Freedom Of Speech,An Iroquoian Tradition

[kimmy]

Some of this stuff is pretty funny.

Our society is imploding? Whitey will come to the natives begging for help within 25 years? I think everybody who has ever driven through a reservation is probably laughing out loud at the idea.

A simple question for the activists who keep posting this stuff here: why bother? You've said over and over that we have no say over the issue, that our opinions are meaningless, and so on... ok, if that's the case, then why are you trying so hard to convince us of your side of the argument? Why do you keep dropping by this tiny little forum to try to change a handful of opinions that are, in your opinion, meaningless anyway?

-k

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Our society is imploding?

Anyone who has studied the fall of empires and the collapse of entire civilizations in history will tell you that the precursors for collapse are all around you.

Your institutions are chaotic failure. Health, education and justice as examples do not work. Your health care system ignores the people it serves in favour of counting the numbers it generates internally. People are dieing from bad health care.

The sad reality is that your schools produce more failures and drop-outs than they do post-secondary graduates. Statistically, the majority of schools and students cannot meet provincial standards in standardized tests. Even graduates are illiterate and incompetent in simple math.

The justice system has more empathy for the rights of offenders than it does the victim. And even though more and more people are imprisoned for serious crimes there is little effective rehabillitation taking place. Instead those who graduate from your prisons go on to escalating crimes.

Your government system is corrupt and ineffective.

The previous governments - Conservative and Liberal easily abuse their trust because they could. Many of the Cabinet Ministers personally profit from their positions. Kickbacks and special favours are granted everywhere. Legislation is useless since their are the crooks regulating the crooks. As a democracy your entire system is a failure as the lawyers and business people who serve as your MP's and MPPs run the governmetn to their satisfaction and ignore the ordinary citizen's needs. You are over burdened with taxes and poorer serves.

Yes your society is imploding. All the symptoms of past collapses are there. If you want to believe otherwise then I suggest you go back to burying your head in the sand and come out when you feel a sting on your butt. That will be your signal that you can go back grazing in the fields.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

In the scheme of things your opinion does not count. That has always been clear. Your view doesn't count even towards what is discussed between our governments. However, you are still our neighbours and it is our goal to wish you well. Truth and knowledge does not come from the myths and lies that are told here by many to advance their personal bigotry. Others, who promote their ignorant assumptions do you harm in suggesting that we area conquered or beaten people. So in the interest of friendship and goodwill, we will defend the truth and those among you that can see it. We have always stood by and defended our friends from harm and by defeating myths and agendas we remove those among you that would set you aside as insignificant and attempt to rule over both of us.

What else are friends for?

O:nen

O:nen

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! BMax,

Archaeology has proven that people in the Americas were smelting metals more than 3000 years before it was discovered in Europe. It has also proven that humans occupied the Americas more than 10,000 years before Europe was populated.

If the early scandinavians were metal working they probably learned it from us.

Participatory democracy never developed in Britian - even to this day. Instead the parliamentary and other western democracies are primarily oligarchies with the cadres at the top clearly over-ruling any opposition from the citizens or by the rule of law. Our democratic systems is formally over 1000 years old and because the people make all decisions, it is still a government "of the people, by the people" - something Jefferson and Hancock thought long about and then borrowed to formulate the American Constitution.

O:nen

[yam]

yes.

Old feudal lords and lines of the old emerging merchant class. The former had to marry in to the latter due to the changing economy from agriculture to industrialisation. However; this is somewhat of a generalised view; but what sustained parliament then still sustains it today.

Real democracy is somewhat elusive wherever you go. And to be frank; it presumes a far better world order/society that we have now. Afterall freedom/democracy has to arise from a bedrock of an informed freedom to work toward democracy. Freedom =knowledge. Voting without knowledge is a set back o say the least. A set back however great or small is an unfreedom. Hence we can never really have a democratic society (fully informed) because the society it is supposed to work for are ignorant and ill informed. They relied on the church then the state now it is the media. All of whom are liars. It is only the truth that can set you free.

