Israel Defends Itself

[Black Dog]

Please don't call us pinheads when you know nothing.

I don't believe in this "eye for an eye" shit, and i never will. The Jewish People settled the land first. They were removed by the romans in 185 AD. Lets not get into a argument about who was there first, I am clearing the air.

So you'd be okay with turning all of North America back over to the Natives then? What next?

"Israel" was a creation of the United Nations, a post-imperial construct. "Who was there first" is irrelevant.

Israel has everyright to defend itself.

The palestinians need to fight the "correct" way, and not this cowardly "blow myself up for allah" crap. America isn't going to put up with it forever.

35 years of displacement, poverty , opression and humiliation, and you're whining becasue the Palestinians won't fight fair?! WTF?

Israel doesn't want to expand. you have it all wrong. They are one of the VERY FEW nations, commited to wiping terrorists off the face of the planet. Its about time they start taking out camps.

America should be doing this type of stuff also.

Thats where terrorism starts the Fund. Islam Training camps. Taking those off the map=far less terrorists.

Please explain the 600 new settlements in the Occupied Territories and the continued enroachment of the apartheid wall into Palestinian land.

Yes everyone wants peace, but that can't happen when you have the palestinians breaking Cease-fire agreements left and right. You can't have peace when palestinians target civilians.

You can't have peace when you have Fund. Islam. Thats my whole point. There i said it.

Nor can you have peace when you have the long-term, systematic oppression of a population, the use of excessive force against civilians and the continuing practice of collective punishment and so forth.

It's a two way street. Every suicide bomb is a blow to the cause of peace. But then so is every IDF bullet that finds a West Bank Child, or every hellfire missle that slams into an apartment complex. All are acts of terror.

The only democratic country in a sea of slavery, the only prosperous nation in ocean of opppression, is it any wonder we support it?

As it isthe only democracy in the region, I hold Israel to a higher standard than the thugs in Syria, Egypt and so on. they continue to dissapoint.

  Ehud barak was ready to give the Palestinians 97% of their demands... 97% !!!!!!! and what happens? The Palestinians showed their true colours and took their rocks- er-marbles, and walked away... 

The Camp David accord failed because it did not guarantee the minimal conditions for creating a viable Palestinian state, nor did they concede Paleistinian rights vis a vis Jerusalem or adequately address the plight of the Palestinian refugees.

The accord would have carved the PA into a number of bantu states, seperated by the illegal settlements. Thus, the agreement would have offered neither economic viability nor the minimal requirements for a politically independent state.

[KrustyKidd]

As it isthe only democracy in the region, I hold Israel to a higher standard than the thugs in Syria, Egypt and so on. they continue to dissapoint.

Maybe in your books they do. Right now, thanks to your buddies they are under seige fighting for survival. The Palistinians have brought the front line into their living rooms where they shoot up families as part of their "New" effort to get their bloody message of death across. You would react to an immediate threat from people who wish to kill you, your children and family by doing different? Think of what the peaceloving Hamas would do if they were militarily superior to Israel. You know, the guys who have vowed to destroy every Israeli man woman and child. You think you could negotiate with that? Like Neal said, they have shown incredilbe restraint.

[Derek]

So you'd be okay with turning all of North America back over to the Natives then? What next?

"Israel" was a creation of the United Nations, a post-imperial construct. "Who was there first" is irrelevant.

35 years of displacement, poverty , opression and humiliation, and you're whining becasue the Palestinians won't fight fair?! WTF?

Nor can you have peace when you have the long-term, systematic oppression of a population, the use of excessive force against civilians and the continuing practice of collective punishment and so forth.

It's a two way street. Every suicide bomb is a blow to the cause of peace. But then so is every IDF bullet that finds a West Bank Child, or every hellfire missle that slams into an apartment complex. All are acts of terror.

As it isthe only democracy in the region, I hold Israel to a higher standard than the thugs in Syria, Egypt and so on. they continue to dissapoint.

The native american thing is different because we apologized for what we did in the past. We did something bad to the Native americans and we have apologized many times. (now they get "special" treatment)

Also SOME people on this forum are trying to tell me the Palestinians were there first, which is not the case, i was just trying to put in some history.

Exactly, it is irrelevant.

Israel was created by the UN yes, but when some 6 million + jews are killed in 5 years because of Racism i think they deserve their own homeland.

Killing a palestinian boy isn't on purpose, bombing a civilian complex, isn't on purpose (unless of course there are some terrorists inside) Those are accidents, setting off your own bomb strapped to your chest, in a crowded market place IS ON PURPOSE. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT????

Iranian and Syrian terrorist camps have got to go....

Do YOU NOT AGREE?

