Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”Context is everything:http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.2000/religion.htm The oft-quoted Quranic verse about killing of disbelievers pertains to only a particular period when the disbelievers had rejected a treaty. It is like generalising the American army order to kill Vietnamese guerillas for all time to comeI haven't bothered to look at the other ones because but I am pretty sure they are taken equally out fo context. Now let's contrast that with a quote from the Bible (Numbers 31:17): Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.Clearly the Bible is advocating wholesale slaughter of children. According to your logic I should ignore the context in Numbers 31 and start repeating that quote over and over again to show how Christianity is a violant religion. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 Here's a couple for you to scoff at:Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” I'm going to only bother with the first one...as it sets the tone....... Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, kafirs) where ever you find them."[Al-Qur'an 9:5] 2. Context of verse is during battlefield Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful." [Al-Qur'an 9:5] This verse is quoted during a battle. Sort of like saying that the order from Samuel to Saul to slay the Amalikites and there goats were still in effect today....nice try...... Here's one that I endorse from the Unequivical Book of Dancer The Laws of Morris Dancer 1:1 Woe to he that comes to a battle of wits unarmed. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”Context is everything:http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.2000/religion.htm The oft-quoted Quranic verse about killing of disbelievers pertains to only a particular period when the disbelievers had rejected a treaty. It is like generalising the American army order to kill Vietnamese guerillas for all time to comeI haven't bothered to look at the other ones because but I am pretty sure they are taken equally out fo context. Now let's contrast that with a quote from the Bible (Numbers 31:17): Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.Clearly the Bible is advocating wholesale slaughter of children. According to your logic I should ignore the context in Numbers 31 and start repeating that quote over and over again to show how Christianity is a violant religion. If you recall, I am not saying the Bible has no calls to war or commands to kill. You are arguing a point that I am already agreeing with. However, I said that the Koran has verses that represent standing orders to kill infidels. My recent link has dozens of verses. You can not explain them all away. The point is some Muslim citizens are taking it upon themselves to kill others in a jihad. Where do you suppose they are getting this idea? They are not just making it up, my friend. Quote
Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 If you recall, I am not saying the Bible has no calls to war or commands to kill. You are arguing a point that I am already agreeing with. However, I said that the Koran has verses that represent standing orders to kill infidels. My recent link has dozens of verses. You can not explain them all away.Holy hypocrisy batman! Sorry, no dice. You can't give Christianity a pass but criticize Islam for the same 'offence'. I have been able to establish pretty quickly that somes quotes that you have provided have context which you choose to ignore. So I don't see the point of going through each individual quote.The point is some Muslim citizens are taking it upon themselves to kill others in a jihad. Where do you suppose they are getting this idea? They are not just making it up, my friend.The same place Christians get the idea to kill abortion doctors or at least provide moral support to those that do. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Holy hypocrasy batman! Sorry, no dice. You can't give Christianity a pass but criticize Islam for the same 'offence'. And I am pretty sure that every one of the quotes can be explained by similar context. The point is some Muslim citizens are taking it upon themselves to kill others in a jihad. Where do you suppose they are getting this idea? They are not just making it up, my friend.The same place Christians get the idea to kill abortion doctors or at least provide moral support to those that do. Okay, then show me where the Bible has standing orders to kill unbelievers. Show me. BTW, the Bible does not tell Christians to kill abortion doctors, try again. And by saying Christian fanatics are doing it too still does not justify it. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 What is this? A merry go round? How many time do you wish to be shown? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Okay, then show me where the Bible has standing orders to kill unbelievers. Show me. BTW, the Bible does not tell Christians to kill abortion doctors, try again.There are _no_ standing orders to kill unbelievers in the Quaran. No matter how many times you you repeat the statement you will not make it any less false. Every quote you provided has context where there is some battle or war going on and the call for killing only applies to enemies that are trying to kill Mulsims at the time. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 If you recall, I am not saying the Bible has no calls to war or commands to kill. You are arguing a point that I am already agreeing with. However, I said that the Koran has verses that represent standing orders to kill infidels. My recent link has dozens of verses. You can not explain them all away. The point is some Muslim citizens are taking it upon themselves to kill others in a jihad. Where do you suppose they are getting this idea? They are not just making it up, my friend. Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill...... make up your mind already..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 What is this? A merry go round?How many time do you wish to be shown? The examples given thus far are not standing orders for Christians to kill unbelievers. There are no such scriptures in the Bible. Quote
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Okay, then show me where the Bible has standing orders to kill unbelievers. Show me. BTW, the Bible does not tell Christians to kill abortion doctors, try again.There are _no_ standing orders to kill unbelievers in the Quaran. No matter how many times you you repeat the statement you will not make it any less false. Every quote you provided has context where there is some battle or war going on and the call for killing only applies to enemies that are trying to kill Mulsims at the time. You are not interested in looking at the verses. There are over 100 of them. Fine, I will leave you to your defense of Islam. Muslims blow up themselves for Allah, but because Christians kill abortion doctors, I guess that makes it right. Whatever. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 What is this? A merry go round? How many time do you wish to be shown? The examples given thus far are not standing orders for Christians to kill unbelievers. There are no such scriptures in the Bible. Now I will go on record as saying, yes I am anti semantic.....So what are they? pray tell....I am interested to see if your biblical knowledge is as jejune as your koranic...... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 You are not interested in looking at the verses. There are over 100 of them. Fine, I will leave you to your defense of Islam. Muslims blow up themselves for Allah, but because Christians kill abortion doctors, I guess that makes it right. Whatever.Where did I say that it is right for anyone to kill anyone for whatever reason? I am simply pointing out that your mindless hatred directed at Islam is as bad as any mindless hatred by Islams directed at non-Mulsims. There is not a lot of difference between someone who supports the murder of Muslim civilians with smart bombs and cruise missles and someone who supports the murder of non-muslim civilians with suicide bombers. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 Muslims blow up themselves for Allah, but because Christians kill abortion doctors, I guess that makes it right. Whatever. Is that all muslims or some muslims....? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 . Where did I say that it is right for anyone to kill anyone for whatever reason? ever get the feeling you are out numbered 200 strawmen to one? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Muslims blow up themselves for Allah, but because Christians kill abortion doctors, I guess that makes it right. Whatever. Is that all muslims or some muslims....? The Muslims that are blowing themselves up. It's actually self explanitory. And Riverwind, now I have you resorting to namecalling. Mindless hatred? Because I think Muslims that blow themselves up are dangerous? This is beyond me, you two posters can not even admit that Muslim extremists that blow themselves up are bad. You just bring up other religions and say they do it too. That's the best you have? Oh, and name calling. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 you two posters can not even admit that Muslim extremists that blow themselves up are bad. Really? Who told you that one? Did you get some circular with my opinions on it? Or is it just a case (as in the so called muslim silence) that if you don't see it, it doesn't exist? Anyway...your strawmen are multiplying fast..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Because I think Muslims that blow themselves up are dangerous?No you are not saying that. You started out by claiming that there is something inherently wrong with Islam by throwing around out-of-context quotes from the Quran. After having your attempts to smear Islam discredited you now claim that all you trying to do is say that 'Muslims that blow themselves up are dangerous'. If that is what you really want to say then say that and don't make generalized attacks on Islam. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 So, can you agree that Muslims that blow themselves up are dangerous without bringing up other whackos and saying they do it too? Yes I am saying more than that but I was trying to point out that I haven't heard 1 iota of criticism from some posters on Muslim extremists. Only defense. Anyway, you have not changed my mind, only revealed to me that some will not criticize Islam at any cost, even when murderers are involved. Am I wrong? I invite you to criticize them now. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 Because I think Muslims that blow themselves up are dangerous?No you are not saying that. You started out by claiming that there is something inherently wrong with Islam by throwing around out-of-context quotes from the Quran. After having your attempts to smear Islam discredited you now claim that all you trying to do is say that 'Muslims that blow themselves up are dangerous'. If that is what you really want to say then say that and don't make generalized attacks on Islam. Quite right. Stating the suicide terrorists are evil is a no brainer. And lumping every muslim and their religion to with an extremist fringe is also lacks brains. As a matter of fact, the similarity in ignorance between islamofascists and islamophobics is striking. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 ..... only revealed to me that some will not criticize Islam at any cost, even when murderers are involved. Am I wrong? I invite you to criticize them now. I don't think anyone is particulary interested in debating with strawmen...... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Anyway, you have not changed my mind, only revealed to me that some will not criticize Islam at any cost, even when murderers are involved. Am I wrong? I invite you to criticize them now.Your friggen strawmen are rediculous. You have stated that it is wrong to criticize Christianity because a few Christians kill abortion doctors yet you insist on criticizing Islam because some Muslims engage in terrorist attacks. Why can't you see how hypocritical you are? Your line of argument is no different than people in the past who argued that there was something inherently wrong with Jews and Judaism. I defend Islam from your attacks for the same reason I would defend Jews or any other religious or ethnic group from attacks from people who are only interested in encouraging hatred of an entire group rather than blaming the individuals who commit crimes. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Anyway, you have not changed my mind, only revealed to me that some will not criticize Islam at any cost, even when murderers are involved. Am I wrong? I invite you to criticize them now.Your friggen strawmen are rediculous. You have stated that it is wrong to criticize Christianity because a few Christians kill abortion doctors yet you insist on criticizing Islam because some Muslims engage in terrorist attacks. Why can't you see how hypocritical you are? Your line of argument is no different than people in the past who argued that there was something inherently wrong with Jews and Judaism. I defend Islam from your attacks for the same reason I would defend Jews or any other religious or ethnic group from attacks from people who are only interested in encouraging hatred of an entire group rather than blaming the individuals who commit crimes. You still won't criticize Muslim terrorists. Okay, fine. I know I can't get you to see that with all the calls to Jihad in the Koran, Islam is a violent religion. So I thought I'd at least see if you would criticize Muslim terrorists. To be honest, I didn't think you would. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 5, 2006 Author Report Posted October 5, 2006 Islam is a violent religion In a nutshell, this is why you have no legs Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
sharkman Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 Quite right. Stating the suicide terrorists are evil is a no brainer. And lumping every muslim and their religion to with an extremist fringe is also lacks brains. As a matter of fact, the similarity in ignorance between islamofascists and islamophobics is striking. Rant: Your stereotyping is pathetic and you obviously can't make simple deductions because YOUR ignorance prevents you from seeing anything objectively. You are nothing more than a smart ass with a computer. You add nothing this forum and are just another yes man for your pet causes. How boring. Quote
Riverwind Posted October 5, 2006 Report Posted October 5, 2006 You still won't criticize Muslim terrorists. Okay, fine. I know I can't get you to see that with all the calls to Jihad in the Koran, Islam is a violent religion. So I thought I'd at least see if you would criticize Muslim terrorists. To be honest, I didn't think you would.Can't you read English? This is not about criticizing terrorists. It is about you spreading hatred of an entire religion while you are pretending to 'criticize terrorists'. I and others have already demonstrated why your claims that the Islam is 'violent religion' are completely bogus yet you continue to insists that those claims are true. Then you try to turn around and acuse the people that point out your hypocrasy and contradictions as 'supporters of terrorism'. Why don't you just admit that you hate Mulsims and that you wish to exterminate all Mulsims. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
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