A primer on Muslim "Anger"

[Riverwind]

Figured you had nothing new. Like they did and we took over from them. And the rest is what they did but you never addressed what to do about Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Phillipines and every other country that Al Queda and other Jihadist groups operate within.

Al Queda in Indonesia and the Phillipines are local problems and not a concern to the US. Al Queda in Saudi Arabia has to be delt with by the Saudis.

Wrong. Invading Saudi Arabia or even threatening to was the worst possible thing imaginable. Being in a position to take action against Al Queda within the kingdom was completely realistic and, rather than suffering incursions by the US, took action themselves.

Your logic escapes me - Al Queda operates in Suadi Arabia there are only two ways to deal with it: 1) ask the House of Saud very nicely to do something about it 2) threaten to invade. Iraq is irrelevant in the picture.

And you figure having Saddam without sanctions sitting in the middle of this picture with Al Queda toppling the Saudi government would have added to security of the region? I didn't bringing up Iran. Want to start a new thread for that?

A stable Iraq under the boot of Saddam is infinitely better than the Jihadist recruiting ground that exists today.

[geoffrey]

And you figure having Saddam without sanctions sitting in the middle of this picture with Al Queda toppling the Saudi government would have added to security of the region? I didn't bringing up Iran. Want to start a new thread for that?

A stable Iraq under the boot of Saddam is infinitely better than the Jihadist recruiting ground that exists today.

Tell that to the Kurds. I don't really view people not from our country as inferior in rights to us. They deserve the freedoms that we have, and this is an effort. Is it working? Maybe not, but trying and failing (like Clinton would have us believe on Fox) is better than watching people die under the boot of Saddam.

Pragmatically better? Possibly. Morally better? Absolutely not.

[Riverwind]

Tell that to the Kurds. I don't really view people not from our country as inferior in rights to us. They deserve the freedoms that we have, and this is an effort. Is it working? Maybe not, but trying and failing (like Clinton would have us believe on Fox) is better than watching people die under the boot of Saddam.

The world is full of brutes that oppress their people (Tibet and Myanmar ring a bell?). We cannot possibly save them all. Iraq was 'chosen' for liberation because the US believed it was strategically useful to do so. There was nothing moral about it. My argument is that it was a strategic mistake to invade and, more importantly, it would be an even bigger mistake to force a violent confrontation with Iran.

If we want to have a dicussion about what countries we should invade for humanitarian reasons then Sudan and Zimbabwe come to mind. In both cases we could invade and help people without undermining our broader strategic interests.

[KrustyKidd]

Al Queda in Indonesia and the Phillipines are local problems and not a concern to the US. Al Queda in Saudi Arabia has to be delt with by the Saudis.

Local? Remember the Caliphate? Not a local problem when all of them are working towards that, it's a worldwide problem on a thousand fronts.

Your logic escapes me - Al Queda operates in Suadi Arabia there are only two ways to deal with it: 1) ask the House of Saud very nicely to do something about it 2) threaten to invade. Iraq is irrelevant in the picture.

They did ask nicely right about the time the Kobar towers were blown up. The Saudis did nothing. Iraq is relevent because it sits adjacent to Saudi Arabia and had a dictator that was in violation of five conditions of a ceasefire and could not be allowed to continue that violation.

The third which you didn't mention was the one that got the desired action. IF they had threatened to invade, we would be fighting a worldwide war with every Muslim right now.

A stable Iraq under the boot of Saddam is infinitely better than the Jihadist recruiting ground that exists today.

How is it a Jihadist recruiting ground? 65% participation in electorial process with Jihadists composing less than 10% of the insurgency I fail to see what you see. Besides, it is only a local problem right?

[Riverwind]

Local? Remember the Caliphate? Not a local problem when all of them are working towards that, it's a worldwide problem on a thousand fronts.

The Caliphate is a security priority that belongs somewhere below 'Invasion from Mars'. It is not going to happen.

The third which you didn't mention was the one that got the desired action. IF they had threatened to invade, we would be fighting a worldwide war with every Muslim right now.

You are missing the point. The US already has threatened to invade Saudi Arabia - privately to the House of Saud. That was all the US need to do to ensure they cleaned up the act. Iraq was unnecessary.

How is it a Jihadist recruiting ground? 65% participation in electorial process with Jihadists composing less than 10% of the insurgency I fail to see what you see. Besides, it is only a local problem right?

10% of 20 million people pissed off at Americans/Western countries is our problem. Islamic seperatists in Indonesia or the Phillipines are a local problem.

[KrustyKidd]

The Caliphate is a security priority that belongs somewhere below 'Invasion from Mars'. It is not going to happen.

Jihadists operating independently in over seventy countries and half of Saudi Arabia sypathetic to Al Queda and their goals and you find this far fetched? I would have thought that Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban would be an example for you but, they were from Mars as well right? Now there is something a bit smaller that maybe you can relate to; Jihadists just operating around the world is a threat period. That is not from Mars and is real in every sense of the word.

You are missing the point. The US already has threatened to invade Saudi Arabia - privately to the House of Saud. That was all the US need to do to ensure they cleaned up the act. Iraq was unnecessary.

It did not work. Oh, provide a link for that would you please.

Krusty

How is it a Jihadist recruiting ground? 65% participation in electorial process with Jihadists composing less than 10% of the insurgency I fail to see what you see. Besides, it is only a local problem right?

River's response

10% of 20 million people pissed off at Americans/Western countries is our problem. Islamic seperatists in Indonesia or the Phillipines are a local problem.

No, that was 10% of the insurgency. Not 10% of the entire population of Iraq. And, they are not Islamic separatists fighting a localized battle, they are systematicly attacking governments for a greater goal than not having food and clean water. Caliphate. Try to keep that in mind as they certainly put it on the forefront of their agenda, so much so they kill themselves to work towards it.

Edited April 6, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[Riverwind]

Jihadists operating independently in over seventy countries and half of Saudi Arabia sypathetic to Al Queda and their goals and you find this far fetched?

There are all kinds of wackos out there that talk about overthrowing the gov't in their spare time. That does not been they have any chance of succeeding.

Jihadists just operating around the world is a threat period.

Sure - so are hell angles and triads. We just need to ensure our police forces and security agencies are on top the problem. Invading countries will solve absolutely nothing.

It did not work. Oh, provide a link for that would you please.

I should have said I assume that the US made it clear that the House of Saud better clean up its back yard or face the consequences. I am pretty sure the House of Saud would take such a threat seriously after 9/11 and teh invasion of Afghanistan. If the House of Saud did not heed such a warning then I am pretty sure that invading Iraq would not make them any more motivated.

they are systematically attacking governments for a greater goal than not having food and clean water. Caliphate. Try to keep that in mind as they certainly put it on the forefront of their agenda, so much so they kill themselves to work towards it.

All the evidence shows that these various Al Quaeda cells are nothing more than franchise operations that are completely independent of each and simply use the name 'Al Queda' because it has good brand name recognition. Even if Bin Laden is still alive he is certainly not directing these groups. You are really stretching if you believe there is any sort of global co-ordinated effort to create a 'Caliphate'

[KrustyKidd]

There are all kinds of wackos out there that talk about overthrowing the gov't in their spare time. That does not been they have any chance of succeeding.

None of them have a global movement which operates independently behind them financing them and supporting them.

Sure - so are hell angles and triads. We just need to ensure our police forces and security agencies are on top the problem. Invading countries will solve absolutely nothing.

Hells Angels and Triads are into organized crime not attempting to recreate a Middle Ages super state.

I should have said I assume that the US made it clear that the House of Saud better clean up its back yard or face the consequences. I am pretty sure the House of Saud would take such a threat seriously after 9/11 and teh invasion of Afghanistan. If the House of Saud did not heed such a warning then I am pretty sure that invading Iraq would not make them any more motivated.

