Democracy At Risk

[Riverwind]

CNN

From your link:

The North Korean official then shocked Kelly when he looked at him and said "something to the effect of, 'Your president called us a member of the axis of evil. ... Your troops are deployed on the Korean peninsula. ... Of course, we have a nuclear program,'" according to the senior administration source, who was briefed on the meeting.

The NK official is linking the nuclear program directly to the ham fisted tactics of the Bush adminstration.

[America1]

CNN

From your link:

The North Korean official then shocked Kelly when he looked at him and said "something to the effect of, 'Your president called us a member of the axis of evil. ... Your troops are deployed on the Korean peninsula. ... Of course, we have a nuclear program,'" according to the senior administration source, who was briefed on the meeting.

The NK official is linking the nuclear program directly to the ham fisted tactics of the Bush adminstration.

Are you really that naive???

Did you expect them to say "Of course we have been lying about our nuke program for years and you fools bought our lie about stopping."?

[Riverwind]

Did you expect them to say "Of course we have been lying about our nuke program for years and you fools bought our lie about stopping."?

Are you really that clueless? The only reason NK wants nukes is because it sees the US as military threat. Bush was more than happy to feed the NK paranoia and encourage them to develop nukes as fast as possible. It is absurd for Bush to turn around now and say that he was not a big contributor to the problem.

[PolyNewbie]

According to Alex Jones (www.infowars.com) the Republicans are stealing this election as well with the advance voting.

[Canadian Blue]

Isn't the constant Bush bashing as bad as Republican's blaming everything on Clinton. I think everybody needs to get their heads out of their asses. As for the Republican's stealing the election, well me thinks the Democrats are gonna win both houses.

[Figleaf]

More likely, the reason is IF you WERE an American, you would vote Democrat.

Does that mean you are perfectly happy with an unreliable voting system because you believe that your party would benefit? That is a strange attitude.

Not for a Republican.

[Figleaf]

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[America1]

Did you expect them to say "Of course we have been lying about our nuke program for years and you fools bought our lie about stopping."?

Are you really that clueless? The only reason NK wants nukes is because it sees the US as military threat. Bush was more than happy to feed the NK paranoia and encourage them to develop nukes as fast as possible. It is absurd for Bush to turn around now and say that he was not a big contributor to the problem.

Honestly, how old are you? Do you not remember the 90's. NK used the threat of producing a nuke as a bargaining chip in ordered to be bribed into not using them (AKA He blackmailed Clinton with a "potential" nukes). NK has a completely broken economy and they need aid/assistance to survive. They blackmailed Clinton and his admin into give million and millions in aid and tech in trade they promised not to produce a nuke (which we all know thy did). Bush had nothing to do with that one. NK is playing the same card this time to get more aid.

[America1]

Isn't the constant Bush bashing as bad as Republican's blaming everything on Clinton.

Actually, no. Most things being blamed on Clinton were either not blameworthy or not his fault. In contrast, the things Bush is criticized for are really bad and clearly his fault.

Really??? I guess he had absolutely no responsibility for NOT going after Al Qaeda when the Cole and the World Trade Center got bombed, or not crushing the rebels in Somalia after we were attacked on a UN mission?

[sharkman]

Isn't the constant Bush bashing as bad as Republican's blaming everything on Clinton.

Actually, no. Most things being blamed on Clinton were either not blameworthy or not his fault. In contrast, the things Bush is criticized for are really bad and clearly his fault.

Clinton was blameless or it wasn't his fault? And everything Bush is being blamed for is his fault. Wow, he must be a complete genius, masterminding 9/11 a scant 9 months into his term, stealing elections and generally having his way with the Dems in every election up to now.

All this horse hockey about the Republicans stealing elections is just the result of bitter Dems who can't face the fact that their platform sucks. Lou Dobbs is singlehandedly trying to sway the election with his 'broken government' propaganda, and just like Dan Rather before him, it tends to tick off more people than it sways to the Dem's side.

