Indigenous rights and titles

[Who's Doing What?]

I say, I have property rights to my land, and the Deed says the same, and that is all I need to know.

I don't care what paper you want to wave in my face.

I will not be forced to leave my land, with some 300 year old treaty I don't recognize as valid.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Even if it is a valid treaty, the land has already been paid for.

Now you are begining to understand us!!!

One HUGE difference though Okwaho.

I AM ACTUALLY LIVING ON THE LAND I CLAIM AS MY OWN.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Your people have already put up blockades, caused property damage and economic loss.

That was only to get the government's attention and get them to the negotiating table. Can you ~imagine~ what would happen if we were really pissed?

O:nen

[Who's Doing What?]

From what you are inferring I would think that if you were really pissed, you would end up with the Army and RCMP chasing you across the country.

[Okwaho]

Look buddy. Your people have already put up blockades, caused property damage and economic loss.

If you all start coming onto people's property with firearms and forcably removing them, shooting them or starving them out of their homes, you are in a whole new ballgame.

What property damage is it you insist on refering to? If you are refering economic loss in Caledonia let me enlighten you with a fact! Two thirds of Caledonias bussiness comes from Six Nation people. They cut themselves off. Besides, as a gesture of equality between the two communities your government is compensating them for their loss!

As far as use of firearms, Jerry J. Fortin is the only person that posted any thing to do with them. You're obviously making assumptions again!

[Okwaho]

I say, I have property rights to my land, and the Deed says the same, and that is all I need to know.

I don't care what paper you want to wave in my face.

I will not be forced to leave my land, with some 300 year old treaty I don't recognize as valid.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Even if it is a valid treaty, the land has already been paid for.

Now you are begining to understand us!!!

One HUGE difference though Okwaho.

I AM ACTUALLY LIVING ON THE LAND I CLAIM AS MY OWN.

And you refer to a DEED! You don't have to live there to have it!

[Who's Doing What?]

I don't go over to my neighbour and start telling him I own half his back yard.

[Who's Doing What?]

You don't either live on Nor have a deed to my, nor anyone else's land.

[Okwaho]

I don't go over to my neighbour and start telling him I own half his back yard.

Maybe not but, if he came to you and told he owns half of yours I'm sure you'd object!!! Then you would pull out your deed and start surveying property lines instead of just letting it go and "sharing" with your neighbour!

[Okwaho]

You don't either live on Nor have a deed to my, nor anyone else's land.

No but we have treaties and Proclamations that say we do!!! They're better then a deed because they give us TITLE to our land!!!

[ponyboy]

You don't either live on Nor have a deed to my, nor anyone else's land.

No but we have treaties and Proclamations that say we do!!! They're better then a deed because they give us TITLE to our land!!!

You might as well talk to a post Okwaho. if he started to believe what is true,he would have to question everything he has done in his life,trolls like him don't have the courage to take that journey.

[Who's Doing What?]

You don't either live on Nor have a deed to my, nor anyone else's land.

No but we have treaties and Proclamations that say we do!!! They're better then a deed because they give us TITLE to our land!!!

You might as well talk to a post Okwaho. if he started to believe what is true,he would have to question everything he has done in his life,trolls like him don't have the courage to take that journey.

Courage? What courage do you have? The Courage to take up arms against unarmed civilians and blockade access to where they need to go?

Courage to hide behind masks as you point guns at our officers of the law?

Courage to take govt. monies, and then try to weasel the land back you say was stolen?

The radicals on this site have done more to hurt the Native cause than any roadblock. With what has been said on this forum, the rest of us now know what the agenda of the natives really is. It is not Fair treatment. It is not simply MORE LAND. The Natives want ALL OF THE LAND, and the feel they have THE RIGHT TO FORCIBLY REMOVE CITIZENS FROM THEIR HOMES AND PROPERTY to get it.

[Okwaho]

Courage? What courage do you have? The Courage to take up arms against unarmed civilians and blockade access to where they need to go?

Like your army is doing in Afganistan or like they did in Somalia (where they bound and beat a sixteen year old boy to death)?

If you're refering to Oka (the only place there were weapons) we didn't walk into the town of Oka the incident took place and we remained on our own territory. With the exception of our own people there were no civilians near us. