Prominent Conservative Mp's "Miss the Alliance"

[SamStranger]

Outside of the foyer in the house of commons, prominent MP's such as: jason kenney, max baird, and diane finley said they "missed the days when the Alliance had the momentum in house".

CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/newstory/houseofcommons/541//["1234//oct2706]

I think I get what their saying. In the old days under Manning, possibly even Stockwell- the Alliance (reform) seemed to cause the big stirs in the house. now its the Liberals "shaking" things up. They jump in standing ovation alot (like the alliance did) And the Tories seem to laugh alot.

[Canadian Blue]

So they miss the days when the Alliance was in opposition and they miss the excitement because they believed they would make a breakthrough and possibly become the next government. Give us a new link since that one doesn't work.

[MightyAC]

I don't blame them for missing the old days, under the CPC banner MPs are not able to be themselves. MPs cannot have a social opinion, or any opinion for that matter, for fear of being slammed by supporters of their OWN party. In the old days the SoCons could be SoCons and the progressives could be progressives. They were allowed to speak freely, represent their constituents and they were only attacked by supporters of other parties. Now they are bound, gagged and forced to be part of the collective...resistance is futile...you will be assimilated...or kicked out of caucus.

The Reformers and PCs are too just too different. The same would happen to the Libs and NDP if forced to combine.

Here’s the solution… Give us PR. Give us two right options again, the center-right PCs and the further right Reformers, and let MPs represent the people that voted for them. I’m guessing that would be preferable to walking on eggshells over a mountain made out of mole hills. (Sorry, I had to throw in a song lyric there).

[Who's Doing What?]

It's like that old saying: "The harder you try to hold onto something the more slips through your fingers."

Taking away someones right to voice their oppinion is not the best formula for loyalty.

[Figleaf]

It's a classic case of 'beware of what you wish for'.

It's funny, because when the parties joined, many people thought it was the PC's that were being submerged. Surprise, surprise, they're all just tories now.

But is it so surprising? Harper never really bought into Preston's populism. Steve's more of a Leo Strauss kind of politician -- elitist and paternalistic.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Outside of the foyer in the house of commons, prominent MP's such as: jason kenney, max baird, and diane finley said they "missed the days when the Alliance had the momentum in house".

CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/newstory/houseofcommons/541//["1234//oct2706]

I think I get what their saying. In the old days under Manning, possibly even Stockwell- the Alliance (reform) seemed to cause the big stirs in the house. now its the Liberals "shaking" things up. They jump in standing ovation alot (like the alliance did) And the Tories seem to laugh alot.

What a joke. When will these retards learn the lesson the Libs learned decades ago: In CANADA you campaign from the left and govern from the right.

[Argus]

I don't blame them for missing the old days, under the CPC banner MPs are not able to be themselves. MPs cannot have a social opinion, or any opinion for that matter, for fear of being slammed by supporters of their OWN party.

Ah yes, the good old days. When the media lay in wait with all kinds of leading questions, with theoretical situations designed to lead the unwary, inexperienced MP to say something which could then be "interpreted" and lead to front page headlines condemning the Reformers as hicks and morons and extremists and bigots. The media jeered and ridiculed the Reformers as amateurs and rubes and gleefully attacked everything they said and did.

Now the Conservatives are acting like, well, the Liberals, which most of you support, which most in the media support: a party notorious for tight-lipped discipline, for MPs who are "nobodies" acting like "sheep" in parliament, doing and saying exactly what they're told to do and say without question or pause. You know, the natural governing party you all are desperately waiting to return to power.

There will be NO complaints from any of you then if government MPs don't speak their minds, no complaints at party discipline, no bother at their trained sheep act in the House.

[Wilber]

Unfortunately it is a characteristic of our political system. The party leader has too much power over the peoples representatives.

