Provincial Seperation

[Riverwind]

If BC comes with us, then the house falls to 244, and with the remaining 94 Liberal seats...nope...still a minority. Oh well.

Alberta will be alone in its ventures. The major population centers in BC have more in common with Toronto than Calgary.

See! If we separate, you win!

Win what? A generation of economic chaos and lost economic growth? People dying as the inevitable territorial disputes erupt between minorities trapped within geographic boundaries that they reject? Separation is a lose-lose proposition even for Alberta. Anyone with the energy to advocate separation should be more responsible and spend that energy to advocate gradual reform of the federation.

[Figleaf]

Fig, why are you so upset about Alberta separation?

I wouldn't say "upset". But see post #47, above.

If we go, the house falls to 280 seats, and with the Lib's 103, they get to have a minority government.

Why would I be motivated by Liberal electoral fortunes?

If BC comes with us,...

Ha! You're not going anywhere.

[Hydraboss]

"If BC comes with us,...

Ha! You're not going anwhere."

Didn't really think BC would. You're right, we're probably not going anywhere. However, if the separation idea continues to grow (and it will) then Ottawa will have to address it as they have had to with Kwebek. Can you just imagine Alberta having special status for no apparent reason other than resource revenue? It would be excellent. No more whipping-boy stature for us, no more "make money and send it to us" attitude. No more "it's all in your head" BS from some easterner that never lived through the hardship. That part would be especially nice.

[jdobbin]

Didn't really think BC would. You're right, we're probably not going anywhere. However, if the separation idea continues to grow (and it will) then Ottawa will have to address it as they have had to with Kwebek. Can you just imagine Alberta having special status for no apparent reason other than resource revenue? It would be excellent. No more whipping-boy stature for us, no more "make money and send it to us" attitude. No more "it's all in your head" BS from some easterner that never lived through the hardship. That part would be especially nice.

There's a lot of Alberta separatists in this forum. I just don't see any evidence of a movement in Alberta.

And by movement, I mean an political party, large amounts of funds, attempts to run a full slate of candidates and a large base of supporters measured by polling.

[Figleaf]

No more whipping-boy stature for us,

There's no 'whipping boy' status now.

no more "make money and send it to us"

No-one is singling out Alberta to take its money away.

No more "it's all in your head"

As this thread amply demonstrates, there is no valid complaint.

BS from some easterner that never lived through the hardship.

You're incredible! Alberta had a recession. Boo hoo. Do you think no-one else has had recessions? Get your head out of your *ss before your sphink cuts off the blood to you brain!

[geoffrey]

For the last time: I'm the separatist.

Yup, not me. I'm a Canadian. I just think Alberta gets screwed, and we need to push for more Quebec like policies, where we deal with our own situation more, and less about provinces that refuse to accept progress (the maritimes).

There's a lot of Alberta separatists in this forum. I just don't see any evidence of a movement in Alberta.

And by movement, I mean an political party, large amounts of funds, attempts to run a full slate of candidates and a large base of supporters measured by polling.

Your right, it's not that well organized. Which is unfortunate. The threat would be enough for Alberta to become recognized as we should within Canada, at least as something more than a resource colony of Toronto.

I don't want to leave Canada, but it's like a young adult child that doesn't want to leave home. The parents (confederation) keep pushing it out the door, making life more difficult, making the conditions more extreme. Eventually the kid's gonna go. The problem for Canada with it's adult child, is that the child pays the bills.

There's no 'whipping boy' status now.

Four times per capita into Ottawa than anywhere else.

No-one is singling out Alberta to take its money away.

Ignatieff is. He wants to bring in a carbon tax. Same with pretty much every Quebecker. They all want our money to fund their socialist empire.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It seems to me that some people believe that Alberta owes Canada for its creation and depends on it for its continued existence. I am not comfortable with that debt. I think that perhaps it is finally time to work for the freedom of Albertans.

It has been suggested that there is no political "movement" to support seperatism in Alberta, perhaps that is true. I think I will endeavour to change that. For some reason I get the impression that those of us in Alberta are not welcome in Canada, and we are not held in very high regard. That is fine with me, I will tend to my own affairs and no longer consider the needs and wants of other locations or regions.

Its time for Albertans to focus on the needs and wants of our own citizens. To that end I think I will begin a letter to my MLA requesting that Alberta collect ALL taxation within its juridiction in a like manner to that of Quebec. Further I will suggest that Alberta create its own pension plan, use the Heritage Trust Fund as seed money and cease all citizens payments to the CPP and transfer ongoing payments to the new Alberta Pension Plan. This may be followed by a request to the federal government to transfer all funds held by Alberta citizens in CPP to the new Alberta Pension Plan. I will request the Alberta opt out of the EI plan and create and Alberta Employment Plan, all current contributions by Alberta citizens should be redirected into the new Alberta Employment Plan. I will also request that my MLA formulate legislation that all federal holdings in Alberta be assesed for updated land value for purposes of municipal taxation. It would be logical to self deduct healthcare and education allowances per capita for Alberta citizens as well as the administratives costs associated with tax collection from the total received in withholding taxes from Alberta citizens and corporations resident within this province.

That is the start of an effort to look after our own citizens without adverse impact to the federal government. Many people in this forum can feel secure in the knowledge that in my opinion Alberta should mind its own business. Of course we should continue to pay our fair share, and we will.

[Figleaf]

No-one is singling out Alberta to take its money away.

Ignatieff is. He wants to bring in a carbon tax.

There's a perfect example of irrational victim-thinking. A carbon tax is not an effort to single out Alberta. Whether you agree with the policy or not, it's not about wanting to deprive Alberta.

[Figleaf]

It seems to me that some people believe that Alberta owes Canada for its creation ...

It's a historical fact that Alberta was created by Canada. What reciprocal obligations this implies may be a matter for discussion.

For some reason I get the impression that those of us in Alberta are not welcome in Canada, and we are not held in very high regard.

I'd love to hear some reason for that feeling. The resentment expressed by some Albertans defies understanding. The two reasons tendered so far on this thread (the 30-years-past NEP, and the federal equalization program) just don't explain the viciousness of the bitterness.

That is fine with me, I will tend to my own affairs and no longer consider the needs and wants of other locations or regions.

Will that be a change from your prior approach?

[Hydraboss]

Jerry, I have sent letters to Klein in this regard and received only the "we would like to, but we'll try it with Canada just one more time..." answer.

Look this over and see what you think. It is not a separatist site, but it does endorse the whole firewall idea. The movement is already growing and this site gives like-minded people a focal point.

http://www.albertaagenda.ca/

Figleaf, you keep stating "It's a historical fact that Alberta was created by Canada. What reciprocal obligations this implies may be a matter for discussion."

Is it not also a fact that Britain and France are responsible for the creation of Canada? If that is your train of thought, should all of Canada acknowledge on the world stage that those two countries are entitled to our prosperity? Fair is fair. Maybe Bush should hand over the keys to the White House to Blair?

"...just don't explain the viciousness of the bitterness."

And you will never understand the reasons because you choose not to. It is a waste of breath to continue this banter with you because you feel that we are making it up or are delusional, and we feel that you are close-minded and will never come around to our way of thinking. Personally, I don't care if you endorse firewall tactics or separation outright. Should the time ever come, it will not be your decision to make; any more than it was Britain's or France's.

[Figleaf]

Figleaf, you keep stating "It's a historical fact that Alberta was created by Canada. What reciprocal obligations this implies may be a matter for discussion."

Is it not also a fact that Britain and France are responsible for the creation of Canada? If that is your train of thought, should all of Canada acknowledge on the world stage that those two countries are entitled to our prosperity?

First and foremost, their interest in our affairs has been formally terminated. Second, IMO, any moral obligations have been discharged. I see the positions of Canada's provinces in relation to Canada differently in both these respects.

"...just don't explain the viciousness of the bitterness."

And you will never understand the reasons because you choose not to.

I may never understand because you can't explain it. The facts don't explain it, certainly. You seem to think I woke up one day and decided 'Hey, I'm gonna pick Alberta to hold in contempt and close my mind against.' Not so. Why would I do that?

It is a waste of breath to continue this banter with you because you feel that we are making it up or are delusional, ...

