Judge Slams Indian Actions

[Okwaho]

To the pro-Six Nations posters:

If you are already a sovereign nation, I need to ask some basic questions (and by the way, I am NOT being facetious about this; I really want to know).

Essentially, what are your plans for the future?

1. What kind of economy will you develop?

As Tsi explained in another earlier post we already have an economy established.

2. When will you start minting your own currency?

It is being discussed although it is not really necessary as currency is not tangible it is only promissory.

3. What kind of legal system will you develop?

The same one that we have had for over one thousand years.

4. What about visas and passports?

We already have them and they're recognized in 36 countries so far.

5. How will you levy taxes? Will they be sufficient to support your infrastructure?

We don't need to.

6. Will you develop your own armed forces?

We've already had ours established over one thousand years.

7. What is your current population?

I've never calculated the populations of all of our territories.

8. What is your present unemployment rate?

I've never calculated the unemployment rate in all of our territories.

9. What about schools and universities?

We've had schools since 1877.

10. What about a parliament, legislature, and the like?

We've had the same one we are still using for over one thousand years.

11. What kind of social services system will you develop?

The same one we've used for over one thousand years.

If you can think of any others, let me know.

[Okwaho]

The agreements we have with the Crown are higher than domestic law.

The Crown is simply the word used in the Canadian constitution to describe the sovereign power of the state of Canada. The constitution is the highest law in this country and everything is subject to its terms. Furthermore, Canadians can change that constitution any time they want and the Queen is legally required to sign off on that change. The constitution explicitly states that the Queen may not veto constitutional changes even though she has the theoretical power to veto any other law. I really wish you would stop repeating this nonsense.

Keep talking! You're reinforcing exactly what we're saying about Canadas relationship with the Crown!!!

[geoffrey]

Who's going to pay your share of the national debt?

[Riverwind]

5. How will you levy taxes? Will they be sufficient to support your infrastructure?

We don't need to.

Why? Because you think that non-aboriginals living on the land will support you? If so you are dreaming. The Americans fought a war over 'taxation without representation' and you are delusional if you think that any other person would accept that state of affairs. One way or another you will need to tax your citizens to provide services to your citizens.

[yam]

From what i can gather they have that worked out already . . perhaps not for now but for the future when Canada will let them have their autonomy.

I think- and am not certain about this, they will have something akin to a socialist infrastructure.

Anyone care to clarify?

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Why? Because you think that non-aboriginals living on the land will support you?

No. Because we know how to manage our money and taxation is not necessary. The trillions in land values and the billions in trusts are sufficient to meet our needs. The funny thing is that if Canadians could live within their means like we do, there would be no need for taxes in your system either. Taxation is just a method that government uses to redistribute and share the wealth. Under our system we do not need a heavily bureaucratic government adminstration to look after people in our communities who might have hit a low period.

Geoffery, the national debt is simply a debt that the government owes to its citizens. Government has borrowed from YOUR pensions, unemployment contributions and taxes to prop up party favours and perks for the ruling cadre. Since it is owed to you, and since we are not Canadian citizens that portion (being the debt) is totally your government's responsibility to you. We're not part of it....unless you are suggesting that we should seek to benefit more by demanding your government pay our portion of the debt back to us too!

Politically yam, we cannot be pidgeon-holed. While our government system does lean towards protecting and defending the interests of the people, it also recognizes the needs to expand and adapt to outside advancements in technology. Socialism implies that we are people driven and people focused. Yet we are protective of the community, that comes through the people themselves as we see the basis of all survival and longevity in our government system has come from free will decisions and the common mind of the people.

This is one of my favourite quotes:

Balancing Individual Rights with Those of Collective

“Each member of the community is to be respected for what he or she contributes to it, so the opinions and rights of the individual are very important. Progress to wards an economic plan for Kahnawake must be made by consensus. However, no individual can come before the community as a whole. Dissenting opinions are of value when they contribute alternatives to flawed proposals, but the majority must rule in order for the chosen project to have the support it will need to work.”

From...The Economic Principals of The Women of the Longhouse, Kahnawake

Survival of the community guarantees the survival of individuals within it. On the other hand, focus on only the survival of the individual will eventually lead to the destruction of the community and eventually self-destruction.

O:nen

[Okwaho]

Who's going to pay your share of the national debt?

What national debt? You are indebted to us.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It is time to give the natives what they want. Give them their land. That land is defined as the land they are living on. No more payments of any form or kind should be given to native groups. All native lands should be self governed and free to conduct their affairs in the manner of their choosing. Natives want sovereignty, lets give it to them.