Palestinians are a bunch of cowards. I don't see jews running up to palestinian SOLDIERS (not civilians) blowing themselves up in the name of god, Do you???

[cknykid]

Do you ever wonder why Zionists hate so much? It is because of a massive guilt complex they have because they crucified their Messiah. They know they are under judgment, and they are mad. Elohim still has them under bondage-- under persecution. They cried regarding the murder of Jesus Christ, "His blood be upon us and our children," and thus it is. Someone must take the brunt of Zionist rage, and the Arabs are simply handy and worthy by reason of proximity. How dare they whine at the world to memorialize the suffering of the Jews in the holocaust?

[cknykid]

It’s no secret that an “Israeli” means a Jew. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are not called Israelis, even if that term fits them legally. We automatically deny the word to non-Jews, because we all know that Israel is for Jews only. And of course most Arabs in Israel don’t think of themselves as “Israelis” and prefer to be called “Palestinians.” The country was called Palestine for many centuries, until the Jewish state was established in 1948. Israel was to be, and still insists it is, a “democracy,” but not necessarily the sort of democracy that is dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. If it were, it would soon cease to exist as a Jewish state. Under the “law of return,” any Jew in the world has the right to come to Israel, even if none of his ancestors ever lived there, and claim Israeli citizenship. So if Seymour Steinberg of Los Angeles ever feels like “returning” to Israel, he can immigrate at any time, with rights denied to non-Jewish natives of the country whose ancestors have always lived there. Not that most Israeli Jews now believe that God gave the Holy Land to the Jews; but since most Jews used to believe it, that somehow gives today’s Jews the right of exclusive possession of it. If you think religion is irrational, take a good look at irreligion. Under Israeli law, non-Jews who left Israel in 1948 or later have no right of return. That they actually lived there once doesn’t help them; their homes have long since been seized for “Israelis.” Israel’s newly elected prime minister, Ariel Sharon, emphatically refuses to consider allowing native non-Jews to come home, because their numbers would swamp the Jews politically and the Jewish state would cease to be Jewish. The Jewish minority would go the way of white South Africans when apartheid was abolished. Israel has been an embarrassing stepchild of the Western world, which is committed to democracy and knows how shameful it would be for a modern democracy to treat Jews as non-Jews are treated by Israel.

[Craig Read]

Your post is an embarassment of anti-semiticism full of racial disfigurations and inaccuracies. You are just another bigot. Did you know that 1/3 of Israel's population is non Jewish and that most Jews are secular Jews from not only Israel but around the world ?

I wonder why your racist drivel is allowed on this forum.

I suggest you go somewhere else to post this nonsense.

Israel is a state, has certain elements of democratic legitimacy, was sanctioned by the UN and the International community, and it has a right to exist, and defend itself. These facts are self evident.

It is being attacked by terrorists funded by Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Until Iraq was invaded it too was funding the war against Israel.

Now Syria wants to further pervert the UNO process by redefining what a terrorist is. Syria is breaking a UN resolution.

Under UN Security Council Security Council Resolution 1373 States are no longer at liberty to serve as a landlord in aiding terrorist groups. Under the mandate they must shut down terrorist financing and training, and arrest or exclude the actors who seek to maim and kill civilians as a political technique.

Of course Syria has announced a rather different standard. In a little-remarked September 2002 Counter-Terrorism Committee filing, Syria reported that it could not regard as terrorism any acts committed in a "legitimate struggle against foreign occupation."

More particularly, Syria has elevated the Arab League convention on terrorism, adopted in Cairo in April 1998, above its obligations to the United Nations. The 1998 convention says that "all cases of struggle by whatever means, including armed struggle, against foreign occupation and aggression for liberation and self-determination, in accordance with principles of international law, shall not be regarded as an offense."

Such is the post modern world. Hypocritical posturing while financing the death of Jews.

Hate the Jews, embrace hypocrites like Syria and France and pervert UN resolutions and processes.

This is why Israel must fight and win its war.

[Black Dog]

The native american thing is different because we apologized for what we did in the past. We did something bad to the Native americans and we have apologized many times. (now they get "special" treatment)

Wow. Your ignorance of history is astonishing. When did we "apologize" for stealing native land and committing systematic cultural genocide? What "special treatment"?

Also SOME people on this forum are trying to tell me the Palestinians were there first, which is not the case, i was just trying to put in some history.

Well, they were.

Exactly, it is irrelevant.

Israel was created by the UN yes, but when some 6 million + jews are killed in 5 years because of Racism i think they deserve their own homeland.

Sure. But pushing the population that was living there out into camps and now practicing methods of ethnic cleansing frighteningly similar to what European Jews experienced in the past is probably not the way to go about it, no?

Killing a palestinian boy isn't on purpose, bombing a civilian complex, isn't on purpose (unless of course there are some terrorists inside) Those are accidents, setting off your own bomb strapped to your chest, in a crowded market place IS ON PURPOSE. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT????

Let me say this nice and slow.

There's.

No.

Fucking.

Difference.

The soldier who levels his rifle at a child hurling rocks at armored vehicles knows full well what will happen when he pulls the trigger. The helicopte rpilot who takes aim at a car on a crowded street in the midst of rush-hour knows what will happen when the rocket strikes its target. Innocents will die. These are not "accidents", but are shrugged off as "collateral damage". Knowing this and then still committing the act places the individuals responsible on the same moral plane as the suicide bombers. Both target innocents.

Iranian and Syrian terrorist camps have got to go....

Do YOU NOT AGREE?

Depends: will the issue be addressed using the rule of law and international standards of conduct or through unilateral acts of aggression?

Palestinians are a bunch of cowards. I don't see jews running up to palestinian SOLDIERS (not civilians) blowing themselves up in the name of god, Do you???

Apprently the material disparity between the IDF and the Palestinian Authority continues to elude you. Why would the Israelis need to blow themselves up when they can deal death from inside tanks, fighter jets and attack helicopters?

Do you ever wonder why Zionists hate so much? It is because of a massive guilt complex they have because they crucified their Messiah.

By the way: cknykid, cut out the racist bullshit. It's crap like that which allows defenders of the state of Israel to label its critics as anti-Semites. We're talking about the actions of a government, not of a race or religion.

Knock it off.

[cknykid]

By the way: cknykid cut out the racist bullshit. Its crap like that which allows defenders of the state of Israel to label its critics as anti-Semites. We're talking about the actions of a government, not of a race or religion.

Knock it off.

What part of my post is racist? Please feel free to point it out. It is your opinion that in the manner the state of Israel is conducting itself in the occupied territories is an action of a government, not of a race or religion. I think otherwise, it is my observation that this whole race is responsible for the ethnic cleansing that is going on until today. They have been funding this ideology of hate and knowingly supported ethnic cleansing. It has been little kids with rocks against tanks gunship helicopters and airplanes for far too long. A suicide bomber is a poor man’s F16. They have been killing innocents for too long and now the playing field is equal. How long young boys and girls of Palestine will keep killing themselves along with innocent Israeli men, women and children? How long as this terrible game of tit for tat will go on? Zionist have a thirst of blood and land and they have built real walls of hatred and animosity which need to be demolished by eliminating the real causes of conflict.

Your post is an embarrassment of anti-semiticism full of racial disfigurations and inaccuracies. You are just another bigot. Did you know that 1/3 of Israel's population is non Jewish and that most Jews are secular Jews from not only Israel but around the world?

Now the village idiot, what part of my post is anti-semi. Please feel free to bring it up. It is getting a little old to hide behind the word anti-semi.

Israel is a state, has certain elements of democratic legitimacy, was sanctioned by the UN and the International community, and it has a right to exist, and defend itself. These facts are self evident.

Ok here you go, you admit yourself Israel has certain elements of democratic legitimacy. Now let me educate you more. Israel is not the sort of democracy that is dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. If it were, it would soon cease to exist as a Jewish state which it is. Under the “law of return,” any Jew in the world has the right to come to Israel, even if none of his ancestors ever lived there, and claim Israeli citizenship. So if Seymour Steinberg of Los Angeles ever feels like “returning” to Israel, he can immigrate at any time, with rights denied to non-Jewish natives of the country whose ancestors have always lived there. Not that most Israeli Jews now believe that God gave the Holy Land to the Jews; but since most Jews used to believe it, that somehow gives today’s Jews the right of exclusive possession of it. If you think religion is irrational, take a good look at irreligion. Under Israeli law, non-Jews who left Israel in 1948 or later have no right of return. That they actually lived there once doesn’t help them; their homes have long since been seized for “Israelis.” Maybe I am wrong, please correct me.

It is being attacked by terrorists funded by Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Until Iraq was invaded it too was funding the war against Israel.

First rule of complaining about terrorism is that you yourself stop being a terrorist. Israel has a long record of human rights violation and ethnic cleansing. How can you defend it? Humor me

it could not regard as terrorism any acts committed in a "legitimate struggle against foreign occupation."

A foreign occupation is a terrorist act in its own. Feel free to explain how taking away people’s freedom is not terrorism and fighting for one’s freedom is terrorism.

[Black Dog]

What part of my post is racist?

Uhm....

