The Pope

[Electric Monk]

Did anyone notice that the defacement of the pope's picture turned him into a Pastafarian? Awesome!!

[Remiel]

You really blew it this time, sharpman. There are no Christian terrorists?

Remember, the Jackal?

[sharkman]

I have already explained in at least two posts why your interpretation of those quotes is completely wrong. Why don't you try reading what I wrote and respond to it with some more context from the Quran that backs up your interpretation.

Gee, I guess I'm too busy hating(according to you) to read. You did not explain each quote, just accused me of getting them from a hate site(again with the hate) but I did not. I said in my first post where I got them. Perhaps you need to reread MY posts.

[M.Dancer]

You haven't heard any? How many did you listen to? 2? 3? Zero?

Interesting, aside from your vaccuum and your show stopping claim "educated debate only exists on our side" (the irony which must be lost on you) I was watching a show on vision last saturday called understanding the Koran. The show consisted of a young and attractive woman asking a muslim scholar question about life, the universe and everything.

She finally got to the pope.

His explanation was well reasoned, thought provoking and insightful.

I can't repeat verbatim his discourse, but in a nutshell......

The pope was wrong on 2 counts.....

1) The Pope was discussing the relationship between science and religion. In doing so, the byzantine quote added nothing to the argument, it was a non sequitor.

2) The Byzantine quote in context was false. Muslims made war, it is true. Christians made war as well, for exactly the same reasons Muslims made war...for political reasons. While it is true that Christians fought in the name of Christianity (Constantine, Crusades), why should one be surprised that muslims are different? And while it is true that in every land conquered by christians, the public became christains, it is not true of every muslim conquest.

He mentions a third reason but by that point I was readingh Thomas and the Rumours to my son........

Oh, so Muslims violent reactions to a comment are justified. Right.

Everyday society attacks Christian beliefs and what do we hear? Not much. Piss off the Muslims and you've got riots, burning of likenesses, calls for murder.

I can't believe you don't see the difference. Islam is a violent religion still, Christianity isn't, it's modernized.

Did i quote him as saying the violence was justified or do you where some special tinfoil that allows you to hear what others don't? Or maybe your toaster told you.....?

[M.Dancer]

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

There are no 'standing orders' to kill in the Quran either. I already explained how you took the quotes out of context but it appears that you don't want to let go of your irrational hatred of Islam.

The bible has a number of standing order to kill.......some are no longer in effect due the thoroughness of their completion, and some have fallen by the wayside due to our enlightened era...but there are certainly standing orders to kill.

If someone says please I shall list them.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

There are no 'standing orders' to kill in the Quran either. I already explained how you took the quotes out of context but it appears that you don't want to let go of your irrational hatred of Islam.

The bible has a number of standing order to kill.......some are no longer in effect due the thoroughness of their completion, and some have fallen by the wayside due to our enlightened era...but there are certainly standing orders to kill.

If someone says please I shall list them.

Great, now all we need is a worldwide movement of Christians self-detonating in the name of the Bible and you might be on your way to having a point!

[M.Dancer]

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

There are no 'standing orders' to kill in the Quran either. I already explained how you took the quotes out of context but it appears that you don't want to let go of your irrational hatred of Islam.

The bible has a number of standing order to kill.......some are no longer in effect due the thoroughness of their completion, and some have fallen by the wayside due to our enlightened era...but there are certainly standing orders to kill.

If someone says please I shall list them.

Great, now all we need is a worldwide movement of Christians self-detonating in the name of the Bible and you might be on your way to having a point!

You mean like abortion clinic bombers? Does it have to be worldwide? Won't united states wide be enough? Afterall, the "jihadist" movement isn't world wide, your confusion notwithstanding........

[Riverwind]

Great, now all we need is a worldwide movement of Christians self-detonating in the name of the Bible and you might be on your way to having a point!

The distinction is quite important - anyone who makes the assertion that the religion of Christianity is inherently superior to Islam is false. Christianity and Islam are equal when comes violent crap in their holy books. The difference that we see in practice is a result of cultural differences between Islamic societies and Christian societies. Most Christian societies absolutely reject the notion that the religion and state should be connected - OTH most Islamic societies believe that religion and the state are one (Turkey is an exception that proves Islam and secularism are compatible given the right environment).

So when a Christian society wants to go a genocidal rampage they usually justify it in nationalist or racial terms (Hitler's Aryan obsession or the Serbians call to unite all Serbs). When an Islamic society goes on genocidal rampage they will often use religious justifications. A genocide is still a genocide no matter what the justification in all cases the justification is B.S. and the real reasons are always fear and greed.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

There are no 'standing orders' to kill in the Quran either. I already explained how you took the quotes out of context but it appears that you don't want to let go of your irrational hatred of Islam.