Knew you were just trash talking as invading Saudi Arabia was never on the table as it would be the absolute worst thing the West could ever do. So much so that there is no equal in sweeping groups such as Al Queda into power.

All the evidence shows that these various Al Quaeda cells are nothing more than franchise operations that are completely independent of each and simply use the name 'Al Queda' because it has good brand name recognition. Even if Bin Laden is still alive he is certainly not directing these groups. You are really stretching if you believe there is any sort of global co-ordinated effort to create a 'Caliphate'

Al Queda is only one group of many that seek the recreation of the Caliphate. Why is it that you discount this pivotal idealology when so many people who have never met each other are all willing to do any and everything including killing themselves to see it realized? As I explained over half of Saudis agree with this Caliphate recreation yet you think it is just a couple of hillbillys with belt bombs.

The Caliphate: Islam's Challenge to Global Order?.

A divine belief by the radical Islamic movement in the institution of the Caliphate as a fortress to restore Islam’s power and a vehicle to challenge the primacy of Western civilisation is gathering storm in the Islamic world and beyond. Sourced from the Koran and Islamic history, the Islamic movement may differ as to whether the methodology of revival should be jihad, reformist or political, but the goal of restoring the Caliphate is now uniformly agreed upon.

It goes on to explain how and such. In case you figure this is a nut ball writing it try these other forty three thousand pages of information.

[jbg]

We cannot impose democracy on any society. All we can do is knock out the existing gov't then cross our fingers and hope we end up with a democracy. Even then democracies still elect people like Hamas and Hezbolla so democracy is not a panacea.

Those elections, between competing factions armed to the teeth, were a hoot. Would you consider it an "election" if the main competition were between the CPC militia, the Liberal militia, the NDP militia and some "force du frappe" from the Bloc?

[jbg]

US more than likely has a contract to keep so many troops in country on the superbases anyhow but, if asked would certainly scale down. However, as the mission of the US there is to keep the goverment in power until it can do it themselves, I highly doubt they would ever be told to leave unless they were not needed (in which case they would be so happy to leave that you would have to run to keep up with them) so your question is moot.

Not moot at all. It may just come down to the government asking the U.S. to leave come what may. Just wanted to know if the U.S. would actually do it.

Oh, now I understand your post. As I've said, I regard the events in Iraq and Afghanisan as the necessary return of colonialism. Congratulations, Saddam, you ended your country's independence.

[jbg]

Normally, I don't just quote other articles, but this article says it all, and from the normally biased, anti-Israeli BBC:

Lynch mob's brutal attack

By BBC News Online's Martin Asser

In video footage that will remain etched on memories for a long time to come, Israeli TV broadcast the lynching of Israeli soldiers by a furious Palestinian mob in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

The film, shot by an Italian television crew, showed dozens of enraged Palestinians storming the police station where the soldiers were being held after they had been captured by Palestinian police.

Gruesome scenes were visible through an open window as the mob savagely beat and stabbed two or possibly three of the soldiers to death.

Then a body was thrown from an upstairs window. The frenzied crowd clapped and cheered as more blows were rained down on the lifeless figure by the crowd outside.

Rising anger

Four men had been travelling in an unmarked car that was somehow apprehended on a street in Ramallah. At least two were killed a couple of hours later.

The Israeli army said they were army reservists who had taken a wrong turning and blundered into Ramallah where their car was apprehended.

Photographs show some of the doomed men were dressed in civilian clothes and one was photographed before his death wrapped in a black-and-white Palestinian head-dress.

Anger had been brewing for the last two weeks which have witnessed the funerals of about 100 Arabs, nearly two dozen of them children, who have been killed in the violent uprising against Israeli occupation forces.

But this outburst of fury apparently stemmed from rumours circulating through the mob that the captives belonged to the feared and hated undercover units of the Israeli army which dress as Arabs and strike in the heart of Palestinian towns.

