White poppies

[geoffrey]

I'm sure BD would be proud to express that view under a Nazi regime too... I mean, fighting WWII was

Forget about the Second World War. Do you know why we had the First World War? the war that the war-mongers had the despicable gall to call the War To End All Wars?

Until you can honestly answer why we had the First World War, you are missing the point.

I don't really see your point. WWI was still a defensive war. Germany was an agressive power that needed to be dealt with.

Go tell that to a vet's face. If you've got the heart to do it, your a real peice of work.

If I came across a First World War vet who suffered a mustard gas attack and lived, I would proudly tell him that I am sorry.

Could you repeat your comment to him that his pain was essientially a big waste of time?

[Argus]

The red poppy says "we honor your sacrifice for this country", and the white poppy says "what you did was wrong. fighting was wrong. it was a crime." If that's not a direct contradiction, it's close enough for my tastes.

Saying war is wrong and a crime is not an indictment of those who fight.

Indirectly, of course it is. If all war is a crime against humanity, then all those veterans are war criminals. All those who are honoured by wearing the red poppy, are condemned by wearing the white poppy. The designers of the white poppy would probably look at veterans parading past and, with a curled lip, dismiss them all as murderers.

The white poppy is a symbol of stupid.

[Canadian Blue]

On Remembrance Day, I do not feel pride. I feel sorrow for the young men who were forced to defend the greed of merchants by killing other young men they did not know. I also feel profound shame that we would hide the most heinous form of slavery behind patriotism.

Yeah World War 2, man what a useless war. Same with the Korean War. Honestly do you think the men that died in World War 2 and the Korean War were supporting the most heinous form of slavery. This just shows complete ignorance towards Canadian history.

[crazymf]

Canadian Blue....very interesting name. Two different beers made by two competing beer companies that somehow wind up tasting the same. Hmm....interesting..

Ok, never mind me, back to the thread...

[Black Dog]

It's really distressing that people have the nerve to tell the vets their brothers (and sisters) that were out there fighting with them died for a ridiculous cause or as BD put it in vein.

I understand why you can't be rational. We tell ourselves lies all the time to make things easier. Saying someone died "for freedom", for the King, for the glory of the socialist revolution, for the thousand year Reich or whatever glorious cause is the only way nations can convince more young men and women to give up their lives.

Anyone who says a soldier, I don't care from what army, "died for ____" doesn't know a lick about war, about history or about fighting men. You only hear that shit from people who've never tastsed combat. Ask a vet, they'll tell you they were doing a job, they were fighting for their buddies, they were just trying to stay alive.

And yeah, many deaths are pointless and in vain. That's war.

I'm sure BD would be proud to express that view under a Nazi regime too... I mean, fighting WWII was ridiculous and all those alternatives (that were tried and failed) were so much better. Right BD? Peace and rolling over for the tyrants is the best way to do business?

WW2 was the rare case where there was genuine evil unleashed on the world that threatened civilization itself. We could go another thousand years and nver see its like again. That doesn't prove a thing.

I don't really see your point. WWI was still a defensive war. Germany was an agressive power that needed to be dealt with.

Germany didn't start World War 1. Try learning some history before you run your yap.

Could you repeat your comment to him that his pain was essientially a big waste of time?

When all else fails, play the emotion card, eh. Well, hey, I'd love to put you in a time machine and put you face to face with some 19 year old farm boy from Saskatchewan lying in a muddy shell hole on some blighted French field, choking on gas and hearing the screams of his dying mates around him so that you can say, as his lungs fill with fluid and his eyes fill with terror, that his death to gain a square foot of chalk was worthwhile. Don't tell him that the war he's dying in would lead to even greater horrors just over 20 years later.

Indirectly, of course it is. If all war is a crime against humanity, then all those veterans are war criminals. All those who are honoured by wearing the red poppy, are condemned by wearing the white poppy. The designers of the white poppy would probably look at veterans parading past and, with a curled lip, dismiss them all as murderers.

Nice try, applying the legal term "crime against humanity" to what is obviously a colloquiallism. Maybe you can back up your claim about the creator's intentions (assuming you know anything about who they were).

[kimmy]

Until the rest of the world gets on the peace train, you can at least understand why I reject the idea that going to war is never justified, right?