Are you saying your democracy (selective) honestly does its best to function in truth (i know your bound to have corruption but i'll just brackett these off for a mo to get the larger picture/goal/pursuit if you were free from corrupting influences).

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Our democracy is controlled by the people. All decisions and all agreements made by those we entrust as negotiators must come back to us for ratification. Citizens must be informed to discuss the issues at the community level or their opinions will not hold any weight. Community interest obtained through a true consensus of the community outweighs any personal interest.

People may still obstain from the process. But they are none-the-less engaged in the discussion at kitchen tables and in community halls or while waiting in line at the grocery store. When an issue hits the community then there is extensive discussion. Through discussion and presentation of truth and fact, people will often reach like-mindedness on their own. If there are disputes and disagreements, then they usually arise in the details of the execution of the decision and not in the prinicples or reasoning behind them. And where there are disagreements, then the process of consensus seeks to legitimize and harmonize people's concerns. Where total agreement cannot be reached (this process can take months) then the goal of the consensus to satisfy the opposition to a degree that they agree not to be an obstacle to the decision.

Balancing Individual Rights with Those of Collective

“Each member of the community is to be respected for what he or she contributes to it, so the opinions and rights of the individual are very important. Progress to wards any (economic) plan for Kahnawake must be made by consensus. However, no individual can come before the community as a whole. Dissenting opinions are of value when they contribute alternatives to flawed proposals, but the majority must rule in order for the chosen project to have the support it will need to work.”

From...The Economic Principals of The Women of the Longhouse, Kahnawake

O:nen

[yam]

Yep; iv heard of this acountability and consensual process before in detail. It is impressive. And for the way things are today if it were adopted on a larger scale really could do wonders. However; iv got one question for you and it is to do with the role of chief (whom has been selected by family ties). Can this person ignore all that has been advised and passed along from the people and house mothers to royaners and then the clan mothers? Is this person's voice the ultimate decision regardless of some kind of missing capacity. . . .or somebody is too selfish etc. Or can the community at large ultimately remove this selected one ( to the wilderness?) if not making the grade as it were.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Let me try to provide the condensed version.......

".....and it is to do with the role of chief (whom has been selected by family ties)."

Royaner are not selcted along "family ties". The are selected to represent the Clan by the Clan Mother. He must be married. So here's the twist.........People cannot marry within their clans, so all the men in a particular clan belong to other clans.

Us Mohawks have 3 clans in our Nation. So a Women from the Turtle Clan must marry someone from the Wolf or Bear Clans. Her husband comes to live with her Clan...family... and retains his clan. All the children will aquire the woman's clan. So the Royaner to be select is actually not from the Longhouse Clan which he represents. In order for him to retain his status as Royaner, he must represent the Clan he is selected to represent. If he doesn't the Clan Mother can impeach him instantly and replace him with another Royaner.

Each clan has 3 Royaner to represent them at Council. So at any one time no Royaner can hijack the position and pursue his own private interests. There ar many checks and balances in the system to prevent such things from occurring. And the 3 Royaner and Clan Mother ensure that decisions reached by the community consensus are relayed to Council who then seek consensus among themselves and return the results back to each clan for further consideration or ratification.

O:nen

[kimmy]

Your institutions are chaotic failure. Health, education and justice as examples do not work. Your health care system ignores the people it serves in favour of counting the numbers it generates internally. People are dieing from bad health care.

The sad reality is that your schools produce more failures and drop-outs than they do post-secondary graduates. Statistically, the majority of schools and students cannot meet provincial standards in standardized tests. Even graduates are illiterate and incompetent in simple math.

The justice system has more empathy for the rights of offenders than it does the victim. And even though more and more people are imprisoned for serious crimes there is little effective rehabillitation taking place. Instead those who graduate from your prisons go on to escalating crimes.

Your government system is corrupt and ineffective.