Do you ever wonder why Zionists hate so much? It is because of a massive guilt complex they have because they crucified their Messiah. They know they are under judgment, and they are mad. Elohim still has them under bondage-- under persecution. They cried regarding the murder of Jesus Christ, "His blood be upon us and our children," and thus it is. Someone must take the brunt of Zionist rage, and the Arabs are simply handy and worthy by reason of proximity. How dare they whine at the world to memorialize the suffering of the Jews in the holocaust?

...it is my observation that this whole race is responsible for the ethnic cleansing that is going on until today. They have been funding this ideology of hate and knowingly supported ethnic cleansing

There are many progressive Jewish (and Zionist) groups and individuals who are fighting hard against the actions of their government (like the militarty refuseniks who risk jail by refusing to serve in the OT).

See?

Your smears paint them with the same brush as the war criminal Sharon and his hawkish ilk. Do you see now how slandering the entire race is ultimately counterproductive to the cause of peace?

Zionist have a thirst of blood and land and they have built real walls of hatred and animosity which need to be demolished by eliminating the real causes of conflict.

That's a straw man generalization that certainly borders on outright bigiotry (the blood libel). besides: what's your definition of a Zionist?

[FastNed]

cknykid - after looking over your posts, I'm not going to give my usual welcome to the Forum. You have mental health issues.

For Fifty years, the Arab world has attempted to crush Israel; every war they have begun, they have had their ass kicked and lost more territory. Perhaps that's why the no longer start wars with Israel - Israel would end up larger than Europe.

Now the "Palestinian" people - Jordanians, by the way - have been used as pawns by the Arab Leaders for these same fifty years. They are such losers they have become the Jews of the Arab World - no other Arab country will give them house room or admit them. They never miss a chance to "Miss a chance!"

Israel has no chance to stop terrorism so long as it abides by the Oslo Accords. It must denounce them, drive the Palestinians out of the area, back into Lebanon and then let Syria deal with them.

If, as and when Israel adopts America's policy on terrorists - there is NO refuge - then and only then will terrorism end; when the cost is too high to those who sponsor it, it will cease. Yes, I agree that America is one of those who has handcuffed Israel but the must have the courage to tell the American politicians to stuff it, even if it means going it on their own!

[cknykid]

There are many progressive Jewish (and Zionist) groups and individuals who are fighting hard against the actions of their government (like the military refuseniks who risk jail by refusing to serve in the OT).

This post puts a smile on my face. Progressive Jewish and Zionist groups are a little amusing. You forgot to mention the reserve air force pilots who refused to bomb civilian targets. So this makes it many progressive Jewish groups and individuals who are fighting hard against the action of their government. It’s more like nothing. The steal land and ethnic cleaning policies is not just the ideology of war criminal Sharon and his religious fanatic cabinet but also the brainchild of demented Zionist thinkers all around the world. Who believe in the idea of a greater Israel in light of twisted religious ideology. Israel is a dream where these frenzied people have gained control and are out for blood to make these dreams come true. These religious nuts openly proclaim a Jewish-supremacist ideology and acknowledge their readiness to use violence against those who disagree with them. With a well-documented record of bigotry and crime, they pose a serious danger to every society, and to men and women everywhere who treasure freedom.

See?

Your smears paint them with the same brush as the war criminal Sharon and his hawkish ilk. Do you see now how slandering the entire race is ultimately counterproductive to the cause of peace?

A war begun by Israel against a "Palestinian" enemy -- an entire people is a war that is instilling total fear, insecurity, terror and death to a total population. How can there be peace when every moral measure of every action of a demented religious sect is in the light of, Is it good for the Jews and they believe in a religious ideology which tells them of "the Jewish People" as "special, chosen, holy and supreme.

What’s your definition of a Zionist?

Any Jew that believe and participates in plans in which they contend to take over the world by means of terrorism, means the application of which we have been witnessing on Palestinian soil ever since the first Zionist Jews set foot there earlier in this century. They have an agenda to make sure all agents of all the countries of the world will either be Jews or of Jews' making. As for the religious foundations for violence and terrorism, this may be seen clearly in the following quotation from the Old Testament: "And when you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it, and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. Thus shall you do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here? But in the cities of the peoples that the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes." (4)

Thus, the Jews have found inspiration for their terrorist policies in the Torah itself. The Old Testament is filled, in fact, with verses which foment such behavior, with commands to employ the most extreme forms of violence against the enemy, including brutal measures such as striking cities with the sword, communal punishment, and mass annihilation. We read that "barbaric measures must descend to the lowest depths of bestiality, calling for their [enemies'] children to be dashed against the rocks, for their houses to be looted, their women to be ravished, and for them not to have mercy upon the fruit of a woman's womb or take compassion upon her children" (5). And perhaps what has happened and what continues to happen to the Palestinians is the most irrefutable evidence of the continuation of this very policy.

