"This is akin to the NEP"

[hiti]

John Brussa, the architect of the first energy trust, says some Conservatives are tearing up party memberships in protest.

"This is akin to the NEP," said Brussa, a director of Progress Energy Trust, chairman of Penn West Energy Trust and partner with Burnet, Duckworth and Palmer in Calgary.

"It's a bunch of people in Ottawa making decisions that severely affect peoples' lives here," he said.

The oil industry fears they are now vulnerable to takeovers by American companies. This move of a revised NEP by Harper is damaging to all small energy business in Alberta.

Flaherty should listen to Liberal finance critic John McCallum. He says that existing income trusts should be grandfathered while putting a hold on any further income trusts being formed. Flaherty would also have been wise to consult the Liberal paper on September 8, 2005 regarding consultations on IT instead of just kicking dirt in the face of the Alberta energy sector.

"We launched consultations because of our concern about how the increased use of this type of business vehicle may affect economic growth," said Minister Goodale. "We have a viable and productive corporate sector that invests, creates jobs and contributes its fair share of tax. I want to make sure that government tax revenues are appropriately safeguarded, but even more importantly I want strong and vibrant Canadian enterprises of all sizes in all sectors contributing to a dynamic and growing economy." In the end Ralph Goodale's announcement was good news for income trust investors -- and those who buy dividend-paying stocks. He reversed his earlier plan to possibly tax the trusts. He also decided to cut taxes on dividends, to help dividend-paying stocks look as attractive to investors as the popular income trusts do.

The lying Tory's hammered the Liberals during this period with crys of taxing seniors, blah, blah, blah and their promise of never taxing income trusts, which many seniors use the income of to pay living expenses. Also luring many seniors to invest their savings into income trust thinking that their hard work paid off and they could enjoy their retirement in peace with a Con government.

IN THEIR OWN WORDS...

'We are supporters of income trusts and we oppose tax measures that would raise taxes on income trusts.' Conservative finance critic Monte Solberg Jan. 12, 2006

'A Conservative government will: . . . Stop the Liberal attack on retirement savings and preserve income trusts by not imposing any new taxes on them.' Conservative federal election platform Jan. 13, 2006

Taxes lost by corporations paying their earnings into income trust amount to around $800 million. Not much when comparing the federal surplus to be $13 billion last year and already $6 billion this year.

[geoffrey]

I don't think it's as much an attack as the NEP, but it's yet another example of the East thinking they know whats best for the West... which every time they try, they've failed miserably.

The NEP prevented a Liberal from being elected in Calgary in nearly 30 years now. Not a single Liberal was elected in Alberta last election, eliminating their national party status. Will the same happen to the CPC because of this... not likely. Income Trusts and their taxation is above the average individuals understanding of things, they don't get what's happening, and the CPC can spin it well.

Do you really think that Albertans will go back to the NEP party in protest of Income Trusts? Unlikely.

I am going to give up my CPC membership at the end of the year, they have moved away from a fiscally responsibile right wing party to the typical tax and spend attitude we've seen in Ottawa. There is no justification to tax increases when your running a $13b surplus, ever.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The NEP wasn't truly in the best interest of the country. A decision that *devastated* the major industry in Alberta in favour of marginal benefits to the rest of the country isn't such a good thing.

The income trust decision is. The benefits to the

If the best people can come up with out of this decision is it will *hurt* the Conservatives in Alberta ... it's pretty sad.

What are the alternatives Alberta Tory voters DO have?

[geoffrey]

Let Income Trusts continue and it make a politically sustainable first step to modernising our corporate taxation system.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Let Income Trusts continue and it make a politically sustainable first step to modernising our corporate taxation system.

what? 'a politically sustainable first step to modernizing our corporate taxation system?

what does that mean?

[August1991]

John Brussa, the architect of the first energy trust, says some Conservatives are tearing up party memberships in protest.

"This is akin to the NEP," said Brussa, a director of Progress Energy Trust, chairman of Penn West Energy Trust and partner with Burnet, Duckworth and Palmer in Calgary.

"It's a bunch of people in Ottawa making decisions that severely affect peoples' lives here," he said.

The Prime Minister comes from Calgary and he's clueless about Alberta. Right.

If this guy wants to pursue this argument, he can go ahead. But he's going to look ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the country.

The oil industry fears they are now vulnerable to takeovers by American companies. This move of a revised NEP by Harper is damaging to all small energy business in Alberta.

Cry me a river. On one hand, they say Ottawa doesn't understand them and then in the next, they ask for Ottawa's protection.

Flaherty should listen to Liberal finance critic John McCallum. He says that existing income trusts should be grandfathered while putting a hold on any further income trusts being formed. Flaherty would also have been wise to consult the Liberal paper on September 8, 2005 regarding consultations on IT instead of just kicking dirt in the face of the Alberta energy sector.

They got four years, that's more than enough.

We can't have a permanent imbalance between two sets of companies in the country. Think of the consequences. Our tax law is already complicated enough.

----

If we can fault Harper, it was for making the promise in the first place. His wiggle room is that the promise he made in the campaign was to protect seniors' savings. He's done that.

[geoffrey]

Let Income Trusts continue and it make a politically sustainable first step to modernising our corporate taxation system.

what? 'a politically sustainable first step to modernizing our corporate taxation system?

what does that mean?

Canada is quickly becoming an outdated economy in regards to our corporate taxation. We aren't seeing the success of many other nations, despite being Saudi West.

Looking at the fantastic example of Ireland's re-birth as an economic power, we see that our corporate taxation systems are flawed and considerably outdated. In essence, I'm advocating a position where corporations don't pay taxes.

It's silly to charge a corporation a tax. All that money belongs to the shareholders, who are also taxed. I'm saying just tax the shareholders. Slap a withholding tax on foreign investors so that too much money doesn't leave the country.

But 0% corporate tax would be attracting investment by the boatloads into our economy, and really encourage strong growth.

Letting income trusts form the basis of this new taxation system would have been ideal, as they are relatively easily setup and monitored form of business. Eventually more and more companies would convert and we'd have to cut corporate taxes to zero for the others to be competitive.

You can't cut corporate taxes in Canada, the left protests (mostly because they just don't understand a thing about taxation). Letting corporations cut their own taxes in this way would prevent the black eye of making such a progressive move.

[B. Max]

I think they are going to be forced into reversing themselves to what existed, but not extending it to the oilsands that doesn't have any problem raising investment. Their only way out as I see it is to target the trusts to what they were originally intended for. No matter what, they've opened up a real can of worms.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The Prime Minister comes from Calgary and he's clueless about Alberta. Right.

If this guy wants to pursue this argument, he can go ahead. But he's going to look ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the country.

Cry me a river. On one hand, they say Ottawa doesn't understand them and then in the next, they ask for Ottawa's protection.

They got four years, that's more than enough.

We can't have a permanent imbalance between two sets of companies in the country. Think of the consequences. Our tax law is already complicated enough.

----

If we can fault Harper, it was for making the promise in the first place. His wiggle room is that the promise he made in the campaign was to protect seniors' savings. He's done that.

Harper has a much better clue about Alberta than any Prime Minister, save Clark maybe, since Diefenbaker.

This argument will get a little play in the media, just because it is a minor story. People will try and say the Conservagives are weaker in Alberta because of the decision. This is all somke and fethers about nothing...

[August1991]

Let Income Trusts continue and it make a politically sustainable first step to modernising our corporate taxation system.

Income trusts were a scheme cooked up by Bay Street lawyers to make themselves hefty commissions. It's like the Scientific Research Tax Credit.

There's an easy way to cut corporate taxes. It's to cut corporate taxes. (As Riverwind has noted elsewhere, they'd have to abolish the Dividend Tax Credit too.)

Our tax system is a Rube Goldberg machine and Income Trusts are a weird device stuck on the side. They should never have existed in the first place. The Liberals allowed it to make some people happy.

[geoffrey]

I think they are going to be forced into reversing themselves to what existed, but not extending it to the oilsands that doesn't have any problem raising investment. There only way out as I see it is to target the trusts to what they were originally intended for. No matter what, they've opened up a real can of worms.

Ok, that decision would be the end of the CPC in Alberta. I don't think they are bold enough to test a special tax on the oilsands.

It'd likely win them Quebec. Can they get 28 seats from there?

[hiti]

Income Trusts and their taxation is above the average individuals understanding of things, they don't get what's happening, and the CPC can spin it well.

I wouldn't sell the average individuals short. Many of them have invested in income trust for their retirement and many seniors use the proceeds of IT to live on.

Plus many, many small business in Alberta set up Income Trusts for capital funds to operate and expand. If the CEO's in Calgary are going after Harper he doesn't stand a chance. All that has to happen is for the energy economy to go down and all the blame can be put on Harper's IT policy.

