Oh boy!

[B. Max]

The first new oil refinery in north America in twenty five years. I'll bet the treehuggers are doing back flips all over the continent in anticipation of hanging this prize on the wall. No effort is likely to be spared, from trotting out the Kennedy crowd to the Hollywood sickle swingers. The Irving's are definitely among the bravest in the brave new world.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/sto...ryconcerns.html

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If the Alberta government had even half a functional brain they would have built half a dozen refineries to process Alberta oil. Irving has the right idea.

[Charles Anthony]

The Irving's are definitely among the bravest in the brave new world.

Yeah, I am sure that having "friends" in political office is completely incidental to one's commercial success.

[B. Max]

If the Alberta government had even half a functional brain they would have built half a dozen refineries to process Alberta oil. Irving has the right idea.

I hope you mean letting it be known they would be receptive to having them built. I think we could use one more refinery in Alberta at the present time to keep up with demand. The last to winters now they haven't been able to keep up with the demand for diesel fuel in the north.

[B. Max]

The Irving's are definitely among the bravest in the brave new world.

Yeah, I am sure that having "friends" in political office is completely incidental to one's commercial success.

Well you certainly don't want your enemies in political office.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Nope, I meant to say that the tax payers servants that are employed in the Alberta Legislature should have used the Alberta Heritage Trust Fund to buy PetroCan when it was for sale in the first place, and then should have used that company to exploit the tar sands and build a few refineries to partake in a value added production process that would have proven to be a far better use of the Trust Fund than having is disappear into general revenues.

The question of whether or not governments should be in business is a broken record. In this province, of Alberta, we have seen the deregulation of natural gas and electric companies as well as telecommunications companies, that have resulted in higher costs for the same products and services to citizens. You only have to check your utility bills to confirm this and know that citizens got a raw deal. In some cases the government can do it cheaper and better than anybody else.

[B. Max]

Ridiculous. We already paid once to buy up the companies that made up petrocan and got zippo out of it when it was sold. All that was accomplished was to reduce competition and increase taxes. Now you want to buy it again. The heritage slush fund should be divided up among the citizens of Alberta depending on how long one has lived here, and if they want to use their share to buy shares in the oil companies they should, and would be well advised to.

[B. Max]

The question of whether or not governments should be in business is a broken record. In this province, of Alberta, we have seen the deregulation of natural gas and electric companies as well as telecommunications companies, that have resulted in higher costs for the same products and services to citizens. You only have to check your utility bills to confirm this and know that citizens got a raw deal. In some cases the government can do it cheaper and better than anybody else.

Government monopolies of state owned business have a track record of failure. In fact they are a nothing but a shell game. In the other provinces utility rates are going through the roof and even being to not be able to supply the service. Alberta utility rates are in good shape, but I would like to see more competition with less government interference.

[mcqueen625]

If the Alberta government had even half a functional brain they would have built half a dozen refineries to process Alberta oil. Irving has the right idea.

Unfortunately the only thing the Irving's care about is profits. They could care less that their record of polluting the air-shed in Saint John is very poor. Every time they exceed the limits, all the people of Saint John gets is a weak apology and a promise not to let it happen again, at least not until the next time, which usually isn't too long in coming.

Jim Irving scammed the Mayor and Council, as well as the Province of NB led by Bernard Lord, by telling these fools that if they didn't approve a demanded tax deal for their yet to be built LNG Terminal they would go elsewhere. Mayor Norm and his roving band of idiots passed the motion even though the item wasn't even on the meeting's agenda, by telling Council that the deal had to be passed by midnight or else the sky would fall. Next came Fowlie, former Minister of Environment and Local Government who told those who were opposed to any tax deal that it would be months before it could even be dealt with by the provincial government, yet the required legislation was passed within two weeks, virtually without debate, because Bernard Lord made sure every MLA was in the House to vote in favour of the legislation. This shows how little she knew about the corporate power the Irving's wield over both the Provincial politicians as well as their Municipal counterparts.

The Assessment Branch of the Provincial government estimated that the property taxes due on this LNG property would have been between $5.5 and 6 Million per year, but because of this special deal the property tax has been locked in at $500,000.00 per year for the next 25 years, and this amount is not adjusted for inflation. Immediately after this announcement City officials started talking about the necessity to either raise taxes or reduce services due to budgetary short falls. Now I ask you, are those involved in approving this deal playing with a full deck?