Earlier this week, the badly beaten body of a Palestinian, Issam Hamad, was found dumped on the outskirts of Ramallah. Palestinians blamed his death on Israeli settlers.

Wrath of Israel

Whatever the truth, the brutal death of these men - in full glare of TV - will have a lasting impact on the Israeli population and abroad.

Their deaths were captured on film with the same power as the last moments of the short life of Muhammad al-Durrah, shot by Israeli troops 12 days ago as his father vainly tried to shield him with his own body.

In the immediate aftermath of the killings the crowds on the streets of Ramallah were jubilant, even though they knew what was coming.

Israel's overwhelming military might means that, unlike the Palestinians, it has the option of a dramatic and immediate response to those who cross its path.

The inevitable wrath of Israel came just as noon prayers were being called.

Wave after wave of missiles rained down on Ramallah, as well as Palestinian Authority installations in Gaza.

The Palestinians called it war. An Israeli army spokesman said it was a limited operation intended as a "symbolic message" to the Palestinian leadership.

Israel holds Yasser Arafat directly responsible for the deaths of its men because his policeman did not prevent, and in some cases actually took part in, the lynching.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not sure why people still bother to post individual instances of violence when so many of us have already stated that we're not influenced by these stories. The same goes for complex explanations of shadowy conspiracies that will some day (soon ?) bring down the west.

[jbg]

I'm not sure why people still bother to post individual instances of violence when so many of us have already stated that we're not influenced by these stories. The same goes for complex explanations of shadowy conspiracies that will some day (soon ?) bring down the west.

Because we must not forget who is superior, in all instances.

[KrustyKidd]

The same goes for complex explanations of shadowy conspiracies that will some day (soon ?) bring down the west.

Complex? Every Jihadist believes in the Caliphate. Hardly Shadowy. Half of Saudi Arabia supports it as did Saddam, Kadaffi and many others. The Caliphate is a more religious variation of the Pan Arab thingy. Instead of being an economic and political force, it brings in religion and race along with it. Chomsky, Time Magazine and many others know this. Here are a few links of millions about this subject that to you is 'shadowy.'

The Gaurdian Knows About This Shadow

So does the BBC

So does the Washington Times (albeit through Oli North)

New York Sun

Oxford Reasearch Group

[Riverwind]

The Gaurdian Knows About This Shadow

Krusty, did you read your own links?

There is no point in comparing the political form a caliphate might take to those in centuries past. Institutions such as the British monarchy or the papacy have existed for centuries, but bear little resemblance today to what's gone before. A restored caliphate is entirely compatible with democratically accountable institutions.

Which is exactly what I have been saying in different ways.

[KrustyKidd]

Of course I rea my own links.

There is no point in comparing the political form a caliphate might take to those in centuries past. Institutions such as the British monarchy or the papacy have existed for centuries, but bear little resemblance today to what's gone before. A restored caliphate is entirely compatible with democratically accountable institutions.

Which is exactly what I have been saying in different ways.

You did? I thought you were saying there was no such thing and that guys were not killing people in an attempt to recreate it. Glad you realize that half of Saudi Arabia is supporting Jihadists. The above quote shows that people other than you know about it and are actually willing to accept it.

Welcome the Taliban morons. That's what the new Calipahte that you denied was possible or even a vision of Jihadists not even a day's posts ago.

[Riverwind]

Welcome the Taliban morons. That's what the new Calipahte that you denied was possible or even a vision of Jihadists not even a day's posts ago.

I never really intended to deny that the concept of a Caliphate existed within Islam. I was trying to say that the chances of it ever happening as a result of the violant actions of a few extremists is next to zero. If the Caliphate does emerge it will only happen after the Mulsims learn to get along with each other. The current state of Iraq and Afghanistan suggests that Muslims are a few generations away from that stage.

Try to imagine what Europe was like after WWI. Some people may have talked about creating something like the EU but it took 80 years and another really bloody war before Europeans learned to get a long with each other enough to make it happened.

[KrustyKidd]

I never really intended to deny that the concept of a Caliphate existed within Islam. I was trying to say that the chances of it ever happening as a result of the violant actions of a few extremists is next to zero. If the Caliphate does emerge it will only happen after the Mulsims learn to get along with each other. The current state of Iraq and Afghanistan suggests that Muslims are a few generations away from that stage.

The chances of it happening in Saudi Arabia have diminished vastly due to the hesitant actions of the Royal Family thanks to the pressure placed on them by the US having tanks on the other side of their border instead of being within them inflaming the Wahabbists as a rallying point. Nothing to be afraid of, they just c ut off heads and stone women to death. Quite reasonable compared to the policies of any western government if you are a Left Winger. They won't actually be in physical contact with you or yours for at least ten years if we let them do what they want to do. However, your RRSPs will thunder in and your taxes will skyrocket. Pretty interesting when relgious people control an oil based and global resourse. Stick with it, I'll make you a non right/left free thinker yet.

[Riverwind]

The chances of it happening in Saudi Arabia have diminished vastly due to the hesitant actions of the Royal Family thanks to the pressure placed on them by the US having tanks on the other side of their border instead of being within them inflaming the Wahabbists as a rallying point.

I don't see the connection. The House of Saud has known what happened to the Shaw of Iran for decades. They know that an revolution would leave them dead or out of power. There were managing the Whabbists in their own way long before 9/11. The trouble was that their way of managing the Whabbists encouraged them to strike out at the US. After 9/11 the House of Saud had to change the way that it delt with the Whabbists. It would done that no matter what the US did with Iraq - the House of Saud has been in power for too long to make a dumb move like that.

IOW. The Whabbists in Saudi Arabia were never a serious threat to the regime there. In theory, the House of Saud could have kept doing what it was doing and the oil supplies would have remained under their control. Anything the House of Saud does now is more to protect its world wide reputation and to stave off an invasion by the Americans if another 9/11 attack occurred.

Pretty interesting when relgious people control an oil based and global resourse.

Been there, done that in 1979 and the world did not come to an end. Saudi has nothing other than oil. They have no choice but to sell as much as possible as fast as possible.

[KrustyKidd]

Been there, done that in 1979 and the world did not come to an end. Saudi has nothing other that oil. They have no choice but sell as much as possible as fast as possible.

Yes, that embargo hurt them pretty bad. More than us. Now, imagine a regime that didn't care about the people selling oil for nukes. Then see who pays and what they do whith those nukes. Something like take over whatever country they feel like similar to Dubai, UAE or whatever. Increasing the finance to Jihadists in Indonesia or Pakistan More weapons to Lebannon's Hezbollah and Hamas. Whenm they become the USA of the Arab world complete with Taliban like morals I can see how this will benifit mankind. No worries though, not our problem, our childred will only end up fighting an entire soldified Taliban like world instead of a group that is fluid and only an ideal by half of the opprssed non democratic and regime led constrained polulace of the Islamic world.

[Riverwind]

Yes, that embargo hurt them pretty bad. More than us.

What you seem to missing here is that all Islamic revolutions are populists movements - even the Taliban. They only succeed because they have the support of the people. In many ways they are the exact opposite of Saddam's Iraq and Syria. No matter what ideological stripe a new gov't in Saudi Arabia might have it still has to feed its people. If Saudi oil goes to China then the US will be able to buy its oil from Africa or South America. We would have to pay a premium because the markets would be majorly spooked for a number of years but it is not going to be the end of the world as we know it.

If you want to talk about doomsday scenarios then I am much more worried about what happens when the aquifiers in mid western states run out. Canada will have millions of refugees hunting for water on its door step. That prospect is much scarier than the possible impact of a management change in Saudi Arabia.