[MightyAC]

Ah yes, the good old days. When the media lay in wait with all kinds of leading questions, with theoretical situations designed to lead the unwary, inexperienced MP to say something which could then be "interpreted" and lead to front page headlines condemning the Reformers as hicks and morons and extremists and bigots. The media jeered and ridiculed the Reformers as amateurs and rubes and gleefully attacked everything they said and did.

A little dramatic...but at least the Reformers were actually representing their socially Conservative voters and it was only be attacked by outsiders. Now socons attack procons and vice versa. No MP is allowed to speak without a script and approval while the PM tries to parlay 30% core support into a majority.

Under PR the CPC party could split and return to actually representing those right of center. The formerly angry Libs are now slowly returning to their party; Conservative support will return to normal...even when they use the Liberal trick of buying votes with surplus cash. In its current form the CPC will start to loose the socons like the PCs did years ago. Harper is walking the razors edge but they can only be patronized for so long before they realize they are never going to be thrown a bone. I just hope we have PR in time so that both halves of the right can receive representation rather than competing for the same seat.

[Argus]

Under PR the CPC party could split and return to actually representing those right of center. The formerly angry Libs are now slowly returning to their party; Conservative support will return to normal...even when they use the Liberal trick of buying votes with surplus cash. In its current form the CPC will start to loose the socons like the PCs did years ago. Harper is walking the razors edge but they can only be patronized for so long before they realize they are never going to be thrown a bone. I just hope we have PR in time so that both halves of the right can receive representation rather than competing for the same seat.

I don't like PR because as often as not a miniscule one-issue party with very little public support winds up holding just enough votes to decide issues and gets deference and power out of all proportion to what they deserve.

[Figleaf]

... the Conservatives are acting like, well, the Liberals, which most of you support, ...

Most of who??

Unfortunately it is a characteristic of our political system. The party leader has too much power over the peoples representatives.

I blame the spineless, self-serving Parliamentarians. With a few exceptions, none of them are willing to stand up for themselves and take the lumps of defiance. Chuck Cadman and Garth Turner and maybe a few others who come to mind see themselves as responsible for their own actions. The rest are jellyfish.

Under PR the CPC party could split and return to actually representing those right of center.

I don't like PR because if the members come from party lists, they are even more party creatures than they are today. They would represent no-one but their parties, and there would be no-one representing any actual people.

[MightyAC]

I don't like PR because if the members come from party lists, they are even more party creatures than they are today. They would represent no-one but their parties, and there would be no-one representing any actual people.

Mixed meber PR would elect MPs from a riding as we do now. Then only a handful of party members are elected from a list afterwards to match the popular vote. Those in a riding won by say a Liberal can still help to add Conservative, NDP, Green, etc list MPs so they still have an infinite amount more representation than they do right now.

Under the super riding styple of PR every MP is from a riding.

[Ricki Bobbi]

I blame the spineless, self-serving Parliamentarians. With a few exceptions, none of them are willing to stand up for themselves and take the lumps of defiance. Chuck Cadman and Garth Turner and maybe a few others who come to mind see themselves as responsible for their own actions. The rest are jellyfish.

Fig, your *exceptions* are the very height of self-serving.

Garth played the loyal to the party MP role ... until he found out he wasn't getting into cabinet as he felt he so rightly deserved. Then he 'stood up for himself and took the lumps of defiance'???

Cadman was a different case. The party doesn't defend sitting MPs in nomination battles period. Chuck whined in caucus instead of organizing. He lost the nomination, ran as an independent and won. Good on him. When it came to the parliamentary vote Cadman saved the Martin government on in the May of 2005 there is a far more sinister explanation for his actions then the self-serving PR of "doing what my constituents wanted."

At the time of the vote Cadman knew he was on death's door, malignant melanoma is a nasty battle he was losing. The pension for the surviving spouse of a sitting MP is far more lucrative than the pension for the surviving spouse of a retired MP - even one who is receiving a parliamentary pension. Cadman died less than two months after saving the Martin government ....