Modern-day Zionist thought bears major responsibility for this continuation due its unreasoned, subjective attitude toward the genocide campaigns being carried out by Israeli authorities against the Arab minority [in the occupied Arab lands. Such campaigns are inconsistent with the most basic human rights and values, values and rights recognized by the international community and according to which, "every human being has the natural right to life.

cknykid - after looking over your posts, I'm not going to give my usual welcome to the Forum. You have mental health issues.

It’s ok. No love lost.

[Craig Read]

Ned i would agree. The kid is a little out of line.

In a conflict both sides can point to wrongs - but the premise of the PLA and the Arab League is to eradicate Israel. This philosophy does not flow the other way. The Jews want to be left alone and left to their state. The Arabs on the other hand, instead of building modern societies wage a pointless war against a more advanced and enlightened civilisation. To abet their cause they also use UN refugee camps to find their crusaders [these were suppose to be temporary camps in 1948 !], and the UN process of condemnation via UNHRC, UN SC, and other organs. This use of the UN to keep alive terror makes the UNO in my view an entirely besotten organisation.

It is hard to believe that Syria is actually on the UN security council. This alone makes the need for UN reform rather obvious.

[Black Dog]

From on eextreme to the other....

For Fifty years, the Arab world has attempted to crush Israel; every war they have begun, they have had their ass kicked and lost more territory. Perhaps that's why the no longer start wars with Israel - Israel would end up larger than Europe.

Yeah, except for the wars (like 1967) which Israel starts. Plus, when was the last Arab-israeli war?

Now the "Palestinian" people - Jordanians, by the way - have been used as pawns by the Arab Leaders for these same fifty years. They are such losers they have become the Jews of the Arab World - no other Arab country will give them house room or admit them. They never miss a chance to "Miss a chance!"

All the more reason to kick them around, then? What are you getting at?

(Oh yeah: denial of the identity of the Palestinian people may make the ethinc cleansing go down easy for the likes of you, but that doesn't make it right.)

Israel has no chance to stop terrorism so long as it abides by the Oslo Accords. It must denounce them, drive the Palestinians out of the area, back into Lebanon and then let Syria deal with them.

Yeah because one Arab is good as another to you, eh? You apologists for terror turn my stomach.

If, as and when Israel adopts America's policy on terrorists - there is NO refuge - then and only then will terrorism end; when the cost is too high to those who sponsor it, it will cease.

Uh huh.

Any Jew that believe and participates in plans in which they contend to take over the world by means of terrorism, means the application of which we have been witnessing on Palestinian soil ever since the first Zionist Jews set foot there earlier in this century

cknykid, I'll not give you much of my time as you're not worth it and probably won't be around here much longer, but your rancid crap about "Jews taking over the world" is classic racist nonsense. You have no understanding of the many permutations of Zionist thought. This debate is divisive enough without you poisonming it with your racist diatribes.

Keep it up and it'll be my pleassure to recomend you get tossed.

[Hugo]

Yeah, except for the wars (like 1967) which Israel starts.

Israel fired the first shots in 1967, after:

1) Egypt suddenly and without explanation moved large numbers of troops into Sinai three weeks previously

2) The United Nations peacekeepers between Israel and Egypt were withdrawn a few days later at the insistence of Nasser

3) The Egyptian navy blocked the Straits of Tiran and prevented the passage of any Israeli shipping into or out of the Gulf of Eilat about a week before open hostilities commenced

4) Israel was facing a sudden increase of hostile Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi troops on its borders to the effect that it was outnumbered 3 to 1.

Pretend you're Moshe Dayan for a second. The Arabs have launched two wars of aggression against your nation in recent memory and have sworn to destroy you. Now you are witnessing a massive mobilisation of Arab armies on all of your borders. What would you do?

[Derek]

Wow. Your ignorance of history is astonishing. When did we "apologize" for stealing native land and committing systematic cultural genocide? What "special treatment"?

Wow your ignorance of history is astonishing.

If you knew anything about what is happening in my state south dakota, colorado, etc. you would have changed that right away. Reservations, and Native Americans who are free from taxes start up Gas Stations casinos, tobacco stores, liquor stores, etc. etc.

The can lower prices on the gas they sell, because they don't have to pay a tax.

At heritage express (a native american owned gas station chain) can sell gas for almost 15 cents cheaper in most places. (that is not fair to other gas stations)

Native americans in most cases are lazy. As far as what i see. Which, is them, in their "reservation" drinking beer, getting drunk not having a job, getting welfare and wasting their lives with the government money. These are by far some of the poorest towns in the country. In the reservations, im not generalizing, i have seen it in many different ones i have been in. You would think we were living in a third world country.