[Ladyjen]

All this horse hockey about the Republicans stealing elections is just the result of bitter Dems who can't face the fact that their platform sucks. Lou Dobbs is singlehandedly trying to sway the election with his 'broken government' propaganda, and just like Dan Rather before him, it tends to tick off more people than it sways to the Dem's side.

Oh you think? Polls tell us otherwise!

http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politica...emains-low.html

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[PolyNewbie]

Infowars.com has shown video of engineers testifying in front of committees that they were hired to engineer stealing the election

There was a 6 point spread in the exit poles vs election results in Ohio.

The source code for these machines is kept from public view to protect Diebold intellectual property. The code could be written by a high school student as a first programming project in an afternoon. I guess with Bushites, that qualifies as IP.

[America1]

Infowars.com has shown video of engineers testifying in front of committees that they were hired to engineer stealing the election

There was a 6 point spread in the exit poles vs election results in Ohio.

The source code for these machines is kept from public view to protect Diebold intellectual property. The code could be written by a high school student as a first programming project in an afternoon. I guess with Bushites, that qualifies as IP.

and all of this was so compelling that Kerry and the Dems gave up the night of the election.

[KrustyKidd]

KrustyKidd' post='148532' date='Oct 30 2006, 06:32 AM']So Gore would have called it quits after invading Afganistan?

Most likely.

Just wait for another attck right? Best defence is to just wait for it to happen. Have a good emergency response plan.

Gore would have likely realized that invading Iraq to quell Jihadism is an oxymoron.

How so? Jihadist thrieve in countries where people are oppressed. Taking out Saddam and helping build a democracy where people have a voice was a good thing for the people of Iraq, for the people of the region and, for the world.

NK started developing nukes because the Bush regime refused to talk. You can argue til blue in the face about giving in to petty extortion but it will not chnage the fact that NK would not have nukes today it Bush had actually tried to negotiate with the Kim. Clinton did negotiate and bought Kim for a few years and he probably knew that the guy would have to be re-bought in a few years.

Wow. From rocks and sharp sticks to nukes in just a couple of years.

This last point pisses me off the most - any idiot with half a brain can connect the dots between NK nuke program and Bush policies but the right wing in the US are in complete denial. Instead they try to blame Clinton and use NK to justify even more gunboat diplomacy which has been proved to not work in the NK case.

The hated Wilkpedia supporting my point.

On March 12, 1993, North Korea said that it planned to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and refused to allow inspectors access to its nuclear sites. By 1994, the United States believed that North Korea had enough reprocessed plutonium to produce about 10 bombs with the amount of plutonium increasing. Faced with diplomatic pressure and the threat of American military air strikes against the reactor, North Korea agreed to dismantle its plutonium program as part of the Agreed Framework in which South Korea and the United States would provide North Korea with light water reactors and fuel oil until those reactors could be completed. Because the light water reactors would require enriched uranium to be imported from outside North Korea, the amount of reactor fuel and waste could be more easily tracked, making it more difficult to divert nuclear waste to be reprocessed into plutonium. However, the United States never built the promised light water reactors and in late 2002, North Korea returned to using their old reactors.

* 1992: In May, for the first time, North Korea allows a team from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), then headed by Hans Blix, to visit the facility at Yongbyon. Blix and the U.S. suspect that North Korea is secretly using its five-megawatt reactor and reprocessing facility at Yongbyon to turn spent fuel into weapons-grade plutonium. Before leaving, Blix arranges for fully equipped inspection teams to follow.

* The inspections do not go well. Over the next several months, the North Koreans repeatedly block inspectors from visiting two of Yongbyon's suspected nuclear waste sites and IAEA inspectors find evidence that the country is not revealing the full extent of its plutonium production.