The previous governments - Conservative and Liberal easily abuse their trust because they could. Many of the Cabinet Ministers personally profit from their positions. Kickbacks and special favours are granted everywhere. Legislation is useless since their are the crooks regulating the crooks. As a democracy your entire system is a failure as the lawyers and business people who serve as your MP's and MPPs run the governmetn to their satisfaction and ignore the ordinary citizen's needs. You are over burdened with taxes and poorer serves.

Your "facts" about Canada's education system are, in fact, fiction. Standardized testing indicates that Canada's students are competitive with other industrialized nations. 3/4 of youth graduate from highschool. And of those who don't go on to earn post-secondary degrees, a significant number have gone on to lucrative careers in the trades and skilled labor.

Our system of government is corrupt and ineffective? Canada's government is consistently ranked as among the least corrupt in the world. Considering the size and complexity of the enterprise, Canada's government is very efficient.

Healthcare? World class. Social services? World class. Overburdened by taxes? Our taxes compare quite well to most industrialized nations.

And what do Canada's natives have to teach us about any of that? When it comes to completing post-secondary degrees, or even highschool, Canada's natives are statistically among the poorest achievers in the country, n'est pas? Canada's indian bands are notorious for graft and corruption and making band money disappear. What do natives have to teach Canada about managing a multi-trillion-dollar enterprise when many bands seem to have difficulty even managing their own little budgets?

I have a difficult time believing that Canada's natives have all of this insight into running a nation of 33 million, when it appears that they can't even care for their own communities of a few hundred.

-k

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Speaking of myths......you have more than a thousand grains of sand in your eyes....

In some cities the drop-out rate in high school is over 50%. When you remove those students that are in the special education stream, and those who are exceptional (and don't require traditional teaching)out of those statistics then you find that the school system is only effectively reaching about 25% of the kids. Very quickly, if you factor in the drop-outs and the special ed and exceptional students your successful graduation rate drops to less than 1/2 of the population. Not looking good is it.....

As for your government...it got away with the Ad-scam for many years without getting caught and even after they were caught with their hand in the bucket were vindicated by apathy and disinterest. The fact remains that those kinds of belly-rubbing goes on in your governmetn and if a politician goes into the system with good intentions he will come out with corrupt intentions.

The failures on reserve are the result of YOUR government since the Band government is a microcosm of the federal system. YOUR failures and YOUR corruption show up in those that are least able to hide it. That doesn't change how corrupt and ineffective your government is but demonstrates how deeply you are fooled into believing all is well.

The school system is geared to rote learning something that doesn't fit well with First Nations "hands-on" learning. However, those who have been able to bridge the gap have not only done well, but been able to retain their own way of thinking in spite of the mass conditioning you subject your kids to in the school system. People who live on reserves represent only 15% of the total population of native peoples so using them as exaples would be like saying that based on 25% of mainstream population having drinking or substance abuse problems, Canadians are drunks and pot heads. That can only come from someone is hasn't a clue about First Nations people and their issues. As well we can directly trace our community substance abuse and dysfunction to the residential schools and the government policies of cultural genocide. What's your excuse? Since these "isms" come from your society, YOUR people must have invented them, since none of these problems existed before the settlers first arrived and started interfering with our people.

Dispite atttempts to kill First Nations people off and dispite attempts t assimilate the rest, First Nations people are still intact, complete with our cultures, history and languages. On the other hand in less than 140 years from the invention of Canada, you have eveolved to care-less and apathetic political shrimps who would rather hide their heads in the sand than to try to rectify an injustice.....especially where it is cgoing to cost you deeply in the end.

Western civilisation is on the verge of collapse. You can't do anything about it. The best you can do is prepare your children for it so that they won't face the same painful expiration that you and the rest of those myopic city-dwellers will face.

O:nen

[kimmy]

She:kon!

Speaking of myths......you have more than a thousand grains of sand in your eyes....

Arrogance and condescension. zzzzz.... this kind of stuff is really about all you have, isn't it.