As to who would they vote for. Watch them. Calgary's mayor is a Liberal.

[B. Max]

I think they are going to be forced into reversing themselves to what existed, but not extending it to the oilsands that doesn't have any problem raising investment. There only way out as I see it is to target the trusts to what they were originally intended for. No matter what, they've opened up a real can of worms.

Ok, that decision would be the end of the CPC in Alberta. I don't think they are bold enough to test a special tax on the oilsands.

It'd likely win them Quebec. Can they get 28 seats from there?

I don't see that being an end to them in Alberta but rather the only way they are going to save their asses in Alberta.

[geoffrey]

Income Trusts and their taxation is above the average individuals understanding of things, they don't get what's happening, and the CPC can spin it well.

I wouldn't sell the average individuals short. Many of them have invested in income trust for their retirement and many seniors use the proceeds of IT to live on.

Plus many, many small business in Alberta set up Income Trusts for capital funds to operate and expand. If the CEO's in Calgary are going after Harper he doesn't stand a chance. All that has to happen is for the energy economy to go down and all the blame can be put on Harper's IT policy.

As to who would they vote for. Watch them. Calgary's mayor is a Liberal.

That's what I'm saying. Calgary's oil CEO's were the basis of the backroom support of the CPC. Not exactly what they'd want to lose. They've already lost a great deal of personal savings to Harper's policy, if it threatens their business?

I really think both the CPC and some members on this board that ignore the power of Calgary's oil leaders are mistaken. They can do alot of damage, they hold a major amount of the wealth in this country and are the only people providing economic growth and jobs. Not the people you want to piss off, especially when traditionally they've been their strongest supporters.

The Liberals consulted IT oil guys, and then decided to hold off on a taxation decision. The CPC went ahead without consultation, that created a stir in Calgary. For a party that was going to let the West in, they have a funny way of showing it.

[Ricki Bobbi]

It's silly to charge a corporation a tax. All that money belongs to the shareholders, who are also taxed. I'm saying just tax the shareholders. Slap a withholding tax on foreign investors so that too much money doesn't leave the country.

But 0% corporate tax would be attracting investment by the boatloads into our economy, and really encourage strong growth.

Letting income trusts form the basis of this new taxation system would have been ideal, as they are relatively easily setup and monitored form of business. Eventually more and more companies would convert and we'd have to cut corporate taxes to zero for the others to be competitive.

You can't cut corporate taxes in Canada, the left protests (mostly because they just don't understand a thing about taxation). Letting corporations cut their own taxes in this way would prevent the black eye of making such a progressive move.

Would that revenue base be sustainable with the current personal income tax rates?

There isn't room for politically saleable large-scale cuts to programs. How would these be funded?

Better to have a Conservative Government that can be re-elected than one that wins the moral victory only to have it reversed next than a year later.

[August1991]

This argument will get a little play in the media, just because it is a minor story. People will try and say the Conservagives are weaker in Alberta because of the decision. This is all somke and fethers about nothing...

On the contrary, this is the kind of thing the Eastern media picks up on. Everyone loves watching a neighbour's family feud and if it involves Harper, some will really like it.

Fortunately, Income Trusts are just too complicated (and boring) to fathom. There's no cash sliding across restaurant tables and no taped phone messages.

[geoffrey]

Fortunately, Income Trusts are just too complicated (and boring) to fathom. There's no cash sliding across restaurant tables and no taped phone messages.

Unless your in the industry, your right, who cares? And that's the difference between the NEP and ITs. No one is jumping out of buildings and taking 75% loses on their homes yet.

There will still be CPC members elected in Calgary, it hasn't and won't do the damage that the NEP did to the Liberals.

[Ricki Bobbi]

On the contrary, this is the kind of thing the Eastern media picks up on. Everyone loves watching a neighbour's family feud and if it involves Harper, some will really like it.

Fortunately, Income Trusts are just too complicated (and boring) to fathom. There's no cash sliding across restaurant tables and no taped phone messages.

Sure they'll pick up on it, but even in today's Question Period it was made plain that the Conservative base in Alberta isn't at risk over this issue.

[geoffrey]

Sure they'll pick up on it, but even in today's Question Period it was made plain that the Conservative base in Alberta isn't at risk over this issue.

I don't know Ricki, talking to the people in the business community, many aren't impressed at all. I'm from Calgary-Southwest, there is no issue of the CPC losing this seat... and if anywhere, this would be the place (or Calgary-West, Calgary-Southeast).

