanctify through the Bet Din other lands, these lands would have the halachic status of the Land of Israel regarding the agricultural commandments..

Methinks religious fervor must be checked on all fronts.

[KrustyKidd]

Methinks that they could have done that a long time ago. Also they could have kept the Sinai and moved deeper into Lebanon as well. Also they could have killed every Palistinian and taken all the land. Why give them anything? Instead they talk of peace and offer land. If this is a trick then why not just take all the land? They could.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I think it is a bit incorrect to say that "Israel offers land for peace'. Many Israelis are vehemently opposed to it and Israel is bitterly divided on the issue.

Also they could have killed every Palistinian and taken all the land.

Oddly enough, some Israelis are calling for this. The IDF would have to carry it out though. They seem to be one of the few sane participants in this conflict, however. The IDF has very high moral standards, unlike many of the settlers and some members of the Knesset who are without concern for law and equity, and are only driven by biblical interpretation and, of course, Mammon.

[KrustyKidd]

I agree, many are opposed to it. However, history has shown that Israel does return land once a peace settlement is made. Violent clashes with settlers in the Sinai Penninsula in the eighties are testament to that so it is not to be said that the Governments policy is to keep the land.

An interesting thing has happened with the escalation of suicide attacks and that is that many who were for giving land for peace have now given up on dealing peacefully with Palestinians and moved to the right.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I would agree that many who were once pro-negotiation are fast becoming anti-Palestine. Just as many Arabs who were happy in Israel became involved with the 1987 Intifada from the inside. It seems to be a vicious circle, and circles have no end. Many Israelis and Arabs have co-existed peacefully, yet they are becoming the minority.

According to the dictionary, they are all 'Semites'. Religion has made the ground under their feet 'holy' for different reasons.

[Craig Read]

Israel needs to win its war and depose Arafat [preferably trying him for war crimes or better feeding some bullets into his head]. Syria supported the recent US resolution on having the Yank run Iraq - why ? Because Israel destroyed terrorist training sites 15 km from downtown Damascus. Syria did not back the resolution because the Fascists running it, suddenly converted to liberalism, love of the Jews and a realisation that democracy in Iraq is a good idea. In fact the Syrians are exporting across the Iraqi border scores of terrorists and ne'er do wells. Military power decides the balance of power.

Not hugging trees and crying over equality.

[KrustyKidd]

Well, I guess Israel is taking off the kid gloves. Seems they don’t really give a hoot anymore. In a reversal of attack methods Palestinian terror goons kill a couple of soldiers for a change and Israel in turn offs a few civilllians.

GAZA (Reuters) - Israel killed 10 Palestinians, most of them civilians, in the Gaza Strip on Monday in its heaviest air strikes for months, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon renewed a threat to remove Yasser Arafat.About 100 people were wounded in five air raids over a 12-hour period, including a missile strike after dark on a roadside crowd.The attacks followed an ambush by gunmen in which three Israeli soldiers were killed in the West Bank and the launch of eight makeshift rockets from Gaza into Israel on Sunday.

Oh, and surprise surprise, guess what the Palestinians have to say? Negotiations? Talks on de escalating the violence? Parlays on keeping some things (like civillians) off limits on each sides targeting initiatives? LOL, not a chance. The old familiar vowes of revenge as they are mad now. Before, they were only kinda mad but now they are real mad.

One missile fired by a helicopter gunship hit a car and another slammed into a crowd of people by the road, prompting angry protests and calls for revenge, witnesses said.  "We will avenge your blood," Hamas supporters said through loudspeakers as followers chanted "there is no alternative to bombings" during a funeral march. "The Zionists will soon be sorry when they feel our painful response," they shouted. 

Ooooo, like what are they going to do? Kill Israeli women and children? That would be something new!!

At the scene of course, nobody connects the terrorists car with the damage done. Better not lay any blame where it lies (with the militant that brings death home to his family and neighbors) but rather with the Israelis who track these animals down to where they hide amongst women and children.

"It's a massacre. They slaughtered civilians with no mercy," one protester at the scene said. Blood covered the ground near the car and the wounded lay scattered around the vehicle. The witnesses said all the dead were civilians, although they said the car that was hit was owned by a militant.  The Israeli army said helicopter gunships had chased the car from the border fence with Israel after a group of militants tried to cross into Israel and then fled in the vehicle.

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat accused Sharon of undermining peace. Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie said the air raids would not help efforts to end three years of conflict.  "Most of those killed are civilians. Its the bloodiest and most dangerous escalation in years," Erekat said 

Hmmmm, isn’t that kinda what you guys have been doing to them for decades there Erekat?.

And the good news:

In the heaviest morning raid, a helicopter-fired missile hit a mini-van at a traffic light in densely populated Gaza City, sending pedestrians fleeing in panic. Two Hamas militants were burned to death in the vehicle. One was identified as Khaled al-Masri, a senior member of the militant Islamic group.  Three hours earlier, an Israeli warplane bombed a building next to the home of Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah al-Shami.  The army said it had not been aiming for Shami but had destroyed a Hamas weapons workshop next door after militants fired primitive rockets into southern Israel on Sunday. The fifth strike of the day also hit the same building.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?t...storyID=3651621

[Debo]

Brainless thing to do on Sharon’s part, to bomb a place in Syria that is suppose to be a so called terrorist camp. I think he ran out of places to bomb in Palestine and Lebanon. Even if it was a terrorist camp. How hard is it to open a new one? The tax base that Syria has or for that matter any country has, bombing a camp will not solve the problem. What's the big deal with opening a new terrorist camp? This strike does not make Israel safer, infact it will only do the opposite. Other side of the coin is events like these do provide good cheap entertainment.

What then would you do.

To be sure Syria and all the other terror dogs nations are niether deminished or even crippled over the loss of one training camp, but Sharone was a little smarter than you give him credit. Now Syria knows that they are not as secretive as they thought and, also Israel has shown they are willing to strike anywhere they find the necessity.

[KrustyKidd]

Now Syria knows that they are not as secretive as they thought and, also Israel has shown they are willing to strike anywhere they find the necessity.

Good point and welcome to the forum Debo. Now if we could only get them to send a message to the Palestinians via an 88 milimeter shell in Yasser's cake hole then we might start to get some peace and quiet.

BBTW CknKid, the actual material damage may be negligable or it may be extreme, it would depend on who was in the camp at the time. Janitors or mid to high level operatives teaching. Also on what they were doing, preparing for an attack or just having a pipe of hash.