In some cities the drop-out rate in high school is over 50%. When you remove those students that are in the special education stream, and those who are exceptional (and don't require traditional teaching)out of those statistics then you find that the school system is only effectively reaching about 25% of the kids. Very quickly, if you factor in the drop-outs and the special ed and exceptional students your successful graduation rate drops to less than 1/2 of the population. Not looking good is it.....

70% of Canadian males and 81% of Canadian females get highschool diplomas. How many "special ed" kids do you imagine there are in this country to drop that below 50%? (is this an example of the exceptional mathematics skills you say natives possess?)

What cities have drop-out rates over 50%? Enumerate them for me, please. Or provide some evidence for this claim.

The only "cities" I'm aware of where this seems likely are tiny rural communities where young men leave school early to take up the family business of farming.

As for your government...it got away with the Ad-scam for many years without getting caught and even after they were caught with their hand in the bucket were vindicated by apathy and disinterest. The fact remains that those kinds of belly-rubbing goes on in your governmetn and if a politician goes into the system with good intentions he will come out with corrupt intentions.

Yes, we're aware that there is corruption and scandal in our government.

In terms of the trillions of dollars our government handles, the amount lost to corruption is miniscule. Our government is not perfect, but is recognized as being among the least corrupt on the planet.

The failures on reserve are the result of YOUR government since the Band government is a microcosm of the federal system. YOUR failures and YOUR corruption show up in those that are least able to hide it. That doesn't change how corrupt and ineffective your government is but demonstrates how deeply you are fooled into believing all is well.

You keep saying that natives are sovereign, and that your traditions ensure propriety and wisdom are maintained. You claim you're so much wiser, and you claim you're not bound by Whitey's rules. So how is it Whitey's fault when band councils can't manage their own affairs? Why don't you just use your wisdom and your supposed sovereignty to DO THINGS BETTER?

If your people are wise and sovereign, why don't you use these attributes to run your communities in a way that reflects your wisdom?

The school system is geared to rote learning something that doesn't fit well with First Nations "hands-on" learning. However, those who have been able to bridge the gap have not only done well, but been able to retain their own way of thinking in spite of the mass conditioning you subject your kids to in the school system.

And yet the number of natives who achieve success in Canada is disproportionately low, and the proportion of natives who become failures is disproportionately high. If your communities know of better ways of educating young people, why are young natives doing so poorly in life?

People who live on reserves represent only 15% of the total population of native peoples so using them as exaples

Why wouldn't we look at the reserves? Aren't they the only places we can look at as examples of this collective native wisdom in action? Do natives who have chosen to leave reservations and join Canadian society have any relevance to this discussion?

would be like saying that based on 25% of mainstream population having drinking or substance abuse problems, Canadians are drunks and pot heads. That can only come from someone is hasn't a clue about First Nations people and their issues. As well we can directly trace our community substance abuse and dysfunction to the residential schools and the government policies of cultural genocide. What's your excuse? Since these "isms" come from your society, YOUR people must have invented them, since none of these problems existed before the settlers first arrived and started interfering with our people.

Yes, Whitey introduced all manner of terrible things to the native people. That's a historical fact. What of it? Shouldn't your collective wisdom and community values allow you to triumph over these obstacles?

Dispite atttempts to kill First Nations people off and dispite attempts t assimilate the rest, First Nations people are still intact, complete with our cultures, history and languages. On the other hand in less than 140 years from the invention of Canada, you have eveolved to care-less and apathetic political shrimps who would rather hide their heads in the sand than to try to rectify an injustice.....especially where it is cgoing to cost you deeply in the end.

Apathetic shrimps? In 140 years, Canada has evolved from a backwater colony into one of the most advanced and successful nations in the world in every sense.

Your people seem to be the ones in jeopardy.

Western civilisation is on the verge of collapse. You can't do anything about it. The best you can do is prepare your children for it so that they won't face the same painful expiration that you and the rest of those myopic city-dwellers will face.

And more of the same arrogance and condescension. If Western Civilization is on the verge of collapse, your people are in as much trouble as anybody else, because at this point your people are dependant on that society.