Well, they were.

How bout you back this up, instead of just saying Palestine was there first. No they weren't. You just won't accept the fact you are wrong. Don't say they were there before Israel was created because the Jewish people were there, when the whole area was primarily Jewish.

Kinda Ironic.

Liberals bitch about how palestine was there first, yet Israel more than 1500 years earlier was, misplaced, by the romans. When you say the Israelis are misplacing the palestinians. Haha this made me laugh.

Depends: will the issue be addressed using the rule of law and international standards of conduct or through unilateral acts of aggression?

Well, i doubt it will be done peacefully, trust me i wish it could, but it can't when you have terrorism there.

Apprently the material disparity between the IDF and the Palestinian Authority continues to elude you. Why would the Israelis need to blow themselves up when they can deal death from inside tanks, fighter jets and attack helicopters?

Well, RPGs are pretty powerful if fired accurately, they can take down helicopters. Plus suicide bombing isn't going to be taking out fighter jets, in the air, tanks etc. RPGs are more effective than suicide bombing.

Plus you don't WASTE manpower

[Black Dog]

Native americans in most cases are lazy. As far as what i see. Which, is them, in their "reservation" drinking beer, getting drunk not having a job, getting welfare and wasting their lives with the government money. These are by far some of the poorest towns in the country. In the reservations, im not generalizing, i have seen it in many different ones i have been in. You would think we were living in a third world country.

I'd like to see how you'd manage if I stole your land, slaughtered your people, forced the survivors to live in tiny, impoverished reservations for generations. Somehow cheap gas and smokes doesn't seem like adequate compensation for basic human dignity.

How bout you back this up, instead of just saying Palestine was there first. No they weren't. You just won't accept the fact you are wrong. Don't say they were there before Israel was created because the Jewish people were there, when the whole area was primarily Jewish.

Uh...what?

Okay let me wade through the garbled syntax and try to find the meat. I don't have time to do any leg work on the populationmak eup of pre-1948 palestinian Mandate, but I will get to it..

Liberals bitch about how palestine was there first, yet Israel more than 1500 years earlier was, misplaced, by the romans. When you say the Israelis are misplacing the palestinians. Haha this made me laugh.

And the y took it from the Hashemites and so forth. Big deal.

Well, RPGs are pretty powerful if fired accurately, they can take down helicopters. Plus suicide bombing isn't going to be taking out fighter jets, in the air, tanks etc. RPGs are more effective than suicide bombing.

Plus you don't WASTE manpower

Go sell the PA some RPGs then we can talk.

[Derek]

I don't get that last part Black Dog.

The Native American thing is way different than palestinians. First people have changed since then. The Israelis never put Palestinians in a reservation(liberals would say yea they did).

Too bad you can't see the difference, just the way you can't see the FUCKING DIFFERENCE between terrorism and defending a country.

Comparing the Palestinians to the Native Americans, is ludicris. The native american's plight was a bad thing. Yes almost everyone in america accepts that.

The Palestinians, have resorted to underhand shit, killing civilians, killing because they think it will bring back their land. No they are Racists.

I guarentee, if they hadn't resorted to Terrorism, there would be progress in that region.

Palestians, and Arab countries started it. Israel will end it.

As for the land factor....Spoils of war.

palestinians have got to get their shit together and stop the terrorism.

Killing Civilians isn't the answer.

Israel has had its mistakes, im not saying they are 100 percent innocent, But Palestine right now is defintely the problem right now

[SirRiff]

Do you ever wonder why Zionists hate so much? It is because of a massive guilt complex they have because they crucified their Messiah. They know they are under judgment, and they are mad. Elohim still has them under bondage-- under persecution. They cried regarding the murder of Jesus Christ, "His blood be upon us and our children," and thus it is. Someone must take the brunt of Zionist rage, and the Arabs are simply handy and worthy by reason of proximity. How dare they whine at the world to memorialize the suffering of the Jews in the holocaust?

uh, i dont think this cknykid post is racist. considering Isreal is occupying arab land and killing people on a daily basis i dont think some harsh words are unfounded.

not to say its one sided, the same could be said of the arab terrorists.

but either way, when people kill each other constantly for years, some harsh words pale in comparison.

its funny that some people are bashing the hate speech bill on another thread, then telling cknykid he is racist for what he says here.

SirRiff

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Derek,

Please try to keep expletives to a minimum, often adjectives will suffice.

Have you ever heard the term 'wagon-burners' used to describe 'natives'? How about, 'circle the wagons'? Those pesky 'native americans' used to attack 'settlers' (which would now, in the occupied territotries, be construed as terrorism) to try to defend their lands against invasion/occupation.