The bible has a number of standing order to kill.......some are no longer in effect due the thoroughness of their completion, and some have fallen by the wayside due to our enlightened era...but there are certainly standing orders to kill.

If someone says please I shall list them.

Great, now all we need is a worldwide movement of Christians self-detonating in the name of the Bible and you might be on your way to having a point!

You mean like abortion clinic bombers? Does it have to be worldwide? Won't united states wide be enough? Afterall, the "jihadist" movement isn't world wide, your confusion notwithstanding........

Yes, exactly like abortion clinic bombers.

Now, let's start counting....

[M.Dancer]

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

There are no 'standing orders' to kill in the Quran either. I already explained how you took the quotes out of context but it appears that you don't want to let go of your irrational hatred of Islam.

The bible has a number of standing order to kill.......some are no longer in effect due the thoroughness of their completion, and some have fallen by the wayside due to our enlightened era...but there are certainly standing orders to kill.

If someone says please I shall list them.

Great, now all we need is a worldwide movement of Christians self-detonating in the name of the Bible and you might be on your way to having a point!

You mean like abortion clinic bombers? Does it have to be worldwide? Won't united states wide be enough? Afterall, the "jihadist" movement isn't world wide, your confusion notwithstanding........

Yes, exactly like abortion clinic bombers.

Now, let's start counting....

Let me rip a page from your book of sleazy tactics........

So then you agree that the common christian practise of attacking doctors and clinics to protect their idea of life is wrong and dispicable?

Now, let's start counting....

....and the answer btw...is

over $13 million in damage caused by violent anti-abortion groups since 1982 in over 150 arson attacks, bombings, and shootings

[JerrySeinfeld]

When did this turn into a pissing match?

Of COURSE I think it's wrong for christian fundamentalists to attack abortion doctors.

It just so happens that they're not doing it on the global scale that Islamists are - which makes the Muslims a MUCH bigger problem in the world.

As a sidebar (not that it makes it much better) the target of Christians is doctors performing abortions.

The target of the blow-up male Muslims are...well......infidels. Basically ANYONE.

[geoffrey]

When did this turn into a pissing match?

Of COURSE I think it's wrong for christian fundamentalists to attack abortion doctors.

It just so happens that they're not doing it on the global scale that Islamists are - which makes the Muslims a MUCH bigger problem in the world.

As a sidebar (not that it makes it much better) the target of Christians is doctors performing abortions.

The target of the blow-up male Muslims are...well......infidels. Basically ANYONE.

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

[M.Dancer]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

Yeah? You personally polled these leaders or is that just what you suspect?

Seriosly....since you obviously haven't taken any time in trying to find out what muslims really think, how would you hope to know what they condemn or approve outside of your own suspicions and uneductaed guess work?

[geoffrey]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

Yeah? You personally polled these leaders or is that just what you suspect?

Seriosly....since you obviously haven't taken any time in trying to find out what muslims really think, how would you hope to know what they condemn or approve outside of your own suspicions and uneductaed guess work?

Have you polled the great Islamic leaders about their thoughts on violence? What does Osama think? His t-shirts are very popular in the Islamic world.

I can tell you the Catholic Church and most protestant denominations have consistantly condemned the killing of abortion practioners. I don't know any Christians that other than those that have committed such crimes that support the activity. There are many Muslims that support the activities of Osama, look at the Khadr's, and we let them live over here.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Big difference here, Christians and Christian leaders oppose the extremists that commit such crimes. Muslim leaders outside of North America (where they would be charged) cheer and support suicide bombings and attacks on 'infidel' civilians.

Yeah? You personally polled these leaders or is that just what you suspect?

Seriosly....since you obviously haven't taken any time in trying to find out what muslims really think, how would you hope to know what they condemn or approve outside of your own suspicions and uneductaed guess work?

Actually I've taken a ton of time to understand what is going on in the faith and some of it is pretty scary.

Someone very close to me has converted to Islam several years ago and I constantly engage him in dialogue about the faith. His answers are often aversive, frequently aggressive and commonly scary.

When I asked him if he thought Iran should hav a nuke his answer was "it will ultimately be Allah's decision".

Huh? What the heck does that mean. It not only avoids a direct yes or no question but provides a ludicrous response. This is how he thinks!

When I asked what he thought of women's rights his response was bizzare. To paraphrase "I do not talk to any woman in a private room....an I will never look her in the eye....and when I speak to her it will never be with sweetness, but instead it must be firm and stern....a woman must not wear clothing which makes her a possible object of desire...."

When I ask about violence he says "this does not represent tru Islam" - which I have found is the stock response to anything.

The interesting thing is - what DOES represent it? As one politician once said "if I want to speak to Islam, what is the number?"

There IS no head of Islam. It's a big hodgepodge of people interpreting it as they choose, from mosque to mosque and from country to country.

That is why it is so easy for people to deflect any accusations of Islam as a violent religion. Just find one person in the crowd who can say "that is not Islam" and then it is so?

If there is no clear definition of what is Islam...if there is no head, no leader, no direction (other than world domination), then who can deny or prove what does and does not represent Islam?

You can't!

All yuo can do is judge from what we see day in, day out in the news. And I think we all nkow what that is.

[Riverwind]

Someone very close to me has converted to Islam several years ago and I constantly engage him in dialogue about the faith. His answers are often aversive, frequently aggressive and commonly scary.

Ever had a conversation with a born again Christian? You would get a similar reaction.

When I asked him if he thought Iran should hav a nuke his answer was "it will ultimately be Allah's decision".

Christians use that kind of fatalism all of the time. Nothing can happen unless God wills it which means that if something happens it must be God's will. It is a lovely piece of circular logic which believers of _all_ religions fall into.

"I do not talk to any woman in a private room....an I will never look her in the eye....and when I speak to her it will never be with sweetness, but instead it must be firm and stern....a woman must not wear clothing which makes her a possible object of desire...."

Devote Christians say the same thing but use different words. Do you think the Amish women wear the long dresses they do because they are practical work clothes? They wear dresses because their religion tells them that it is wrong for women to wear certain kinds of clothes. No different with Islam.

If there is no clear definition of what is Islam...if there is no head, no leader, no direction (other than world domination), then who can deny or prove what does and does not represent Islam?

Why are you so obsessed with generalizations and finding the true Islam? What difference does it make. Why can't you just accept that some Mulsims interpret the religion in ways that are compatible with the values of our society and other don't. We have to protect ourselves from those that do us wrong and respect those that respect us. Blanket condemnation of Islam makes you no better than the people you condemn.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I agree - devout christians have just as ridiculous language.

Good thing they're not running around self-detonating and there aren't that many of them.

Otherwise we'd have TWICE the problem we have now

[sharkman]

Okay Dancer, lay it on me. Show me these standing orders in the Bible that command today's Christians to kill infidels. Pretty please.

Please also try to be accurate, for instance your earlier statement that it's a common Christian practice to 'attack' doctors and abortion clinics is so inaccurate it reflects poorly on your powers of observation.

[M.Dancer]

Okay Dancer, lay it on me. Show me these standing orders in the Bible that command today's Christians to kill infidels. Pretty please.

Please also try to be accurate, for instance your earlier statement that it's a common Christian practice to 'attack' doctors and abortion clinics is so inaccurate it reflects poorly on your powers of observation.

Speaking of powers of observation......take much out of context? Do I need put in <facetious> html </facetious> to be understood?

Let me rip a page from your book of sleazy tactics........

So then you agree that the common christian practise of attacking doctors and clinics to protect their idea of life is wrong and dispicable?

That was directed to the poster about nothing and was a rip off of a statement he made.

Anyway.......

I see you have changed the criteria a tad....I thought the question was standing orders to kill....as opposed to orders with a time limit like go forth a slay the amalilites.......

"Today's Christians....." "kill infidels"

So I will ignore that and continue, because you said please........

The statement I challenged was

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

So without further ado...from the living Bible which is the same yesterday today and tomorrow...standing orders to kill..........whether you do or not is irrelevant, the fact is they are there.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto[any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

(this one is cited especially by the christian terrorists to justify their attacks on clinics and doctors)

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

So let's examine this short list...cause there are even more......

Suffer a witch to live.......clearly witches are "infidels"

To give your seed to molech.....which is the sacrificing of babies to the god molech.....infidels......

And the rest are...honour killings......

[sharkman]

Okay Dancer, lay it on me. Show me these standing orders in the Bible that command today's Christians to kill infidels. Pretty please.

Please also try to be accurate, for instance your earlier statement that it's a common Christian practice to 'attack' doctors and abortion clinics is so inaccurate it reflects poorly on your powers of observation.

Speaking of powers of observation......take much out of context? Do I need put in <facetious> html </facetious> to be understood?

Let me rip a page from your book of sleazy tactics........

So then you agree that the common christian practise of attacking doctors and clinics to protect their idea of life is wrong and dispicable?

That was directed to the poster about nothing and was a rip off of a statement he made.

Anyway.......