-k

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Six Nations is not like all other First Nations. WE are soveriegn and yes, we do well for ourselves. Making generalizations about us based on some racist ignorant assumptions you have made about Native people in general is your problem, not ours.

Our sovereignty and our governance system are intact and functioning. YOUR government recognizes both, since it is attempting to negotiate a deal for people living on the Haldimand Tract as we reclaim the lands that were illegally settled without our permission. So I guess by your standard of measure you must be one of those drunks or pot-heads corrupting your society OR it is statistically probable that you came from a family of them......same thing.....

As a separate and independent nation we are dealing with these issues pretty successfully. Add to that that our justice processes produce a less than 10% recidivism rate (compared to Canada's 65% recidivism rate) we must be doing something right. The fact is that we are no longer going to allow you or your Canadian rapists and developers to contaminate our land with your demon seed. And to do it we have changed the Land Claims process to what it ought to be. We take and occupy our lands and let you prove you ever had a claim to it in the first place. Good luck on proving that to our satisfaction.......

You mistake our ability to live autonomously beside you as being the same as you. We are not in jeopardy of your civilization failing. Rather we have preserved the knowledge and the processes to survive on little and can requicken OUR civilisation to prosperity. Like cattle grazing in an arrid field you will die of either starvation or murder as you compete for the little processed food on your supermarket shelves. And not knowing the secrets to survival you will die, one way or the other. We would surely offer you a place but you must be willing to rid yourself of your ego and your me-first mentality.

O:nen

[kimmy]

I'm sure you'll get your settlement. At some point some level of government is going to get tired enough of the shenanigans to open their wallet to make the issue go away. I'm confident that for all the talk of traditions and wiser ways and so on, some amount of White Devil-man's dollars will resolve the issue to your satisfaction.

White Devil's society is about to collapse... I guess I'll believe it when I see it. I do have an escape route planned out, just in case. I'll just go deal black-jack and serve drinks at the new casino on the local reserve. I have no idea what the rest of these poor slobs are going to do, though.

-k

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Of course money is all you can understand.....we don't want it. We want the land back and defined borders so no more settlers will squat on our lands.

I'm sure that there will be some finiancial settlement involved somewhere, but the whole goal is restoration of our territories.

O:nen

[kimmy]

Well, I admire your optimism...

-k

[Hydraboss]

She:kon!

Relevence. You can't see it so it must not be there, right?

Since I was very young I was taught to ~think~ in Mohawk principles. That means that not only do I have the freedom of speech, but I also can exercise my freedom in thought and in action. I am not bound by any laws or rules. Instead I was taught to be respectful towards all of Creation, including people and to honour and respect my beliefs ...whatever they might be..... I am entitled to express those beliefs without the threat of being shouted down and with an understanding that those who would seek to limit my freedoms were the most limited among you (and in essence require my help the most).

As Canadians you are ~granted~ these rights but often fail to recognize them. Instead you are quick to point out the limitations to those ~grants~ and apply those limitations to others in your favour. It is no wonder that most Canadians are fast asleep where it concerns their own safety, political will or justice. Instead they have become so accustomed to be told what is right, what is just and what is secure that they can no longer do it for themselves. Your leaders perpetuate your voluntary suppression, by creating ~plausible~ myths to which you attach speculation and conspiracy theory. At election time they further confound you by making promises that in the end they will not keep, and even if they did they would have no effect.

When any one of you can think as well as a Mohawk, or any other Iroquois citizen (especially a Mohawk woman!), then you will like us, see that there really is no need for government outside of your own self-governance.....And you might be wise enough to see that everything you come into contact with is ~relevent~ to your continued existence. The fact that you can't is a thinking limitation to whcih you impose your failures on others instead of liberating them together with us.

O:nen

She's a con!