I do not think this analogy is far off the mark. If one goes back far enough in history, the Caananites have first claim to 'Israel'. Then whom?

As for the land factor....Spoils of war.

That is a precedent we as humans should desire to leave behind.

[Black Dog]

I don't get that last part Black Dog.

The Native American thing is way different than palestinians. First people have changed since then. The Israelis never put Palestinians in a reservation(liberals would say yea they did).

Ummm...refugee camps? Hello?

Too bad you can't see the difference, just the way you can't see the FUCKING DIFFERENCE between terrorism and defending a country.

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Comparing the Palestinians to the Native Americans, is ludicris. The native american's plight was a bad thing. Yes almost everyone in america accepts that.

The Palestinians, have resorted to underhand shit, killing civilians, killing because they think it will bring back their land. No they are Racists.

First: blanket generalizations about races ain't cool. It's not cool when people like cknykid do it about Jews and it ain't cool when you do it about palestinians.

As for Native Americans, people were condemning the likes of Sitting Bull and Geronimo for being terrorists back in their day. But the whol Native thing is a digresson anyway.

I guarentee, if they hadn't resorted to Terrorism, there would be progress in that region.

Terrorism is the last weapon of the desperate and the alienated.

Palestians, and Arab countries started it. Israel will end it.As for the land factor....Spoils of war.

Israel has been repeatedly censured for its continued occupation of the OT. (That's illegal occupation, BTW)

palestinians have got to get their shit together and stop the terrorism.

Killing Civilians isn't the answer.

Israel has had its mistakes, im not saying they are 100 percent innocent, But Palestine right now is defintely the problem right now

Israel could end most terrorism against it with a stroke of a pen: by withdrawing from the OT, dismantling the settlements and by assisting in the development of a cohesive civil society in Palestine. Contrary to the rabid propaganda you mighht devour, Israel's back is not against the wall, nor is its survival at stake (at least in the literal sense of the word). Israel is killing Palestinians of all stripes at a rate that Hamas and their ilk could only dream about. The ball is in israel's court, yet they choose to continue their aggressive, expansionist policies, all wrapped up under the guise of "the war on terror". And you suckers buy it hook, line and sinker.

[Derek]

Israel could end most terrorism against it with a stroke of a pen: by withdrawing from the OT, dismantling the settlements and by assisting in the development of a cohesive civil society in Palestine. Contrary to the rabid propaganda you mighht devour, Israel's back is not against the wall, nor is its survival at stake (at least in the literal sense of the word). Israel is killing Palestinians of all stripes at a rate that Hamas and their ilk could only dream about. The ball is in israel's court, yet they choose to continue their aggressive, expansionist policies, all wrapped up under the guise of "the war on terror". And you suckers buy it hook, line and sinker.

You really think that the terrorism would stop, wow you are really ignorant. No, Im sorry that It sounded like i said all Palestinians are racists, I should have said all Terrorists in that region are racists towards Israel (which would include a considerable amount of Palestinians)

So Black dog, if Israel gave up all that crap, you really think the terroism would stop there, no more terrorism.

No Hamas has got to go, Arafat has got to go, then we can have peace. Terrorism is the Problem there,

Yea you, and leftwingers like you have really tried to put the US down for supporting the Contra/Iranian stuff.

Here is my view of terrorism:

Terrorism, is targeting civilians using underhand tactics such as blowing yourself up. Terrorism is Killing many innocents, thinking it will bring down Christianity, blah blah blah blah blah. Terrorism=the worst form of racism, killing because of their religion.

Here is my take on the Freedom fighter:

A freedom fighter is a person fighting for their country, region etc. for independence.

You would think Palestine would have a valid argument with this, but you have freedom fighters mixed in with terrorism, who support terrorists. Then that makes them all terrorists.

The fact is Freedom fighters don't fight because of racism and terrorists fight because of racism.

It mostly boils down to that.

[FastNed]

Black Dog, you are so naive it is pathetic!

Israel offered peace and it was thrown back in their face by Arafat. Unless and until the Palestinian people rid themselves of the delusion (and the leadership) which is that they can drive the Israeli's out of the Middle East, there will be no peace. The Jews are quite through with standing quietly in line awaiting their turn in the Gas Chambers. Does "Never Again!" sound familiar?

The Palestinians have not complied with their obligations under the Oslo Accords and Israel should denounce them, and then revert to the Status Quo Ante .

[Black Dog]

So Black dog, if Israel gave up all that crap, you really think the terroism would stop there, no more terrorism.

No Hamas has got to go, Arafat has got to go, then we can have peace.