[Live From China]

Being from a military family, the armed forces answer (or non-answer) interests me.

If you were invaded, you could actually mobilize your troops and fight a war on the ground and in the air? You actually have the equipment necessary to attain air supremacy or at least stop an invader from attaining it? How many troops do you have? Would they all be willing to fight? I am sure you are thinking of guerrilla warfare here, but just because your ancestors may have been skilled at this doesn't mean you are. As your arms and ammunition ran out who would supply you with the equipment you needed?

Of course, all this is hypothetical, but I was hoping for an answer better than "the same one we've had for one thousand years."

The debate about taxation also interests me. If you have the means to actually eliminate taxation and support yourselves completely, why do your citizens now need money from the federal government?

[Chuck U. Farlie]

the trillions in land values

What, are you going to sell land to Canadians and then claim you never sold it and ask for it back in 200 years?

[Live From China]

It is kind of cool that you have your own passport. Is there somewhere I can see a picture of one?

Which nations actually allow you to cross into their territory by showing a Six Nations passport? Of course, I don't expect you to list all the countries.

[deirdrie]

criminals can not get passports no body would allow them in but canada

[Okwaho]

It is kind of cool that you have your own passport. Is there somewhere I can see a picture of one?

Which nations actually allow you to cross into their territory by showing a Six Nations passport? Of course, I don't expect you to list all the countries.

You can see a picture of it and read all about it on page 159 in the Time-Life Books, The American Indians series called Realm Of The Iroquois.

[Okwaho]

criminals can not get passports no body would allow them in but canada

That's not true! I know many Canadians of the same view as yourself that have passports!!!

[Live From China]

To the pro-Six Nations posters:

Could someone please answer my question about how the military force which you have had "for over 1,000 years" would fare in a "real war"? Exclude commenting about blockades in which an army has no air support and has its hands tied because it does not have "permission to engage."

The passport: which countries actually allow you to cross into their territory and travel utilizing a Six Nations passport?

That's not true! I know many Canadians of the same view as yourself that have passports!!!

Fortunately, freedom triumphs here! It is not a criminal offence to hold a different view that you do, Okwaho. If you believe it is, and you do eventually establish your own nation, your people are in for a very rough time. Eventually, your army will have to turn on your own people!

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

...how the military force which you have had "for over 1,000 years" would fare in a "real war"?...

Mohawk Warriors are still training the US Special Forces and Navy Seals. You wouldn't think we would tell them everything we know, do you?

O:nen

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Mohawk Warriors are still training the US Special Forces and Navy Seals. You wouldn't think we would tell them everything we know, do you?

There might be certain mohawk warriors training some US soldiers in certain skills -- most likely hunting, trapping, and tracking skills -- but how about all of the other skills that these soldiers must learn that come from a wide variety of sources (i.e. jujitsu for hand to hand combat, etc.)?

Don't try to pretend that the Mohawk Warrior is used as a know-all war/killing expert - they are used for just the skills that they know best. You're just daydreaming again about your 'Native Superiority'.

[Live From China]

Thanks CUF; I couldn't have said it better myself.

Tsi, basically your comments are a load of hooey. There is nothing magical about Mohawk Warriors; they do not have "mystical" military skills that no one else has. If any of them are instructors for the Special Forces or the Seals, and are teaching them things beyond tracking, etc., they obtained them as members of the US military. In short, they are soldiers first, and Mohawk Warriors next!

Members of these elite units are covert operatives, and although extremely important, they are just a part of any war. If you were invaded you would still have to face mechanized warfare and airpower. Yes, you could harrass an enemy with guerrilla tactics, but the costs to you would be extremely high. Even your honored Mohawk Warriors cannot stand up to napalm. And remember, you do not have the population to replace huge losses.

To think otherwise means you are living in a dream world.

[Okwaho]

To the pro-Six Nations posters:

Could someone please answer my question about how the military force which you have had "for over 1,000 years" would fare in a "real war"? Exclude commenting about blockades in which an army has no air support and has its hands tied because it does not have "permission to engage."

Many of us are ex-military of both CAF and U.S.AF. We can be ready and deployed to defend our ally the Crown or ourselves at any time. I served with a Ranger detachment of the 101st ABN. Oh wait a minute...I couldn't have. I'm a subject of the Crown!

The passport: which countries actually allow you to cross into their territory and travel utilizing a Six Nations passport?

I've already posted where to find the info you're looking for.

That's not true! I know many Canadians of the same view as yourself that have passports!!!

Fortunately, freedom triumphs here! It is not a criminal offence to hold a different view that you do, Okwaho. If you believe it is, and you do eventually establish your own nation, your people are in for a very rough time. Eventually, your army will have to turn on your own people!