[KrustyKidd]

What you seem to missing here is that all Islamic revolutions are populists movements - even the Taliban. They only succeed because they have the support of the people. In many ways they are the exact opposite of Saddam's Iraq and Syria.

The reason why Al Queda is so popular in certain countries is because there is no release for dissention among the population. They turn to religion and support groups that call for Pan Arab nationalism which, also calls for the removal of Aposphate leaders. Hardly the support of free thining people rather, it is a movement composed of people already in a mind trap and wishing to expand their reach.

No matter what ideological stripe a new gov't in Saudi Arabia might have it still has to feed its people. If Saudi oil goes to China then the US will be able to buy its oil from Africa or South America. We would have to pay a premium because the markets would be majorly spooked for a number of years but it is not going to be the end of the world as we know it.

The Taliban were terrible at feeding Afganistan but majorly good at controling them. And no, it will not be the end of the world as we know it but it sure will be the end of freedom for almost a third of it. Later, as they use the money they get to buy arms, provide aid to contries that they destroyed the infastructure of they add to their empire as that is the entire idea. I for one like Turkey, Dubai, Kuwait, Indonesia, Pakistan, Lybia and many other countries just the way they are and, while I wouldn't mind seeing more human rights there, know that whatever conservative Wahabbism brings cetainly won't be that. Instead of trading partners, you will find terrorist training and financing grounds.

I don't see the connection. The House of Saud has known what happened to the Shaw of Iran for decades. They know that an revolution would leave them dead or out of power. There were managing the Whabbists in their own way long before 9/11. The trouble was that their way of managing the Whabbists encouraged them to strike out at the US.

It's kind of like there being a popular movement within the country that is on the verge of being violent. To shut it down is to insite mass protests and possible insurrection. Better to allow it to simmer and bribe the more violent end of it into being quiet. That was their way of dealing with it. As well, when you refer to Wahabbists, I should inform you that the entire country is founded on the Wahabbist cult. The problem lies with the 'conservative Wahabbists' and that is the group that supports Al Queda and the Jihadists.

After 9/11 the House of Saud had to change the way that it delt with the Whabbists. It would done that no matter what the US did with Iraq - the House of Saud has been in power for too long to make a dumb move like that.

Why would they have to change the way they dealt with the Conservative Wahabbists? Appeasement hd worked for so long and there, it was still working marvelously well for them.

[jbg]

The reason why Al Queda is so popular in certain countries is because there is no release for dissention among the population. They turn to religion and support groups that call for Pan Arab nationalism which, also calls for the removal of Aposphate leaders. Hardly the support of free thining people rather, it is a movement composed of people already in a mind trap and wishing to expand their reach.

I agree. When the Jews were put in the concentration camps and 6 million were killed, there were lots of reasons for jewish "anger". That's why, after WW II, the Jews hung out in European cities, organizing suicide bombing squads rather than working. Hey. luxuriating on UN aid and blowing people up was just great fun.

[jbg]

Apparently, "victim groups and their advocates (link) seem to consider nursing "anger" to be better and more constructive than working to get ahead.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Negotiations is not the only option. Besides, negotiation actually means capitulation. Who do you think will scramble to do all what is demanded? It will all be acts of appeasement, a one-sided appeasing.

There is another option though. Brutal but swift.

The west is superior in power. Why wait for the enemy to gain the same power?

Learn from WW2. How US finally decided to end that war.

If eventually you'll have to resort to that kind of tactic anyway...why wait years before doing so? Which only means more lives getting lost?

Should we assume that these anti-western sentiments and sudden onslaught of unrelenting terrorism happen only overnight?

I tend to think that it was years of planning....and implementation. Why do all western nations have home-grown terrorists now? The beast had decided to test its strenght....it's flexing its muscle.

You make a VERY interesting point, Betsy. The answer is in yuor question though: the Mullahs, Imams and other zealots are very educated about our overtolerant self-hating society and they're COUNTING on our ultimate acquiescence.