It would help if you'd actually try to answer the questions I've raised about the validity of your grievances. It is hard to understand your reasoning if you won't provide it.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The reason that I think Alberta is not welcome is quite simple actually. My definition of welcome is one of friendship and respect, comfort and concern. Canada does not treat Alberta with friendship and respect, it treats us as you treat us. Both the nation and yourself believe that we are somehow beholding to you, it is as if you believe we are in your debt. You both claim that you created us, and you know what is best for us as some form of benevolent parent. News flash! The child has grown up and has decided to make its own way in this world.

With all due respect Fig ole boy, you can take you misbegoten politically challenged concept of reciprocal obligations and reconsider them to the best of your limited ability. In the most simple terms Albertans receive less per capita from the federal government than any other province, check your data and rethink that approach.

To your point about Canada creating Alberta, rethink that too will you. Canada ignored Alberta and the prairies when it reached out for British Columbia. Canada created preferential treatment for BC in the Crow rate knowing full well the impact on our citizens. Canada created and legislated the Canadian Wheat Board into a monopoly applicable only west of Ontario. The list is long and historically significant.

My previous position while being none of your business was simply that I was once a proud Canadian. Now I am ashamed of that handle. I believe that Canada has become a nanny state of sorts and little more than a vassal of the United States. From the gun registry to the adscam affair federal politics now revolt me. In addition people like you are ensuring that my position is becoming even more entrenched with respect to the grievances I have against your nation of Canada.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Jerry, I have sent letters to Klein in this regard and received only the "we would like to, but we'll try it with Canada just one more time..." answer.

Look this over and see what you think. It is not a separatist site, but it does endorse the whole firewall idea. The movement is already growing and this site gives like-minded people a focal point.

http://www.albertaagenda.ca/

Figleaf, you keep stating "It's a historical fact that Alberta was created by Canada. What reciprocal obligations this implies may be a matter for discussion."

Is it not also a fact that Britain and France are responsible for the creation of Canada? If that is your train of thought, should all of Canada acknowledge on the world stage that those two countries are entitled to our prosperity? Fair is fair. Maybe Bush should hand over the keys to the White House to Blair?

"...just don't explain the viciousness of the bitterness."

And you will never understand the reasons because you choose not to. It is a waste of breath to continue this banter with you because you feel that we are making it up or are delusional, and we feel that you are close-minded and will never come around to our way of thinking. Personally, I don't care if you endorse firewall tactics or separation outright. Should the time ever come, it will not be your decision to make; any more than it was Britain's or France's.

Large site to digest quickly, I will get back to you fella!!

[Figleaf]

You both claim that you created us, and you know what is best for us as some form of benevolent parent.

1. Canada DID create Alberta. It's a historical fact.

2. I've never claimed to know what's best for Alberta.

News flash! The child has grown up and has decided to make its own way in this world.

Odd that you'd choose to characterize Alberta as a child. Personally I think of it as a province with reciprocal obligations to its fellow provinces and its federation. Reciprocal obligations that you seem to want to dodge.

In the most simple terms Albertans receive less per capita from the federal government than any other province, check your data and rethink that approach.

SO WHAT?

Canada created and legislated the Canadian Wheat Board into a monopoly applicable only west of Ontario.

That was to help western farmers and it did help western farmers. The very idea that you can use the wheat board as a complaint is absolutely ridiculous. It ensured that farmers got a higher price for their grain. A higher price that other consumers in Canada had to pay.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You both claim that you created us, and you know what is best for us as some form of benevolent parent.

1. Canada DID create Alberta. It's a historical fact.

2. I've never claimed to know what's best for Alberta.

News flash! The child has grown up and has decided to make its own way in this world.

Odd that you'd choose to characterize Alberta as a child. Personally I think of it as a province with reciprocal obligations to its fellow provinces and its federation. Reciprocal obligations that you seem to want to dodge.

In the most simple terms Albertans receive less per capita from the federal government than any other province, check your data and rethink that approach.

SO WHAT?

Canada created and legislated the Canadian Wheat Board into a monopoly applicable only west of Ontario.

That was to help western farmers and it did help western farmers. The very idea that you can use the wheat board as a complaint is absolutely ridiculous. It ensured that farmers got a higher price for their grain. A higher price that other consumers in Canada had to pay.

You aren't very good at twisting the facts Fig! The ability to spin things in your direction eludes you. When you cherry pick quotes you need to be a little more careful.

