We pay while Indians live in luxury

[charter.rights]

The biggest problem with this whole business is that there is no accountability. Tax payers see billions of their money disappearing and are not allowed to see where it goes so they assume there is major abuse, because there very likely is whenever there is no accountability. Make this subject to the Auditor General's scrutiny. If there is abuse, it can be dealt with, if there isn't, the critics will have less to bitch about.

There is more accountability, more audits and more financial scrutiny of First Nations than government at any level, or any corporation in Canada. The problem is that while facing under funding some band councils decide that it is better to help pay for someone's oil bill than to build a new house. One is an immediate need and the other is a long term goal.

The minute that a First Nation goes into the red, they are threatened with third party management. If only our government could run so good.

[charter.rights]

Excise taxes are paid by the buyers - not the company. You cannot include excise taxes paid by off reserve purchasers of six nations cigarettes as 'taxes paid by six nations'. It is just like GST.

A business that tried to claim that excise taxes were part of its income would be charged with accounting fraud.

Wrong. Excise taxes are paid BEFORE the goods can be exported and are a tax like any other that may be recoverable through the pricing. However, the company being taxed must provide that money up front to the government and it is consider their contribution to the tax base.

[Riverwind]

Wrong. Excise taxes are paid BEFORE the goods can be exported and are a tax like any other that may be recoverable through the pricing.

Companies may play games with pricing to disguise the fact that the excise taxes are being added to the price, however, that does not change the fact that it is the purchaser who pays the tax - not the seller. That is why excise taxes are not reported as a gross income line item and are submitted directly to the government. A company that tried to inflate its sales figures by including excise taxes would be guilty of accounting fraud. For the same reason excise taxes collected by SN companies cannot be treated as 'taxes paid' by SN.

[Wilber]

Wrong. Excise taxes are paid BEFORE the goods can be exported and are a tax like any other that may be recoverable through the pricing. However, the company being taxed must provide that money up front to the government and it is consider their contribution to the tax base.

Yes you pay them upfront and are reimbursed after you sell, just like regular business's have to with the GST from which reserve natives are exempt along with a bunch of other taxes which they don't pay but benefit from such as PST. If you do not sell the goods, you are the final consumer and are not reimbursed. A cumbersome system I agree but the government always makes sure it gets paid first, no matter what. That's life.

[Wilber]

There is more accountability, more audits and more financial scrutiny of First Nations than government at any level, or any corporation in Canada. The problem is that while facing under funding some band councils decide that it is better to help pay for someone's oil bill than to build a new house. One is an immediate need and the other is a long term goal.

The minute that a First Nation goes into the red, they are threatened with third party management. If only our government could run so good.

Who does these supposed audits and who gets the results? I am not just talking about band councils, the whole damn operation needs to be held accountable including the bureaucracy.

[Riverwind]

Who does these supposed audits and who gets the results? I am not just talking about band councils, the whole damn operation needs to be held accountable including the bureaucracy.

It does not make a difference how many audits take place. There will be no true accountabilty as long as lump sums are given to the band councils. The system would clean itself up pretty fast if the government gave the money to individuals and told the band councils that they have to fund themselves by taxing their residents. Edited April 22, 2008 by Riverwind

[charter.rights]

It does not make a difference how many audits take place. There will be no true accountabilty as long as lump sums are given to the band councils. The system would clean itself up pretty fast if the government gave the money to individuals and told the band councils that they have to fund themselves by taxing their residents.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's the most absurd suggestion yet!

[White Doors]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's the most absurd suggestion yet!

Yes, how absurd that there be accountability for band councils.. How outrageous that the tax money actually go to individual, needy, indians as opposed to the band council. How terrible!!

[Wilber]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's the most absurd suggestion yet!

What's so absurd about it, that's the way the rest of society works. People are taxed according to their earnings and government provides the services they want with that tax money. Problem is, we have done exactly the opposite with our native population so the whole concept is foreign to many of them, you included.

[charter.rights]

Yes, how absurd that there be accountability for band councils.. How outrageous that the tax money actually go to individual, needy, indians as opposed to the band council. How terrible!!