* In an interview on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, former Secretary of State James Baker let it slip that North Korea “... had a rudimentary nuclear weapon way back in the days when I was secretary of state, but now this is a more advanced one evidently.” He was Secretary of State between 1989 and 1992.

* 1993: In March, North Korea threatens to withdraw from the NPT. Facing heavy domestic pressure from Republicans who oppose negotiations with North Korea, President Bill Clinton appoints Robert Gallucci to start a new round of negotiations. After 89 days, North Korea announces it has suspended its withdrawal. (The NPT requires three months notice before a country can withdraw.)

* In December, IAEA Director-General Blix announces that the agency can no longer provide "any meaningful assurances" that North Korea is not producing nuclear weapons.

* 12 October, 1994: the United States and North Korea signed the "Agreed Framework": North Korea agreed to freeze its plutonium production program in exchange for fuel oil, economic cooperation, and the construction of two modern light-water nuclear power plants. Eventually, North Korea's existing nuclear facilities were to be dismantled, and the spent reactor fuel taken out of the country.

* 26 October, 1994: IAEA Chairman Hans Blix tells the British House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee the IAEA is "not very happy" with the Agreed Framework because it gives North Korea too much time to begin complying with the inspections regime.

* 18 March, 1996: Hans Blix tells the IAEA's Board of Governors North Korea has still not made its initial declaration of the amount of plutonium they posess, as required under the Agreed Framework, and warned that without the declaration IAEA would lose the ability to verify North Korea was not using its plutonium to develop weapons.

* October 1997: spent nuclear fuel rods were encased in steel containers, under IAEA inspection. [6]

* 31 August, 1998: North Korea launched a modified Taepodong-1 missile in a launch attempt of its Kwangmyŏngsŏng satellite. US Military analysts suspect satellite launch is a ruse for the testing of an ICBM. [7] This missile flew over Japan causing the Japanese government to retract 1 billion in aid for two civilian light-water reactors.

Seems all was not right even before Bush took office.

[PolyNewbie]

America1:and all of this was so compelling that Kerry and the Dems gave up the night of the election

They are both on the same team. The election is between the Rockefeller Democrats and the Rockefeller Republicans. Thats why the election results were not contested.

I don't believe anyone can seriously argue that the elections in 2000 and 2004 were both stolen by the "crazies" as Ray McGovern, Robert Bowman and even George HW Bush would know them as. GHW Bush even kept them at arms length when he was in office.

They likely picked George Junior out of a gutter some place as a puppet they could easily control from behind the scenes.

[Riverwind]

I think this story proves why the US is stupid to trust electronic voting machines:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/31/fl...dont_cooperate/

voter who went Democrat across the board kept finding Republicans listed in the summary screen. He made repeated attempts until, finally, the machine registered his votes correctly, and he cast his ballot.

Now it is quite likely that these kinds of issues are purely accidental and not part of a deliberate conspiracy but the fact that these issues exist at all will simply undermine the credibility of the electoral process.

[Topaz]

Diebold and another company that makes these machines support the Cons and the head of Diehold was over heard at a party that he would do whatever it took to help Bush in the 2004 election. Some of the machines had votes on them before the polls opened. The only way to have an honest election with these is with a paper trail so people have proof of their vote. Any computer can be hacked and after seeing some results on the web, the day after the 2004 election, I believe it was rigged. I've read that certain congresspersons and senators have used rigged software in the past to be elected.

[Ladyjen]

There will always be fraud in any election anywhere. As we all know, there is the margin of error for spoilt ballots and small percentages of fraud. The voting processes that were put into place by America's forefathers ensured, for many generations, those issues would be minimal and would never alter an election with any great significance. The western world has always taken great pride in its democratic voting practices. How sad that for the first time in history millions of people will go to the polls not knowing if their vote will count. Even if there is no out and out fraud or the voting machines have not been deliberately tampered with, just the fact that the machines themselves and other polling practices are not up to par, must be extremely disturbing to most Americans.