No no no. Of course terrorism wouldn't stop overnight, as the more extremist elements will continue to oppose Israel's very existence. The key to curtailing terrorism is to drain the swamp. Terrorism and anti-Israel sentiment is fueled by the continuing plight of the Palestinian people, including the use of excessive force and collective punishment by Israeli forces.

Simply killing every suspected militant you can get your hands on (especially with the disregard the IDF shows for civilians when conducting their assasination operations) won't do a damn thing to improve the situation. For every militant Israel makes a martyr of, more will spring up. Why? Because you can can't kill an idea or a cause.

If Israel spent more energy on aiding th ePalestinian people in keeping order and bettering their society instead of bulldozing homes and shooting at ambulances, popular support for militant causes would, eventually, dry up.

Terrorism is the Problem there

Nothing exists in a vacum. While it may be nice and simple to think terrorists simply wake up one morning and then decide to blow themselves up on a bus, that's not the way the world works. (I find it interesting that the more militant Israel apologists share the same black-and-white, good-and-evil mentality with the terrorists they hate. Odd.)

Yea you, and leftwingers like you have really tried to put the US down for supporting the Contra/Iranian stuff.

Non sequiter.

Here is my view of terrorism:

Terrorism, is targeting civilians using underhand tactics such as blowing yourself up. Terrorism is Killing many innocents, thinking it will bring down Christianity, blah blah blah blah blah. Terrorism=the worst form of racism, killing because of their religion.

Then you really need to read more. Start with a dictionary.

terrorism: n. the policy of repressive governments, guerillas etc. of using hijackings, kidnappings, assasinations, etc. as a means to acheive political ends.

Terrorism is not predicated on a specific religion or ideology. Nor is terror restricted to killing of civilians. It's a tactic.

Here is my take on the Freedom fighter:

A freedom fighter is a person fighting for their country, region etc. for independence.

You would think Palestine would have a valid argument with this, but you have freedom fighters mixed in with terrorism, who support terrorists. Then that makes them all terrorists.

The fact is Freedom fighters don't fight because of racism and terrorists fight because of racism.

It mostly boils down to that.

So if you kill civilians because you are fighting for your country's independence, you are afreedom fighter. But if you shout "Allah akbar" while doing it, you're a terrorist?

Israel offered peace and it was thrown back in their face by Arafat. Unless and until the Palestinian people rid themselves of the delusion (and the leadership) which is that they can drive the Israeli's out of the Middle East, there will be no peace. The Jews are quite through with standing quietly in line awaiting their turn in the Gas Chambers. Does "Never Again!" sound familiar?

I've already rebutted your allegations that the Camp David accord was a legitimate peace offer, so I won't go ove rit again. However, I do bristle every time the suffering and horror of the Holocaust is invoked to justify the suffering and horror of the illegal occuopation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. As I've said before: the survival of the state of Israel is not in question (most of its former foes, including the PLO, have acknowleged its right to exist).

[Derek]

terrorism: n. the policy of repressive governments, guerillas etc. of using hijackings, kidnappings, assasinations, etc. as a means to acheive political ends.

Terrorism is not predicated on a specific religion or ideology. Nor is terror restricted to killing of civilians. It's a tactic.

Well this will be my last post addressed to you on this thread.

Since your posts just bring me to reiterate my points.

I disagree majorly with you here

Terrorists should be shot. Anybody who supports the killing of innocent civilians over racism should be dragged out in the street and beaten.

Plus, i never said THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF TERRORISM,

I said it was my view, you may have another, don't try and turn something into what it is not.

Plus, i wan't to know what dictionary you got that from, because "as a means to acheive political ends." wow, thats a horrible definition of terrorism.

Please terrorism is way more than hijackings kidnappings,assasinations, etc. Its killing someone because of racism. Thats what it is. It can be used for a political gain but it rarely ever is.

THE FACT IS TERRORISM HAS GOT TO GO!

I ask you again, do you not agree?

[Black Dog]

Plus, i wan't to know what dictionary you got that from, because "as a means to acheive political ends." wow, thats a horrible definition of terrorism.

I got it from, I believe, Webster's, though that's the commonly accepted definition of terrorism.

Its killing someone because of racism. Thats what it is. It can be used for a political gain but it rarely ever is.

Terrorism-and I can't understand why this is so hard for you to process- is not necessarily racially, religiously or ideologically motivated. As for political gains made through terrorism, well, without terrorism there'd be no America (the revolutionaries were considered terrorists), and certainly no Israel (Jewish paramilitary groups conducted terrorist operations including bombing hotels and other civilian targets to oust the British).

THE FACT IS TERRORISM HAS GOT TO GO!

I agree but add the caveat that state terrorism used to maintain a system of inequality and oppression, as the practiced by the IDF in the Occupied Territories, must also cease.