"A first nations community has to file approximately 168 forms per year to keep the revenue stream coming from the four or five different federal agencies that provide funding to a community. The Auditor General recommended streamlining these things so as not to put such an onerous task on first nations communities. There is so much room for error in there. No wonder the Canadian Alliance could find cases where papers were not filed on time or people were in arrears filing their documentation. Over three official documents have to be filled out correctly and submitted every week to add up to 168 per year. With the new provisions of Bill C-7, the first nations governance act, there will be more accounting and it will become more onerous.

The Auditor General of Canada commented that first nations communities were over-audited as it was. The real problem lied with the lack of accountability of those who accumulated the data and did nothing meaningful with it. They were supposed to jump through hoops every week and submit these forms into this vortex that was the bureaucracy of INAC and DIAND. Those were her observations and her criticism, and we share that view."

Hansard Thursday, January 30, 2003, First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act

Accordingly, the Auditor General still hasn't changed her mind.

The real problem lied with the lack of accountability of those who accumulated the data and did nothing meaningful with it.

The REAL problem lies with INAC not accounted for what First Nations have already accounted for.

[charter.rights]

Dbl post

Edited April 22, 2008 by charter.rights

[Oleg Bach]

Dbl post

Saw an Indian lounging in luxury on a park bench the other day...his royal hands were blue - as blue as the large bottle of mouth wash he gussled before passing out in a poisioned stupor...tragic - that is the only word I have - if some crooked natives live in luxury it is because they have teamed up with corrupt whites - Caledonia anyone?

[charter.rights]

What's so absurd about it, that's the way the rest of society works. People are taxed according to their earnings and government provides the services they want with that tax money. Problem is, we have done exactly the opposite with our native population so the whole concept is foreign to many of them, you included.

WE Haven't done anything with our native population except try to keep them down and kick them back when they start getting ahead. WE can't tax reserves because we have no jurisdiction. If only natives could find meaningful work with moderate incomes on reserve, there would be no need to worry about taxation. If only WE paid them what we really owed them, and then gave them royalties on minerals and timber harvested from their land without their permission, then it is likely they would be wealthier than we are, and you could get on with life. However, we all know that if natives had more wealth you'd still be complaining, because this isn't about tax burden, it is about your petty jealously that natives just might have the something you don't and that pisses you off.

[Oleg Bach]

WE Haven't done anything with our native population except try to keep them down and kick them back when they start getting ahead. WE can't tax reserves because we have no jurisdiction. If only natives could find meaningful work with moderate incomes on reserve, there would be no need to worry about taxation. If only WE paid them what we really owed them, and then gave them royalties on minerals and timber harvested from their land without their permission, then it is likely they would be wealthier than we are, and you could get on with life. However, we all know that if natives had more wealth you'd still be complaining, because this isn't about tax burden, it is about your petty jealously that natives just might have the something you don't and that pisses you off.

Natives are nobles - and WE the merchants priests hate any noble animal or human...they are naturally superiour to us - so ----------------we hate them!

[charter.rights]

Natives are nobles - and WE the merchants priests hate any noble animal or human...they are naturally superiour to us - so ----------------we hate them!

Ah...the poor white male cries while he blows his nose in his tattered underwear....

Let's all say it together....

POOR ME!

That is the root of the problem, now isn't. The poor white male has lost his power and needs someone to kick....

BTW. I saw the same thing with some white priest with his hands drenched in a baby's blood. Does that mean anything?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Maybe the answer is to just quit giving ALL of them money. Lets see how long it take to get them to the table to negotiate. Perhaps then we could actually get somewhere with resolving the issues. Cut off all funding period for anything other than health care and education.

Its time to settle this, both the government and the bleeding hearts can feel the wrath of those who are left funding and receiving the tax dollars. Let the issue explode so we can get busy finding a resolution.

I favour self government. Let them keep what they already have, but lets not get carried away. Tax them like everyone else, or let them tax themselves to fund their own services. It isn't that complicated, somebody has to pay for this stuff, the only question is who and how much. I say that they should have to pay their own way like everyone else or just admit their desire to be useless burdens on society. There are no free rides.

[Wilber]

Even more reason keep the bureaucracy out of it and send the money directly to the people. Let the band council tax them to provide services. If they don't get the services they want, give the council the boot and get another one. The concept is called responsible government. It's a win win. The natives get what they need and the rest of us don't have to foot the bill for a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats.