Odd that you'd choose to characterize Alberta as a child. Personally I think of it as a province with reciprocal obligations to its fellow provinces and its federation. Reciprocal obligations that you seem to want to dodge.

Both the nation and yourself believe that we are somehow beholding to you, it is as if you believe we are in your debt. You both claim that you created us, and you know what is best for us as some form of benevolent parent. News flash! The child has grown up and has decided to make its own way in this world.

In this complete section where you took my words out of context, I did not characterize Alberta as a child I characterized Canada and yourself as benevolent parents. Come on Fig, my statement wasn't remotely close to any means of attack politics. Yet even so you try to spin it that way. Not very astute of you, but if that is how you want to attempt to debate the issue you have just opened the door.

Actually Fig it was the citizens of Alberta, 185,000 of them that petitioned Canada to become a province, so in reality we created this province through our own efforts. Canada held us in territorial status which provided a more limited form of democracy and government. It was better for us to become a province then to remain as part of the Northwest Territories, so through our efforts we achieved provincial status.

With all due respect, using "So What" as a response does little to debate a point, but it does prove that you either do not or can not understand the problem. While you may not care if Alberta spends more per capita on confederation and receives less per capita from confederation, we do. It is our concern, and by responding with "so what" you highlight your sentiments regarding that which is of concern to us. That is how the nation of Canada and yourself attempt to address issues placed before you by Alberta citizens.

With respect to the wheat board, I would suggest that you study up on the facts. It does not apply to all Canadian farmers, just western Canadian ones. It serves as a restriction as well as it does an advantage but in order to know that you will have to research and understand the entire issue.

Whether you choose to listen to Albertans or not is up to you of course, but it would be nice if you just stick to the facts and not embelish them with your lack of understanding.

[Figleaf]

Actually Fig it was the citizens of Alberta, 185,000 of them that petitioned Canada to become a province, so in reality we created this province through our own efforts.

Where did those people come from? How did they get there? What country owned the land that they petitioned to have made into a province?

Canada held us in territorial status

Canada held the territory in territorial status. The people were citizens of Canada.

It was better for us to become a province...

Which is why Canada generously agreed.

With all due respect, using "So What" as a response does little to debate a point,

It's a serious question meant to elicit an explanation for what relevance you think your point had. I ask because it seemed to have none.

... but it does prove that you either do not or can not understand the problem.

The problem is that you keep making the same complaint and ignoring the responses that explain why your complaint is off-base. Yes, the federal equalization program pays money to provinces that aren't as wealthy. What you need to understand is that the program is not targetting Alberta out of spite or anything else, it just happens that Alberta doesn't need the money and other provinces do. To make any kind of real point, you need to explain why that is so terrible, why the federal government shouldn't help provinces with less resources. When oil runs out or alternate energy becomes the way of things, Alberta may need the same kind of help. The problem I have with your position is that it ignores the fact that Canada is a WHOLE country. You seem to want us to be separate in all but name so you can keep all the lucre for yourself. Well, that won't fly because ALL Canadians have an interest in ALL of Canada.

With respect to the wheat board, I would suggest that you study up on the facts. It does not apply to all Canadian farmers, just western Canadian ones.

I know that. It was set up FOR western farmers to benefit WESTERN farmers only. It makes easterners PAY MORE for wheat.

It serves as a restriction as well as it does an advantage but in order to know that you will have to research and understand the entire issue.

It restrict the farmers from bidding eachothers price down to protect the price for all of them. It's an advantageous program for western farmers, and the fact that you'd complain that its some eastern plot to harm you convinces me you'll complain about anything.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Actually Fig it was the citizens of Alberta, 185,000 of them that petitioned Canada to become a province, so in reality we created this province through our own efforts.

Where did those people come from? How did they get there? What country owned the land that they petitioned to have made into a province?

11% were of German origin http://www.ualberta.ca/~german/PAA/German-...esinAlberta.htm

http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/eduweb/t...9/#_Toc36373746

From its essentially French and British base, settlers were joined by immigrants from both eastern and western Europe; by 1921, 54 percent of the population of the West had been born outside Canada.

Canada held the territory in territorial status. The people were citizens of Canada.

Some of them were, but not necessarily the majority.

It was better for us to become a province...

