Provincial Seperation

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[B. Max]

That is what allies of the Crown will do. After Quebec is done, then we can drive west and deal with Alberta next.

I have no problem accepting anyone's surrender in the intereests of Canada.

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

[Riverwind]

Okay, so provinces can leave the federation if the federation permits it.

The SCC judgment also implied that the federation could not unreasonably withhold permission to seperate. IMHO, the SCC simply stated the obvious if you assume civil war is not an option. It is unrealistic to assume that any group armed with a 60% vote in favour of seperation would simply give up because the other provinces said no.

[Temagami Scourge]

That is what allies of the Crown will do. After Quebec is done, then we can drive west and deal with Alberta next.

I have no problem accepting anyone's surrender in the intereests of Canada.

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

Fine by me. We'll just keep what we take then.

[Riverwind]

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

Actually, that is the ultimate irony of separatist movements. All separatists are always hypocrites because once you agree that Canada is divisible then all of the newly created units are also divisible. If a democratic vote is enough to trigger the separation of Quebec or Alberta then a democratic vote can trigger the creation of any number of aboriginal states covering the northern parts of the provinces. If separatists try to use violence to stop aboriginal secession then they are inviting the rest of Canada to use violence to stop them from separating.

On the whole separation is a pandora's box that only the most naive would ever consider opening.

[Hydraboss]

I'm all for Quebec separation. Always have been, always will be.

however, it's probably not for reasons shared by others here.

... ...

These people will need protection because Quebec claims the northern half of the province, however, I see no problem with the northern half separating from the southern half for the same reasons. Essentially, as Quebec tries to extend its power north, we'll have to protect the north from this power grab.

That is what allies of the Crown will do. After Quebec is done, then we can drive west and deal with Alberta next.

I have no problem accepting anyone's surrender in the intereests of Canada.

Excellent. I'll see you when you get here. (and I'll have some Tim's muffins waiting for you)

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hydraboss]

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

Actually, that is the ultimate irony of separatist movements. All separatists are always hypocrites because once you agree that Canada is divisible then all of the newly created units are also divisible. If a democratic vote is enough to trigger the separation of Quebec or Alberta then a democratic vote can trigger the creation of any number of aboriginal states covering the northern parts of the provinces. If separatists try to use violence to stop aboriginal secession then they are inviting the rest of Canada to use violence to stop them from separating.

On the whole separation is a pandora's box that only the most naive would ever consider opening.

I agree. If people want to part everything out into smaller and smaller pieces, who am I to stop them. I have always been a huge supporter of a separate nation (or nations) for indians. Let them have theirs, and then we can quit paying. The devil is in the details, as they say, and they would have to agree that accepting the land means that they are in fact a unique and separate nation, one that does not and cannot depend on the former nation for support.

I say go for it.

Only the most naive would cling to the idea that Canada can remain as it is for all eternity. The true naivety is that we can continue as one big happy family (dysfunctional as it is) and "we will overcome". The box has been opened for "just a peek" for far too long and now needs to be flung wide open. Let the chips fall where they may.

[Temagami Scourge]

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

Actually, that is the ultimate irony of separatist movements. All separatists are always hypocrites because once you agree that Canada is divisible then all of the newly created units are also divisible. If a democratic vote is enough to trigger the separation of Quebec or Alberta then a democratic vote can trigger the creation of any number of aboriginal states covering the northern parts of the provinces. If separatists try to use violence to stop aboriginal secession then they are inviting the rest of Canada to use violence to stop them from separating.

On the whole separation is a pandora's box that only the most naive would ever consider opening.

I agree. Such is the folly of separation. I've often argued about Quebec separatism while I hang out in Quebec...unfortunately, most people in northern Quebec (at least the western part ie. Rouyn, Ville-marie etc.) aren't as separatistically inclined as their neighbours further south and east, but I never cease to point out that their leaving means that we (the Natives) can leave too, and if that means cutting up their province, then so be it.

What response do I get most? Oh...but native separation is different...we are civilized and are a Nation, but you Indians aren't (say the above in French.)

As usual, this is simply a judgement call made by un separatiste who gets annoyed by having his 9or her) argument turned around on them. Flusters them to no end.

The same goes for Alberta...except that the argument can be made in English.

The key point is that les Francais, and the germano-canadian population in southern Alberta, both have a long history of surrender, and I can't see that changing.

River: By the by...I'm in Vancouver on business at the end of November, and hoping to blow some taxpayers money. I'm staying at the Hampton Inn. Where in downtown is that? Is it near the Chinese food places, or on the North shore?

[Temagami Scourge]

Hydroponic:

Excellent. I'll see you when you get here. (and I'll have some Tim's muffins waiting for you)

I'm supposed to be in Edmonton in the spring, at the hotel in the Mall. Date and time pending.

I didn't know we (Easterners) allowed you people to have Tim Horton's. It's good to see that you're taking another step towards civilization.