[Canadian Blue]

PR would be much better then what we have now. Most people feel that they don't really get a say because no matter who they vote for they will often vote with the party only. People rarely vote for the MP, they more often then not vote for the political party. If 40% of the vote can translate to 100% of the power their is something wrong. We need to have some form of electoral reform, or I think we'll see voter turnout go to 50%.

I've also noticed that voter turnout consistently has gone down since the use of "scare" tactics. When the Liberal's unveiled those tactics in the 2000, 2004, and 2006 election, the voter turnout was still low at around 60% showing people were sick of politicians.

[jbg]

Here’s the solution… Give us PR. Give us two right options again, the center-right PCs and the further right Reformers, and let MPs represent the people that voted for them. I’m guessing that would be preferable to walking on eggshells over a mountain made out of mole hills. (Sorry, I had to throw in a song lyric there).

One, that would empower the 'dippers'. Two, Israel and Italy have PR. It totally emasculates accountability since the government can blame any failure to keep promises on "coalition partners".

[MightyAC]

Here’s the solution… Give us PR. Give us two right options again, the center-right PCs and the further right Reformers, and let MPs represent the people that voted for them. I’m guessing that would be preferable to walking on eggshells over a mountain made out of mole hills. (Sorry, I had to throw in a song lyric there).

One, that would empower the 'dippers'. Two, Israel and Italy have PR. It totally emasculates accountability since the government can blame any failure to keep promises on "coalition partners".

It seems that people think PR is one specific type of electoral system. There are many forms and combinations of PR. The majority democracies in the world use some form of PR.

A mixed member proportional system wouldn't be much different than what we have now...except that the actual number of MPs in the house would match how Canadians vote. Imagine getting the government we vote for. I say any system that distorts how we vote is undemocratic.

Here are 10 great first past the post low points in Canada:

http://fairvotecanada.org/en/node/148

[Argus]

Here’s the solution… Give us PR. Give us two right options again, the center-right PCs and the further right Reformers, and let MPs represent the people that voted for them. I’m guessing that would be preferable to walking on eggshells over a mountain made out of mole hills. (Sorry, I had to throw in a song lyric there).

One, that would empower the 'dippers'. Two, Israel and Italy have PR. It totally emasculates accountability since the government can blame any failure to keep promises on "coalition partners".

You also get some odd people into parliament. I was scanning the newspapers this morning and find an Italian MP, who used to be a stripper, apparently, outraged that a "transgendered" MP, ie, man in woman's clothing, was using the bathroom with her.

[jbg]

It seems that people think PR is one specific type of electoral system. There are many forms and combinations of PR. The majority democracies in the world use some form of PR.

I suspect its popularity is derived from the fact that it makes it easier for politicians to do the "dip and dive", i.e. avoid responsibility for not keeping promises. Any government, by definition, winds up being a mixed bag of parties, so no one party can be held to its promises or even basic philosophy.

[MightyAC]

It seems that people think PR is one specific type of electoral system. There are many forms and combinations of PR. The majority democracies in the world use some form of PR.

I suspect its popularity is derived from the fact that it makes it easier for politicians to do the "dip and dive", i.e. avoid responsibility for not keeping promises. Any government, by definition, winds up being a mixed bag of parties, so no one party can be held to its promises or even basic philosophy.

I suspect its popularity is derived from the fact that every votes counts and the elected government matches the vote count. How MPs vote is public knowledge so they can't hide.

You prefer a system that gives dictatorial power to a party with as little as 40% of the popular vote simply because they have no excuse for not keeping a promise? Talk about mixed up priorities.

[MightyAC]

You also get some odd people into parliament. I was scanning the newspapers this morning and find an Italian MP, who used to be a stripper, apparently, outraged that a "transgendered" MP, ie, man in woman's clothing, was using the bathroom with her.

Are you seriously saying this is a result of PR or did you just want to tell your interesting story?

Despite having a first past the post system Canada elected a PM that channeled the spirtit of his dead dog... I think he may have been our longest serving PM as well.