Which is why Canada generously agreed./quote]

The government was petioned Figleaf, as in it wasn't thier idea to start with. The citizens decided they wanted their own government that they could elect instead of having one imposed on them from Ottawa.

With all due respect, using "So What" as a response does little to debate a point,

It's a serious question meant to elicit an explanation for what relevance you think your point had. I ask because it seemed to have none.

You need to read a little more carefully, the point was clear for any but the logically impaired. We pay out more than we receive in programs and services on a per capita basis. Would you like to subsidize your neighbors car payment because you make more than he does? Would legislation that compels you to do so be fair in your opinion?

... but it does prove that you either do not or can not understand the problem.

The problem is that you keep making the same complaint and ignoring the responses that explain why your complaint is off-base. Yes, the federal equalization program pays money to provinces that aren't as wealthy. What you need to understand is that the program is not targetting Alberta out of spite or anything else, it just happens that Alberta doesn't need the money and other provinces do. To make any kind of real point, you need to explain why that is so terrible, why the federal government shouldn't help provinces with less resources. When oil runs out or alternate energy becomes the way of things, Alberta may need the same kind of help. The problem I have with your position is that it ignores the fact that Canada is a WHOLE country. You seem to want us to be separate in all but name so you can keep all the lucre for yourself. Well, that won't fly because ALL Canadians have an interest in ALL of Canada.

Get a grip Fig! I keep providing answers, your lack of understanding can hardly be declared my fault. I don't think that I can be truely described as ignoring the responses that you have made. I understand the equalization program very well actually, but perhaps you don't. Just for your information Albertans lost a hell of a lot of services and funding from the feds. Granted that other provinces did as well, but in our province we also made a lot of cuts to provincially funded programs as well just to balance our budget. We tightened our belts in hard times and made sacrfices, maybe the provincial government did where you live as well, since I have no idea where you are it would be a guess. At any rate we did what we had to do, for the greater good of our citizens. Now that we have covered our provincial debt, our designated levy is even higher than it was because the formula the feds uses calculates the debt load of the provinces into the payment schedules. So even after we have paid the price that to my knowledge no other province has, we are now being levied an extra measure in reward for the success of the endeavour. Go figure a punishment for a reward!

Now after having said that, my problem with your position is that you are ignoring the concerns of Albertans. There was no help from Ottawa during the NEP was there? Since when did Ottawa ever help Alberta? Has Ottawa ever helped Alberta?

With respect to the wheat board, I would suggest that you study up on the facts. It does not apply to all Canadian farmers, just western Canadian ones.

I know that. It was set up FOR western farmers to benefit WESTERN farmers only. It makes easterners PAY MORE for wheat.

Think again, are you suggesting that you pay more for wheat in Eastern Canada than we do in Western Canada. If you are in fact doing that I would like to see the proof of that one! While we are at it can you explain why if the whole marketing board concept was so beneficial to western farmers that the federal government actually put farmers in jail for selling their grain in the US for a better price than the Canada Wheat Board was offering to pay them?

It serves as a restriction as well as it does an advantage but in order to know that you will have to research and understand the entire issue.

It restrict the farmers from bidding eachothers price down to protect the price for all of them. It's an advantageous program for western farmers, and the fact that you'd complain that its some eastern plot to harm you convinces me you'll complain about anything.

The fact that you are talking out of your hat doesn't surprise me anymore. I never said there was an eastern plot! The fact that you are making that assertion in the first place indicates that you would lie just to make a point. You further that to another degree by declaring that I believe that I am somehow harmed in some manner based upon your lies.

Don't try to put words in my mouth Figleaf, I will spit them back at you anyway, you must know at least that by now. You are a living example of why myself and other Albertans find dealing with liars distasteful. But don't let common sense and decency from stop you from continuing to spread lies and misquote us poor misguided westerners. To the likes of your kind we have already been condemned as you will. We neither need or want your help anyway, all that we wanted was to be treated equally as partners in confederation. For the last one hundred years we have tried to be fair and honest with Canada even while the reverse cannot be said.

Thanks Figleaf for hidding behind an assumed name, being too afraid to say who you are. I feel pity for you and you weak knee political theories. You deserve Canada and it deserves you, for all your efforts you have merely made more Albertans look for alternatives to your Canada. What are you too afraid to show behind that figleaf anyway?

[Figleaf]

Where did those people come from? How did they get there? What country owned the land that they petitioned to have made into a province?

11% were of German origin ...

I don't mean their ethnic origins. I mean how physically did the get to Alberta? Answer: Thru Canada's ports and railways. Who built Canada's port and railways? (Hint: not slave labor from Alberta.)

It was better for us to become a province...

Which is why Canada generously agreed./quote]

The government was petioned Figleaf, as in it wasn't thier idea to start with. The citizens decided they wanted their own government that they could elect instead of having one imposed on them from Ottawa.

And, Canada having built Alberta up to the point were it was a viable province, Canada generously agreed.

Would you like to subsidize your neighbors car payment because you make more than he does? Would legislation that compels you to do so be fair in your opinion?

Income distribution programs are a fact of life in Canada. Do you oppose them in principle? My taxes support services to people who can't afford them. I know that some people object to the concept of income distribution programs, but I don't see why you think its a regional issue.

The problem is that you keep making the same complaint and ignoring the responses that explain why your complaint is off-base. Yes, the federal equalization program pays money to provinces that aren't as wealthy. What you need to understand is that the program is not targetting Alberta out of spite or anything else, it just happens that Alberta doesn't need the money and other provinces do. To make any kind of real point, you need to explain why that is so terrible, why the federal government shouldn't help provinces with less resources. When oil runs out or alternate energy becomes the way of things, Alberta may need the same kind of help. The problem I have with your position is that it ignores the fact that Canada is a WHOLE country. You seem to want us to be separate in all but name so you can keep all the lucre for yourself. Well, that won't fly because ALL Canadians have an interest in ALL of Canada.

Get a grip Fig! I keep providing answers, your lack of understanding can hardly be declared my fault. I don't think that I can be truely described as ignoring the responses that you have made. I understand the equalization program very well actually, but perhaps you don't. Just for your information Albertans lost a hell of a lot of services and funding from the feds. Granted that other provinces did as well, but in our province we also made a lot of cuts to provincially funded programs as well just to balance our budget. We tightened our belts in hard times and made sacrfices, maybe the provincial government did where you live as well, since I have no idea where you are it would be a guess. At any rate we did what we had to do, for the greater good of our citizens. Now that we have covered our provincial debt, our designated levy is even higher than it was because the formula the feds uses calculates the debt load of the provinces into the payment schedules. So even after we have paid the price that to my knowledge no other province has, we are now being levied an extra measure in reward for the success of the endeavour. Go figure a punishment for a reward!

Even as you claim to be answering, you are in fact not. Please explain why equalization is wrong, not how much it allegedly costs Alberta. Why shouldn't the Federal government have an equalization program?

Now after having said that, my problem with your position is that you are ignoring the concerns of Albertans. There was no help from Ottawa during the NEP was there?

During the NEP Alberta was flying high. During the recession the followed, Are you suggesting that suddenly the feds changed the equalization formula to screw Alberta, or maybe the fact is that Alberta's recession was never bad enough to make it fall to the level of the poorer provinces. Also, I know for a fact that the federal UI program was available accross the country including Alberta.

Since when did Ottawa ever help Alberta? Has Ottawa ever helped Alberta?

Throughout Canadian history. Up to 1905 Canada helped develop the territory Alberta eventually emerged from. As a province, Alberta benefited from industrial policies that developed the oil resource, and benefited from the Wheat Board. Like all provinces, Alberta benefits from the pooling of federal functions such as defence, and foreign services, etc. etc.

With respect to the wheat board, I would suggest that you study up on the facts. It does not apply to all Canadian farmers, just western Canadian ones.

I know that. It was set up FOR western farmers to benefit WESTERN farmers only. It makes easterners PAY MORE for wheat.

Think again, are you suggesting that you pay more for wheat in Eastern Canada than we do in Western Canada. If you are in fact doing that I would like to see the proof of that one! While we are at it can you explain why if the whole marketing board concept was so beneficial to western farmers that the federal government actually put farmers in jail for selling their grain in the US for a better price than the Canada Wheat Board was offering to pay them?