I can envision the same type of demands coming from the Irving's when looking for approval of this project for a new refinery. Not only will the citizens of Metropolitan Saint John be stuck with the pollution, but they will also be stuck with the crumbling infrastructure, while Irving runs to the bank in Bermuda to deposit their obscene profits. This company simply does not like to pay their fair share in taxes.

Sure Saint John could use the jobs, but not at any cost. I have heard Irving employees referred to as being owned, and I don't think that's too far off the mark. This was an entirely different corporation and family when K.C. himself was still alive. I remember hearing stories about his generosity from a couple of friend's who lived in an Anglican run Home for Boys, next to his mansion of Mt. Pleasant Avenue.

[B. Max]

I can envision the same type of demands coming from the Irving's when looking for approval of this project for a new refinery. Not only will the citizens of Metropolitan Saint John be stuck with the pollution, but they will also be stuck with the crumbling infrastructure, while Irving runs to the bank in Bermuda to deposit their obscene profits. This company simply does not like to pay their fair share in taxes.

What obscene profits. http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/pumptalk/2132.aspx

As usual people fail to understand that it is the consumer who in the end pays the tax. No matter where it is imposed.

[Great Pharoah]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Alberta to develp Ethanol plants instead of Oil Refineries. Or other alternative energy plants. Look beyond oil

[geoffrey]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Alberta to develp Ethanol plants instead of Oil Refineries. Or other alternative energy plants. Look beyond oil

Alberta is the leader in the Western world in alternative energies with our wind and clean coal initives. What the hell is Ontario/Quebec doing different? Where is there investment? That's right, there is none.

Complete BS to pick on Alberta. Of course we produce the most CO2 when our job is to provide the fuels to the rest of Canada to burn in consumer related endeavours.

[jdobbin]

Alberta is the leader in the Western world in alternative energies with our wind and clean coal initives. What the hell is Ontario/Quebec doing different? Where is there investment? That's right, there is none.

Ontario is about to announce a major building initiative on nuclear plants.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Nope, I meant to say that the tax payers servants that are employed in the Alberta Legislature should have used the Alberta Heritage Trust Fund to buy PetroCan when it was for sale in the first place, and then should have used that company to exploit the tar sands and build a few refineries to partake in a value added production process that would have proven to be a far better use of the Trust Fund than having is disappear into general revenues.

Hmmm, so wrong on so many levels.

1. The terms of the Petro Canada IPO were that no shareholder, other than the Feds could owe more than 10% of the shares.

2. The stock price fell by 35% within the first year. Not such a great investment for public funds.

3. PetroCan didn't have the capability to be a major player in Oil Sands at the time of the IPO. Things have changed a lot in the past 15 years.

4. The Don Getty fiascoes probably proved that it was a good thing for Alberta taxpayers the government didn't buy PetroCan.

[B. Max]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Alberta to develp Ethanol plants instead of Oil Refineries. Or other alternative energy plants. Look beyond oil

No.

http://www.powerweb.net/heisey/index.htm

[geoffrey]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Alberta to develp Ethanol plants instead of Oil Refineries. Or other alternative energy plants. Look beyond oil

No.

http://www.powerweb.net/heisey/index.htm

So many on the activist green left side of the world just think all green solutions are consequence free. Like nuclear... mmm three headed fish at Pickering, they sure taste good with a nice sauvigon blanc. Or all the hectares destroyed by hydroelectric daming. The flocks of birds mowed down by wind towers. Green indeed.

[Remiel]

Geoffrey, if Alberta is the country's leader in alternative fuel, might that not have a bit to do with it having the most ideal conditions for things like wind towers and solar panels? I hesitate to add corn, because I don't know whether Alberta or Ontario is better for corn. I see a lot of the yellow stuff being grown where I live. Anyway, I'm not really say it to detract from Alberta's accomplishment, just trying to point out that it may be easier than in some provinces.

As a side note, what do you think of energy generation from ocean currents? Do you know if it also has an adverse affect on wildlife (though I'll admit I don't feel much for the birds and wind towers)?

[cybercoma]

So, do you actually give a crap about air quality in Saint John, NB or do you have another agenda? Perhaps you're just another one of those anti-capitalist, corporate bashers that hates to see jobs created, particularly in a province where industry is weak.