We can discuss your surrender terms over an Ice Cap.

[geoffrey]

I agree. Such is the folly of separation. I've often argued about Quebec separatism while I hang out in Quebec...unfortunately, most people in northern Quebec (at least the western part ie. Rouyn, Ville-marie etc.) aren't as separatistically inclined as their neighbours further south and east, but I never cease to point out that their leaving means that we (the Natives) can leave too, and if that means cutting up their province, then so be it.

What response do I get most? Oh...but native separation is different...we are civilized and are a Nation, but you Indians aren't (say the above in French.)

If the Indians want to go, I say let them. On the same terms as any other province or group leaving Canada. Take your share of the debt (I think the per capita formula would be the most easily administered, though slightly advantageous to an first inhabitants type seperation). But there is no more money coming from Canada, other than foreign aid if needed.

We learnt that keeping one ethnicity or group under the control of another didn't work in Europe and that self-governance was a much more applicable means of finding peace.

If a majority of a region want to depart, they should be free to do so.

[Hydraboss]

Hydroponic:

Excellent. I'll see you when you get here. (and I'll have some Tim's muffins waiting for you)

I'm supposed to be in Edmonton in the spring, at the hotel in the Mall. Date and time pending.

I didn't know we (Easterners) allowed you people to have Tim Horton's. It's good to see that you're taking another step towards civilization.

We can discuss your surrender terms over an Ice Cap.

Actually, you don't let us have Tim Horton's. I was referring to Tim Polanski who own'e the NAPA in town. Makes great muffins.

And, sorry, we ain't got no Ice Cap. But the Esso makes coffee fresh on odd-numbered days.

Hell, we caint even spel serrender!!!

[Temagami Scourge]

Hydroponic:

Excellent. I'll see you when you get here. (and I'll have some Tim's muffins waiting for you)

I'm supposed to be in Edmonton in the spring, at the hotel in the Mall. Date and time pending.

I didn't know we (Easterners) allowed you people to have Tim Horton's. It's good to see that you're taking another step towards civilization.

We can discuss your surrender terms over an Ice Cap.

Actually, you don't let us have Tim Horton's. I was referring to Tim Polanski who own'e the NAPA in town. Makes great muffins.

And, sorry, we ain't got no Ice Cap. But the Esso makes coffee fresh on odd-numbered days.

Hell, we caint even spel serrender!!!

Does Tim have a sister? I've always been partial to females of Polish extraction....with their healthy chests and all. I can say "thank you" in their language.

I'm working on the surrender bit, though....it's easier in German (Thank You, Sargeant Rock!)

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

Actually, that is the ultimate irony of separatist movements. All separatists are always hypocrites because once you agree that Canada is divisible then all of the newly created units are also divisible. If a democratic vote is enough to trigger the separation of Quebec or Alberta then a democratic vote can trigger the creation of any number of aboriginal states covering the northern parts of the provinces. If separatists try to use violence to stop aboriginal secession then they are inviting the rest of Canada to use violence to stop them from separating.

On the whole separation is a pandora's box that only the most naive would ever consider opening.

I think you will find that in Alberta literally all citizens including those of the First Nations would compose a rather cohesive unit of like minded citizens. We do not believe ourselves to be naive at all, just mistreated by the ROC, very much like the First Nations actually.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You will likely find we won't deal with terrorists and surrender would be out of the question.

Actually, that is the ultimate irony of separatist movements. All separatists are always hypocrites because once you agree that Canada is divisible then all of the newly created units are also divisible. If a democratic vote is enough to trigger the separation of Quebec or Alberta then a democratic vote can trigger the creation of any number of aboriginal states covering the northern parts of the provinces. If separatists try to use violence to stop aboriginal secession then they are inviting the rest of Canada to use violence to stop them from separating.

On the whole separation is a pandora's box that only the most naive would ever consider opening.

I think you will find that in Alberta literally all citizens including those of the First Nations would compose a rather cohesive unit of like minded citizens. We do not believe ourselves to be naive at all, just mistreated by the ROC, very much like the First Nations actually.

[Figleaf]

l

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[geoffrey]

I think you will find that in Alberta ... We do not believe ourselves to be naive at all, just mistreated by the ROC, very much like the First Nations actually.

That would be funny, if it weren't so perversely self-serving, and so pathologically self-pitying. Yes, it would be funny, if it didn't make me want to puke.

You must live in Ontario or Quebec. I love when Easterners come here or speak their mind on what's best for Alberta. Justin Trudeau is going to try in a few weeks, I wonder what happens when a Montreal yuppie tells us how to develop our resources in Calgary? Hopefully he is booed out of town.

You know nothing about Alberta until you've lived here. I had your attitude towards the West at first when I lived back East, but when you see the amount of crap we put up with the RoC you'd get it too.

What other province is expected to give constantly, but in a time of crisis (our labour shortage) the rest of Canada says "oh well, your on your own, keep paying for our lazy asses to have 10+% unemployment".