By creating a cartel the Wheat Board has kept the price of wheat higher than it would be if farmers competed with eachother. Consumers all over Canada have had their prices kept higher by that policy, all for the benefit of western farmers.

Some farmers who have an price advantage over their fellow farmers have tried to cheat on the program. Those farmers are not great heroes of freedom, they're cheaters.

Don't try to put words in my mouth Figleaf,

I don't think I did. But if I gave that impression, sorry.

But don't let common sense and decency from stop you from continuing to spread lies and misquote us poor misguided westerners.

Now you're lying. I never misquoted you.

For the last one hundred years we have tried to be fair and honest with Canada even while the reverse cannot be said.

Thanks Figleaf for hidding behind an assumed name, being too afraid to say who you are.

You're losing it. Calm down and be sensible. Almost everybody uses a screen-name here.

[Black Dog]

Alberta's biggest problem is that its to rich for its own good. Quebec's complaints tend to be linked to its status as a subculture within Canada, so its complaints have some emotional resonance. Alberta's beefs are all about money and I think people elsewhere have a hard time seeing what the richest province in the country with the highest average income and multi-billion dollar surpluses could have to bitch about.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Alberta's biggest problem is that its to rich for its own good. Quebec's complaints tend to be linked to its status as a subculture within Canada, so its complaints have some emotional resonance. Alberta's beefs are all about money and I think people elsewhere have a hard time seeing what the richest province in the country with the highest average income and multi-billion dollar surpluses could have to bitch about.

Alberta's bitch is about representation in government. Thankfully, now it seems entirely possible that the tables are turning and it will be the 3 major urban centres that are left out in the cold for a change

Perhaps its time Toronto takes a turn trying to figure out why the rest of the country is telling it what to do instead of viseversa

With regards to separation: in a period and a world where just about group on the face of the earth can (and has) become an independent nation, it appears the Quebec independence movement is the worst failure known to mankind.

[Black Dog]

Alberta's bitch is about representation in government. Thankfully, now it seems entirely possible that the tables are turning and it will be the 3 major urban centres that are left out in the cold for a change.

No: Alberta's complaints, as articulated by geoffery, are almost wholly financial. It's that which feeds the resentment of the east, not the other way round.

With regards to separation: in a period and a world where just about group on the face of the earth can (and has) become an independent nation, it appears the Quebec independence movement is the worst failure known to mankind.

I don't think Quebec has ever seriously intende dto leave. Why would they when th ehreat has been so successful at wringing concessions from Ottawa?

[JerrySeinfeld]

No: Alberta's complaints, as articulated by geoffery, are almost wholly financial. It's that which feeds the resentment of the east, not the other way round.

No. Alberta's complaints (other than the NEP) have always related to the fact that the election is over by the time they turn on their sets to catch the results. Liberals from Toronto and Quebec have run this country for decades. THAT is what pisses off Albertans.

I lived there for over 30 years, I should know.

[Black Dog]

No. Alberta's complaints (other than the NEP) have always related to the fact that the election is over by the time they turn on their sets to catch the results. Liberals from Toronto and Quebec have run this country for decades. THAT is what pisses off Albertans.

And why would that fact in and of itself piss of Albertans, unless the east was using that political power to screw over Alberta financially?

I lived there for over 30 years, I should know.

I'll see your lived there for 30 years and raise you a I was born there.

[JerrySeinfeld]

No. Alberta's complaints (other than the NEP) have always related to the fact that the election is over by the time they turn on their sets to catch the results. Liberals from Toronto and Quebec have run this country for decades. THAT is what pisses off Albertans.

And why would that fact in and of itself piss of Albertans, unless the east was using that political power to screw over Alberta financially?

I lived there for over 30 years, I should know.

I'll see your lived there for 30 years and raise you a I was born there.

There is more to running the country than money.

Gay marriage? Health Care? These are a couple of issues Albertans don't agree with trudeaupia on.

I was born in Alberta too. But I act like it You belong in Trudeaupia - ie. Toronto.

[Figleaf]

...

Perhaps its time Toronto takes a turn trying to figure out why the rest of the country is telling it what to do instead of viseversa

But honestly, what are you talking about? Who's been telling Alberta what to do?

... it appears the Quebec independence movement is the worst failure known to mankind.

Quebec doesn't really want to separate. The ROC should consider it an empty threat.