I moved from Windsor, ON to Fredericton, NB about 8 months ago and I can tell you that the air quality in Saint John, NB is a million times better than anywhere from Windsor to Toronto and Montreal. All this belly-aching about smog and pollution from another oil refinery is just a bunch of hot air from communists bent on destroying corporations and capitalism.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

A new refinery in Alberta is an economic key to our sustainable devlopment for Alberta. The adverse environmental effects need to be considered and mitigated to the extent possible with available technology.

[mcqueen625]

If the Alberta government had even half a functional brain they would have built half a dozen refineries to process Alberta oil. Irving has the right idea.

That's fine for you to say, but you don't have to live every day with the pollution caused by the Irving's with their existing oil refinery and their pulp mill in the west side of teh City of Saint John, and the Irving Paper Mill on the East side right next to the oil refinery and in betwween those tow lives a power plant formerly owned by NB Power but now owned by the Irving's burning bunker "C".

Saint John, NB has one of the highest incidents of Asthma in Canada, all thanks to the Irvings or their products. Given a choice the Irving's can stick their newest brainwave where the sun don't shine. The Irving Empire is concerned only with money and they could care less the dangers they are foisting on the people of Saint John. As for them being paying their fair share of the tax burden, all one has to do is look at the LNG Tax Deal that they coericed out of the City of Saint John, and the Government of New Brunswick.

[mcqueen625]

Cybercoma; You may well have moved from Windsor, ON to Fredericton, but Fredericton is definitely not Saint John, so don't profess to lecture on the air quality in Saint John since you don't live here. I moved out of Saint John to Grand Bay-Westfield in an effort to be able to breathe some unpolluted air. Yes I do have asthma and breathing the air in Saint John is definitely injurious. In fact a friend of mine whom I worked with often times could not work his shift when the wind was blowing in the wrong direction, because of difficulty breathing. We worked in a group home directly up the valley from the existing refinery, and I can't believe that you could even suggest that breathing petroleum fumes would not be injurious to one's health. The last attack my friend had after breathing the polluted air, he died on the way to the ER in the ambulance.

Fredericton is close to 100 km. up the highway from Saint John, and I might be able to have the same opinion as you do, had I not lived most of my life breathing Saint John's polluted air. Everytime I drive toward Saint John on hazy day, as you approach the outskirsts of Saint John you can observe a browish haze hanging over the city, and I'm quite sure that Fredericton has no such brown haze, or at least I have never seen such a haze on my many trips to Fredericton for meetings.

[B. Max]

If the Alberta government had even half a functional brain they would have built half a dozen refineries to process Alberta oil. Irving has the right idea.

That's fine for you to say, but you don't have to live every day with the pollution caused by the Irving's with their existing oil refinery and their pulp mill in the west side of teh City of Saint John, and the Irving Paper Mill on the East side right next to the oil refinery and in betwween those tow lives a power plant formerly owned by NB Power but now owned by the Irving's burning bunker "C".

Saint John, NB has one of the highest incidents of Asthma in Canada, all thanks to the Irvings or their products. Given a choice the Irving's can stick their newest brainwave where the sun don't shine. The Irving Empire is concerned only with money and they could care less the dangers they are foisting on the people of Saint John. As for them being paying their fair share of the tax burden, all one has to do is look at the LNG Tax Deal that they coericed out of the City of Saint John, and the Government of New Brunswick.

We have a number of oil refineries around Edmonton and there is no smog from them.

[jdobbin]

We have a number of oil refineries around Edmonton and there is no smog from them.

Alberta has a sulfur problem if rural people are anything to judge by.

23% of Canada's sulfur comes from Alberta and locally, it can be a problem.

[B. Max]

We have a number of oil refineries around Edmonton and there is no smog from them.

Alberta has a sulfur problem if rural people are anything to judge by.

23% of Canada's sulfur comes from Alberta and locally, it can be a problem.

What sulfur problem. Sulfur is extracted largely by sub plants and then sent to the fertilizer plants or is stored in blocks the size of city blocks and a hundred feet high on site at those sub plants.

[jdobbin]

What sulfur problem. Sulfur is extracted largely by sub plants and then sent to the fertilizer plants or is stored in blocks the size of city blocks and a hundred feet high on site at those sub plants.

It made the news this past summer.

http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/est...p_acidrain.html