So you're not bound by any laws or rules, eh? What a load of shit. You can have your ass thrown in jail every bit as fast as any person in this country. You have your own government too, eh? So why are they leaving so many Indians in prison? I've asked you this a couple of times and all you ever say is "Your government has no right..." But my government does it, doesn't it? So why do you leave your brothers and sisters there if your people don't have to follow our laws? Are you just too afraid that you'll join them in their incarceration? Or maybe you are incarcerated. Who knows. Who cares.

So please continue with your annoyance trolling. You used to irritate me, but now I just laugh at you. There is no having intelligent conversation with you, as you will only answer those select questions that you have cut & pastes ready for. You're a parrot, and not a very good one.

Maybe we should ask for a separate part of the MLW to be opened entitled "Indian Affairs" and then you and your troll buddies can go there and impress each other. There are native posters on this board that hold meaningful conversations, like Riverwind, and then there are people like you.

Go away.

(...waiting for typical "You can not make us go away just because you wish it, whitey...)

On again....

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! Hymenbass

Perhaps you should stop reading. That dumb filter you have in your head is misfiring again and it is keeping you from recognizing the truth.

There are very few Six nations people in jail right now and those that are there are the result of injustice.

Things are changing. Get with the times!

Undermining the Rule of Law

O:nen

[Hydraboss]

She:kon! Hymenbass

Perhaps you should stop reading. That dumb filter you have in your head is misfiring again and it is keeping you from recognizing the truth.

There are very few Six nations people in jail right now and those that are there are the result of injustice.

Things are changing. Get with the times!

Undermining the Rule of Law

O:nen

She's a con!

Still won't answer the whole question, eh? Gutless. Coward. So, if you don't follow the rule of law, why are those six still in prison? Too afraid to have your "government" demand their extradition? Do you really have a government? Or just more of your "secret warriors" that you went on and on about.

And as for "things are changing", I'll wait and see if you guys can accomplish anything. The only reason the Canadian Armed Forces haven't kicked your ass already is that everyone is waiting to see how it will look on the world stage. Incidentally, which seat is yours on the world stage? UN seat, anyone?

I love playing with the minds of morons that can only selectively answer questions. It's fun, kind of like pulling the wings off flies.

On and on again!

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! Hymenbess,

I love playing with the minds of morons that can only selectively answer questions. It's fun, kind of like pulling the wings off flies.

Is THAT why you sit there masturbating while the rest of us engage in mindful discussion. You're drooling again....can I suggest a tissue to wipe yourself up?

O:nen

[g_bambino]

She's a con!

Still won't answer the whole question, eh? Gutless. Coward. So, if you don't follow the rule of law, why are those six still in prison? Too afraid to have your "government" demand their extradition? Do you really have a government? Or just more of your "secret warriors" that you went on and on about.

And as for "things are changing", I'll wait and see if you guys can accomplish anything. The only reason the Canadian Armed Forces haven't kicked your ass already is that everyone is waiting to see how it will look on the world stage. Incidentally, which seat is yours on the world stage? UN seat, anyone?

I love playing with the minds of morons that can only selectively answer questions. It's fun, kind of like pulling the wings off flies.

On and on again!

Tsi and Gay's method of dealing with the questions is to just keep moving from thread to thread, or opening new ones; it's their only method of escape every time some person with a modicum of intelligence throws a spanner into the creaking, wooden cogs of their tag-team propaganda war by making perfectly legitimate requests for information and explanations.

So far, I think, we're waiting for the responses to the following questions and requests:

1) Provide an image of a Six Nations passport

2) Provide a list of countries that recognise Six Nations passports as valid travel documents

3) State in who's name Six Nations passports are issued

4) Why are First Nations peoples subject to Canadian law and tried in Canadian courts?

5) Why are First Nations reserves and programmes supported by Canadian tax dollars?

6) Why is there a Minister of Indian Affairs to advise the Crown?

7) Why are there no Canada Customs agents or border guards at the entrance/exits to Native reserves?

8) Who is the Six Nations Ambassador to Canada? (I assume he'd be an ambassador as a sovereign Six Nations wouldn't be part of the Commonwealth)

9) Who is the Canadian Ambassador to Six Nations?