[jbg]

When are you thick headed clowns going to realize that money your business's collect for government isn't your income anymore than it is any other business's?

When they collect the GST or PST and don't turn it over to the government.

[jbg]

There is more accountability, more audits and more financial scrutiny of First Nations than government at any level, or any corporation in Canada. The problem is that while facing under funding some band councils decide that it is better to help pay for someone's oil bill than to build a new house. One is an immediate need and the other is a long term goal.

Then why do the band leaders live much better lives than the regular band members?

[Wilber]

Then why do the band leaders live much better lives than the regular band members?

You can't generalize, some have done a great job. Chief Clarence Louie of the Osoyoos band is a good example. He is much admired by many natives and non natives alike.

[jbg]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's the most absurd suggestion yet!

Why is it absurd?

There are serious suggestions that democracy springs from the need for accountability to people who pay taxes. That is one reason that countries that depend on foreign aid or resource sales for their income are rarely democratic and why the leaders of those countries (think Mexico or Venezuela, both nominally democratic but unaccountable and corrupt, and the oil-producing Islamic states) treat oil wealth as their own patrimony rather than a trust for their peoples.

Taxpayers frequently have strong opinions about the taking of their hard-earned wealth. People, such as FN band members who never see the government largesse by and large have no such opinions. If the money were distributed individually, they might question what they are receiving from their "leadership" for the extraction of taxes.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why is it absurd?

There are serious suggestions that democracy springs from the need for accountability to people who pay taxes. That is one reason that countries that depend on foreign aid or resource sales for their income are rarely democratic and why the leaders of those countries (think Mexico or Venezuela, both nominally democratic but unaccountable and corrupt, and the oil-producing Islamic states) treat oil wealth as their own patrimony rather than a trust for their peoples.

Taxpayers frequently have strong opinions about the taking of their hard-earned wealth. People, such as FN band members who never see the government largesse by and large have no such opinions. If the money were distributed individually, they might question what they are receiving from their "leadership" for the extraction of taxes.

Excellent points jbg! However I still think the way to deal with the problem is to cut off all funding, first. After that you can be sure to have their attention. On the other hand to support your point cutting out the middle man has great appeal. The thing to keep in mind is that individual natives own ZERO land. The land belongs to the band, and the leaders of the band get the money from the feds. It is a bad setup to be sure, and that is why I want to see it changed. Having said that, it is not up to me or any other people that are not native to decide how they distribute the funds given to them. There is the rub, and there is the support for your point. If the funding was distributed to the individual adults on a per capita basis there would be much discussion in the bands. That would empower the women over the men for starters. They have the same single mother problems we do on our side of the fence.

To cut out their leadership may cause some concerns from that corner to be sure and yet I can certainly see the logic of your proposal. Who knows what the reaction would be? It is time to find out though.

[charter.rights]

Then why do the band leaders live much better lives than the regular band members?

Because they have an income that puts them just above the poverty level, while the rest have no income, or are in marginal situations. The average Chief earns under $40gs a year. That is considered rich. Whipdedo.

[charter.rights]

Excellent points jbg! However I still think the way to deal with the problem is to cut off all funding, first. After that you can be sure to have their attention. On the other hand to support your point cutting out the middle man has great appeal. The thing to keep in mind is that individual natives own ZERO land. The land belongs to the band, and the leaders of the band get the money from the feds. It is a bad setup to be sure, and that is why I want to see it changed. Having said that, it is not up to me or any other people that are not native to decide how they distribute the funds given to them. There is the rub, and there is the support for your point. If the funding was distributed to the individual adults on a per capita basis there would be much discussion in the bands. That would empower the women over the men for starters. They have the same single mother problems we do on our side of the fence.

To cut out their leadership may cause some concerns from that corner to be sure and yet I can certainly see the logic of your proposal. Who knows what the reaction would be? It is time to find out though.

Sure do that and you can expect that they will take what they want from us.

We can't cut off funding anyway, since it is a debt WE owe them. If we stop paying they have a right to repossess our homes.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Sure do that and you can expect that they will take what they want from us.

We can't cut off funding anyway, since it is a debt WE owe them. If we stop paying they have a right to repossess our homes.

I don't owe those people a dime. Perhaps you do, but I don't. I don't know who the "we" you speak of but is sure isn't me.