I see you have changed the criteria a tad....I thought the question was standing orders to kill....as opposed to orders with a time limit like go forth a slay the amalilites.......

"Today's Christians....." "kill infidels"

So I will ignore that and continue, because you said please........

The statement I challenged was

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

So without further ado...from the living Bible which is the same yesterday today and tomorrow...standing orders to kill..........whether you do or not is irrelevant, the fact is they are there.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto[any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

(this one is cited especially by the christian terrorists to justify their attacks on clinics and doctors)

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

So let's examine this short list...cause there are even more......

Suffer a witch to live.......clearly witches are "infidels"

To give your seed to molech.....which is the sacrificing of babies to the god molech.....infidels......

And the rest are...honour killings......

Hilarious! None meet the criteria, but maybe you received some benefit from reading someting you wouldn't normally do. BTW, in the Bible, the word infidels does not exist. Good of you to try and insert it, but no dice.

[Riverwind]

Hilarious! None meet the criteria, but maybe you received some benefit from reading someting you wouldn't normally do. BTW, in the Bible, the word infidels does not exist. Good of you to try and insert it, but no dice.

News flash: 'witch' means 'infidel' in Christianity. Your statement makes as much sense saying the word Allah does not exist in the Bible.

[sharkman]

Hilarious! None meet the criteria, but maybe you received some benefit from reading someting you wouldn't normally do. BTW, in the Bible, the word infidels does not exist. Good of you to try and insert it, but no dice.

News flash: 'witch' means 'infidel' in Christianity. Your statement makes as much sense saying the word Allah does not exist in the Bible.

Keep coming with your newsflashes, but Allah isn't in the Bible either. A witch in the Bible is a seer or someone who does spells.

[M.Dancer]

Okay Dancer, lay it on me. Show me these standing orders in the Bible that command today's Christians to kill infidels. Pretty please.

Please also try to be accurate, for instance your earlier statement that it's a common Christian practice to 'attack' doctors and abortion clinics is so inaccurate it reflects poorly on your powers of observation.

Speaking of powers of observation......take much out of context? Do I need put in <facetious> html </facetious> to be understood?

Let me rip a page from your book of sleazy tactics........

So then you agree that the common christian practise of attacking doctors and clinics to protect their idea of life is wrong and dispicable?

That was directed to the poster about nothing and was a rip off of a statement he made.

Anyway.......

I see you have changed the criteria a tad....I thought the question was standing orders to kill....as opposed to orders with a time limit like go forth a slay the amalilites.......

"Today's Christians....." "kill infidels"

So I will ignore that and continue, because you said please........

The statement I challenged was

Well, assure all you want but the Bible still has no standing orders to kill, and Muslims still kill for religious reasons.

So without further ado...from the living Bible which is the same yesterday today and tomorrow...standing orders to kill..........whether you do or not is irrelevant, the fact is they are there.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto[any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

(this one is cited especially by the christian terrorists to justify their attacks on clinics and doctors)

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

So let's examine this short list...cause there are even more......

Suffer a witch to live.......clearly witches are "infidels"

To give your seed to molech.....which is the sacrificing of babies to the god molech.....infidels......

And the rest are...honour killings......

Hilarious! None meet the criteria, but maybe you received some benefit from reading someting you wouldn't normally do. BTW, in the Bible, the word infidels does not exist. Good of you to try and insert it, but no dice.

Infidel is a latin word meaning dis-loyal. It has a modern meaning that wasn't current in the days of Q.

The words you are struggling hard to ignore are Gentile, idolater, heathen, uncircumcised..........

And if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to assume you know what I have read and studied, because you will find yourself humbled quickly.

[sharkman]

Infidel is a latin word meaning dis-loyal. It has a modern meaning that wasn't current in the days of Q.

The words you are struggling hard to ignore are Gentile, idolater, heathen, uncircumcised..........

And if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to assume you know what I have read and studied, because you will find yourself humbled quickly.

Okay, look. This is simple. The word infidel is not in the bible. Even though you threaten me with your education, this is still true. I_N_F_I_D_E_L. Not there.

Also, you seemed to have missed it, but your scriptures, though colourful, do not meet the criteria. Standing orders for Christians to kill infidels, like in the Koran.

[Riverwind]

Also, you seemed to have missed it, but your scriptures, though colourful, do not meet the criteria. Standing orders for Christians to kill infidels, like in the Koran.

The word infidel is not in the Quran either since the Quran is written in Arabic. The Bible clearly has 'standing orders' to kill non-believers or sinners which is the same what a Muslim calls an 'infidel' in English. You can deny it if you like but any reader of this thread will see that your assertion that the Bible has no such standing orders' has been proven unequivocally false.