The average household incomes in these 3 ridings are double the national average, these are were the oil execs and top level people live (I haven't found richer ridings anywhere else, maybe if someone knows?). The CPC has too strong a hold to lose these seats, and the other seats belong to mostly just typical Alberta hicks that vote CPC because thems going to stop those gays (no offense if your from that riding, but what sane business minded person votes for Art Hanger?).

Will they lose support? Yes. Financial support? Yes. Will they continue to be the party of the oil companies? No. Will they lose Calgary seats? Not a chance... I give that not a chance opinion as long as no credible reform movement comes in.

[August1991]

I really think both the CPC and some members on this board that ignore the power of Calgary's oil leaders are mistaken. They can do alot of damage, they hold a major amount of the wealth in this country and are the only people providing economic growth and jobs. Not the people you want to piss off, especially when traditionally they've been their strongest supporters.

BS. The proof is that the Tories had to move when BCE and other large corporations thought of going the Income Trust route. Calgary doesn't matter that much. It got a free ride on taxes for awhile and the show is over (or will be in four years).

The next step is to lower corporate taxes across the board and get teh federal government out of the subsidy business.

The Liberals consulted IT oil guys, and then decided to hold off on a taxation decision. The CPC went ahead without consultation, that created a stir in Calgary. For a party that was going to let the West in, they have a funny way of showing it.

They couldn't consult. It would have been blabbed all over town. In any case, there wasn't much to consult about.

Some small companies got a freebie tax break. When a big player tried the same stunt, the loophole got closed. Suck it up.

[geoffrey]

BS. The proof is that the Tories had to move when BCE and other large corporations thought of going the Income Trust route. Calgary doesn't matter that much. It got a free ride on taxes for awhile and the show is over (or will be in four years).

The next step is to lower corporate taxes across the board and get teh federal government out of the subsidy business.

Calgary doesn't matter much to Easterners, but it matters a whole lot when it comes to CPC support. All of their money, all of their business connections, come from here.

They couldn't consult. It would have been blabbed all over town. In any case, there wasn't much to consult about.

Some small companies got a freebie tax break. When a big player tried the same stunt, the loophole got closed. Suck it up.

That's not what it's about. Income trusts were the step to modernizing our economy, we've been set back in competitiveness on the international stage several years because of this decision.

[hiti]

The Liberal government was going to lower Corporate taxes, blend taxes on dividends and income trust so both were comparable and lower personal taxes across the board. This resonated with the CEOs of Alberta and would have kept Canada's economy humming. Harper's policies are going to slow down the oil industry and take a chunk of their profits. Not good policy for re-election especially with the federal government surplus.

[Ricki Bobbi]

I don't know Ricki, talking to the people in the business community, many aren't impressed at all. I'm from Calgary-Southwest, there is no issue of the CPC losing this seat... and if anywhere, this would be the place (or Calgary-West, Calgary-Southeast).

The average household incomes in these 3 ridings are double the national average, these are were the oil execs and top level people live (I haven't found richer ridings anywhere else, maybe if someone knows?). The CPC has too strong a hold to lose these seats, and the other seats belong to mostly just typical Alberta hicks that vote CPC because thems going to stop those gays (no offense if your from that riding, but what sane business minded person votes for Art Hanger?).

Will they lose support? Yes. Financial support? Yes. Will they continue to be the party of the oil companies? No. Will they lose Calgary seats? Not a chance... I give that not a chance opinion as long as no credible reform movement comes in.

I live in Calgary Centre-North and that could theoretically be considered the most 'left-leaning' riding in the city.

As for the ridings you mentioned be the 'richest' in the country I would guess that Toronto Centre, St. Paul's (in Toronto) and Vancouver Centre all rival those ones in terms of income...

The majority of Conservative financial support comes from small individual donors.

Which party will be the party of the oil companies? Businessmen are smart and take a long-term view. They realize the Liberals also would have done an about face on income trusts *if* they would have won.

[Figleaf]

Man oh man this is ALL just so absurd.

Harper's foolish move on income trusts was foolish, and demonstrated his dishonesty of character but the UTTER TRIPE some of you people come up with about the NEP is just the most pathetic nonsense.

The NEP didn't devastate Alberta. Alberta had a simple recession, not devastation. And it was brought on by macro-economic factors, not the NEP.

[hiti]

duplicate... ooops