10) Why is Six Nations not represented at the UN?

I'm sure others can add to the list - but that's all I can think of for now.

Now... to wait for the answers...

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! Bambi,

Allof those questions have already been answered - many times over. You complain about the length of threads and then never read them.

I get it you are so used to mommy spoon feeding you that you want instant gratifiaction, right?

Go use the internet. I've proved links before that certify the answers I've given. If you are too lazy or lack enough intelligence to find them again then make it up with yourself.

BTW Answer this if you will Bimbo.....what does it matter to you anyway except to feed your need to troll?

O:nen

[g_bambino]

She:kon! Bambi,

Allof those questions have already been answered - many times over. You complain about the length of threads and then never read them.

I get it you are so used to mommy spoon feeding you that you want instant gratifiaction, right?

Go use the internet. I've proved links before that certify the answers I've given. If you are too lazy or lack enough intelligence to find them again then make it up with yourself.

BTW Answer this if you will Bimbo.....what does it matter to you anyway except to feed your need to troll?

O:nen

No, the questions have not been answered. Your links were simply points to other pages of babble propaganda. It was not I who complained about the length of threads.

I've provided a concise list of the points and questions we're all still waiting for you to address. If you genuinely want us to understand and believe what you're saying, kindly respond to each in a similar, simple manner. It shouldn't be too difficult for someone as versed in Six Nations affairs as you; one or two sentence answers will suffice.

[B. Max]

She:kon! BMax,

Archaeology has proven that people in the Americas were smelting metals more than 3000 years before it was discovered in Europe. It has also proven that humans occupied the Americas more than 10,000 years before Europe was populated.

Nonsense. There is no such evidence, only the presumption. In fact there is no evidence that indians even arrived first in North America, let alone where, when and how they actually arrived. On the other hand we have the great lakes copper mines that were mined four thousand years ago. The thousands of tons of missing copper that would have been refined never turned up in North America. It did however turn up in Europe.

If the early scandinavians were metal working they probably learned it from us.

Yes, all probably and more presumption. Theory and fact are to different things. The Indians may have dabbled in some kind metal works but just when is not known, and the evidence suggests to little extent. The extent of indian minining operations is not even known. Their refining methods of a limited technology could even suggest their arrival time in north america. Around the time of the first European bronze age.

[Hydraboss]

g,

You already know that he won't answer anything directly, because he can't. His only response will be sarcasm and name-calling which is the last defense of the stupid. He has no proof, he has no passports, he has no power, he has no lands. All he has is dim-witted sarcasm. Shame. I wonder how embarrased his honorable ancestors are right now. A war of empty words and hollow premonitions.

He's a con!

Come on Tsi Tsi, answer us a question if you please. Can't do it? I hear that every poster has that problem from time to time. Factual impotency is nothing to be ashamed of.

Provide some real information instead of the propaganda sites that you always link to. Where's the .jpg or .img file of a Six Nations passport?

Answer g_bambino's questions.

And on and on!

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

There is no such evidence....

Better tell Yale and South Carolina Professors then:

Occupation of the Americas

American Humans

It did however turn up in Europe.

It is well known that early explorers plundered gold and other metals from the Americas...Where else would stolen booty be?

The Smithsonian holds the copper artifacts...

Copper Smelting

Smithsonian

O:nen

[B. Max]

She:kon!

There is no such evidence....

Better tell Yale and South Carolina Professors then:

Occupation of the Americas

American Humans

It did however turn up in Europe.

It is well known that early explorers plundered gold and other metals from the Americas...Where else would stolen booty be?

The Smithsonian holds the copper artifacts...

Copper Smelting

Smithsonian

O:nen

Radio carbon dating is suspect at best and acknowledge to be infective behond 40,000 years. Even if it were not it doesn't say who it was.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...a-eie032102.php

What you call plunder is actually what the rest of us call work. I mentioned that indians probably dabbled in metals. Which ever way you cut it, there is no doubt what so ever that the white man was in the americas before 1492.