Every war ever fought started was justified in the minds of those who started it, no?

So what's your point?

Hitler thought going to war for liebensraum was justified. Kimmy thinks that armed intervention to stop the slaughter in Rwanda or East Timor would have been justified, or that armed intervention to stop the slaughter in Darfur would be justified.

While I guess it's subjective, I don't think that just because me and Adolf both believe our causes are justified puts both causes on equal moral footing.

On Remembrance Day, I do not feel pride. I feel sorrow for the young men who were forced to defend the greed of merchants by killing other young men they did not know. I also feel profound shame that we would hide the most heinous form of slavery behind patriotism.

Beautifully put, CA.

Really? I thought it was kind of melodramatic and maudlin.

As Canadians, how many wars have we participated in that have been for the benefit of "greedy merchants"? Let's hear it. Reel 'em off.

-k

[Canadian Blue]

Canadian Blue....very interesting name. Two different beers made by two competing beer companies that somehow wind up tasting the same. Hmm....interesting..

I like Grasshopper, and I usually go for Sleeman's Honey Brown. Sometimes I'll go with either one, or a rum and coke. Anyways...........

I understand why you can't be rational. We tell ourselves lies all the time to make things easier. Saying someone died "for freedom", for the King, for the glory of the socialist revolution, for the thousand year Reich or whatever glorious cause is the only way nations can convince more young men and women to give up their lives.

Anyone who says a soldier, I don't care from what army, "died for ____" doesn't know a lick about war, about history or about fighting men. You only hear that shit from people who've never tastsed combat. Ask a vet, they'll tell you they were doing a job, they were fighting for their buddies, they were just trying to stay alive.

And yeah, many deaths are pointless and in vain. That's war.

Actually you do have a point, I haven't heard many soldiers talk about how they fought for freedom. I haven't yet tasted combat, and have no idea of what combat is like. However I realize talking about fighting for freedom won't seem the same when bullets are flying over your head. At the same time though we don't live in a peaceful world. Unfortunately in order to face people like Hitler we need to fight, no matter how determined we are to have peace. We should intervene in certain instances to help those in need and stop genocide. All of the western world could give up war alltogether, however how would this last when their are still people out their hellbent on creating misery and suffering.

At the same time we must remember how World War 2 started. Intervention is needed when a country invades another independant nation, especially if the independant nation is peaceful. We saw what happened when world leaders did everything possible to have "peace for our time".

[Argus]

Until the rest of the world gets on the peace train, you can at least understand why I reject the idea that going to war is never justified, right?

Every war ever fought started was justified in the minds of those who started it, no?

Does that imply that none of them actually WERE justified?

On Remembrance Day, I do not feel pride. I feel sorrow for the young men who were forced to defend the greed of merchants by killing other young men they did not know. I also feel profound shame that we would hide the most heinous form of slavery behind patriotism.

Beautifully put, CA.

Oh yes, war is just a capitalist plot. Why, if we could only do away with capitalism there'd be no war. Communist states are the model of peace and good will, after all. They'd NEVER go to war with anyone.

[bradco]

"Germany didn't start World War 1. Try learning some history before you run your yap."

That is a false statement coming from reading way to much revisionism. Germany deserves blame for the coming of world war 1.

The Balkan dispute was used by Germany to lead the world into war as they wanted a "preventive showdown" with France and Russia. The feeling was that time was running out for a chance at military dominance and the Germans felt vulnerable from the Franco-Russian alliance in 1894 and their encirclement. The war had to come before Russia's strength had increased or they would be faced with a difficult war on two fronts.

The Germans encouraged Austria-Hungary into not accepting peace. Without German assurances of coming to their aid Austria-Hungary would never have touched Serbia. Right here, Germany had a golden opportunity to ensure peace. However, peace was not what they wanted. They encouraged the Austrian-Hungarian regime to send an ultimatum to Serbia that was harsh enough that it could not be accepted. I urge you to see the work of Fritz Fischer (a German) who was the leading historian criticing the revisionist movement.

[Wilber]

I seem to remember that one reason the poppy was chosen to honour those who fell was because it often seemed to be the only living thing in No Mans Land. I think that to use it for anything other than to honour those people on the day that is reserved for that purpose is disrespectfull.