[Temagami Scourge]

Heffie:

You must live in Ontario or Quebec. I love when Easterners come here or speak their mind on what's best for Alberta.

Although you aren't directing this query at me, I firmly believe that you need appropriate, Eastern-based leadership.

Even you exemplify the typical Alberta trait of flying off the handle without thinking ahead. You need good, steady leadership, and if you want I'll offer my services to be your leader or "guru". I can provide the foresight you, and nearly everyone else in your province, lacks.

You can thank me later.

[Hydraboss]

Heffie:

You must live in Ontario or Quebec. I love when Easterners come here or speak their mind on what's best for Alberta.

Although you aren't directing this query at me, I firmly believe that you need appropriate, Eastern-based leadership.

Even you exemplify the typical Alberta trait of flying off the handle without thinking ahead. You need good, steady leadership, and if you want I'll offer my services to be your leader or "guru". I can provide the foresight you, and nearly everyone else in your province, lacks.

You can thank me later.

I know! We can blockade Hobbema and Samson!!!! That's the proper way to extort what we want from the ROC!

Leadership? And how, exactly, will that work? Maybe we can give all the provincial tax money to Chief Origami, and then he can give it to his friends so that our children can live in squalor! Excellent idea.

And you, my friend, exemplify the typical indian trait of flying off at the mouth without thinking, period.

Fig,

I respect the fact that you do not like the idea of separation, but you seem to follow the ideals of a democracy. Would you endorse a plebicite on the separation of Alberta, or BC? What if BC suceeded and took all of Bubber's weed? Would you want to fight them on it, or is it just Alberta that pisses you off?

This is one of the largest problems with the political and social systems in Canada. Everyone that doesn't live in a certain place thinks that they "know what is best" for the people of that place.

[Temagami Scourge]

Hydra:

And you, my friend, exemplify the typical indian trait of flying off at the mouth without thinking, period.

Imitation is the sincerest for of flattery. As I said, you people can't even make a proper gibe without copying what I said in an earlier post in order to do it. Your natural "follower" abilities betray you, my fine prairie friend.

That is part of the reason why you need Eastern leadership and guidance. Left to your own devices, you'll use up your resources in no time and will be back with hat in hand, begging for more scraps from Canada's table.

fear not, though Hydro. I'm not like you. I would gladly extend a helping hand and care for you and yours. I mean heck, I've done it for years already...why stop now?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I favour freedom of choice and the power of democracy. If enough Albertans want to seperate then we will seperate if not so be it. It will not make a fed supporter out of me either way that is for sure. I get a good laugh at folks who think the provinces should be junior partners in confederation. We are supposed to be equal, and after having watched how that has been mishandled in the framework of my life I have been placed on my current political path. It is political stupidity for Alberta to remain in confederation. It is financial incompetance to remain in Canada. Honestly I don't think Albertans fit in either category.

[Figleaf]

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Figleaf]

..

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Temagami Scourge]

Fig,

I respect the fact that you do not like the idea of separation, but you seem to follow the ideals of a democracy. Would you endorse a plebicite on the separation of Alberta, or BC? What if BC suceeded and took all of Bubber's weed? Would you want to fight them on it, or is it just Alberta that pisses you off?

I invite you to check the thread Negotiating Separation on the Federal forum.

Very generally, I have three main issues c. separatism:

-the grievances that drive it are exaggerated or even fictional;

-destruction of Canada would be a terrible shame;

-separatists' agendas implicitly deny the valid interests of other Canadians outside their clique.

If no one else says so, those are three solid points Mr. (or Ms.) Leaf. I am especially attuned to the first point in particular. That is the kind of thing that makes people try to say that they are "just as oppressed" as Native people in this country.

Thank you for your insight.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Fig,

I respect the fact that you do not like the idea of separation, but you seem to follow the ideals of a democracy. Would you endorse a plebicite on the separation of Alberta, or BC? What if BC suceeded and took all of Bubber's weed? Would you want to fight them on it, or is it just Alberta that pisses you off?

I invite you to check the thread Negotiating Separation on the Federal forum.

Very generally, I have three main issues c. separatism:

-the grievances that drive it are exaggerated or even fictional;

-destruction of Canada would be a terrible shame;

-separatists' agendas implicitly deny the valid interests of other Canadians outside their clique.

Is it an exaggeration that the NEP cost Albertans dearly? The destruction of Canada would be a shame, but why didn't the sentiment apply to Alberta with respect to the NEP? In Alberta we believe that ALL Albertans deserve to make that choice and voice their opinions.

If you fear seperation then why don't you tell your MP to think about addressing the issues that cause it? Transfer payments are causing real backlase in Alberta these days, what is your view on this tax Alberta program? The democratic deficit is very real and close to the hearts of Albertans as is visible in the majority of support for Senate reform, what is your view on that?

There are a multitude of reasons why Albertans want to seperate, how do you propose to resolve the issues at hand?