The comment I made about criminals with passports was in response to the slight made at us!

Our Nation has already been established for millennium! We have true democracy not the watered down version that is really Capitalism that you and others advocate. Therefore I cannot foresee ever having to use our Rotiskenhrakehte on our own people. You don't understand that because you don't know what our government is.

[yam]

It is a little to brash to be bragging about military weapons and training. We all know the US would side with Canada and that it has the greatest might globally.

I think the whole point here really is to argue that despite size (numbers), geography, weaponry and more - Six Nations are not intending to buckle down and sell out like most other nations have been and are doing to the larger powers that be -

For now its mainly concerning legal jargon and denial over poorly written treatise agreements. However; these documents are protected - by merit of their own status with the queen and this is why they cannot and are not being swept under the carpet. Just by this fact alone shows validity and weight in these documents. . . .the money spent on the bureaucracy and legal machinery throughout this standoff is enough to show this is not all imagination from the clan mothers!

Dont forget the Canadian government is spending canadian tax dollars on this. Why you are not supporting this land claim is beyond me. You need it to settle one way or the other. The gov is spending canadian dollars on something it is not certain of. It is gambling with the notion that the clan mothers will simply give in eventually and will be "bought off". This is an old strategy done to trade unions - break them spirituallyand financially. Then they will have no choice but to accept what gov offers.

But there hanging in there and your paying for the hours, days and potential`months perhaps years (?) that the gov does not finalise this situation. it has to be a descent settlement since the international community iswatching this space. Canada does have to "save face" here. Hence the complications as opposed to simply rolling in the tanks as im sure it would rather do. So forget this chatter of weaponry. Lobbying the government to end this is `a far more realistic solution.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

As farmers and fishers Mohawks are relatively poor trackers....unless we have left a trail of beans behind us...and providing the birds haven't found our trail before we do.....

However, we are adept at "getting around" without being heard or seen. We are adept at changing the rules of combat and making the enemy play our game (to their loss and without knowing the rules).m We are adept at fasting for weeks - going days without water even - in order to accomplish our mission. We are skilled at low tech weaponry being able to make highly effective weapons without tools or metals. We are tenacious fighters never giving up when we are mortally wounded. THAT is what the US Special Forces and Seals have some of our warriors training them for. Our warriors are there because they are mentally training special ops forces to meet the challenges.

However, there is still lots of "mystical" skills we have not taught. It is unlikely given your easy reaction to fear, or your inability to detach from your visual senses that you could even understand many of the concepts. Those we reserve for ourselves. Those skills and knowledge kept the 2500 troops at Oka at bay, afraid of the backlash of the unknown.

Sure it is fruitless to talk about military invasion as an option. However, the question was "are we prepared?" We are always prepared and capable.

O:nen

[Okwaho]

Mohawk Warriors are still training the US Special Forces and Navy Seals. You wouldn't think we would tell them everything we know, do you?

There might be certain mohawk warriors training some US soldiers in certain skills -- most likely hunting, trapping, and tracking skills -- but how about all of the other skills that these soldiers must learn that come from a wide variety of sources (i.e. jujitsu for hand to hand combat, etc.)?

Don't try to pretend that the Mohawk Warrior is used as a know-all war/killing expert - they are used for just the skills that they know best. You're just daydreaming again about your 'Native Superiority'.

It has nothing to do with 'Native Superiority' and everything to with our connection to Mother Earth! As I've said before, me thinks thou pretests racism too much! You have all the earmarks of being one!

[Live From China]

To Tsi and Okwaho:

Mystical powers, connections to Mother Earth, maybe even shape shifting???????

Your credibility is totally shot. Or in short, you have just written another load of hooey!

As for your military service, they prove absolutely nothing. They just showed you served in the military. Certainly, you can point to the "Vietnam experience" as an example of modern warfare v. guerrilla and regular forces. Yes, the Americans eventually withdrew, but the cost to North Vietnam was huge. And lest we forget, the region was a vast hiding ground, their bush skills were extremely current, they had a large population to draw upon, and they were well supplied. And if we want to get whacky about it, they had a huge mystical tradition to draw upon. It didn't prevent thousands of North Vietnamese from dying!

[deirdrie]

mother earth they did not think of that when burning tires in caledonia

[Okwaho]

mother earth they did not think of that when burning tires in caledonia

A mere fraction of what your corporations have caused throughout the decades with mining, clear cutting, destruction of habitat leading to the extinction of species, PCBs, Dioxins, DDT, herbicides, pesticides need I continue?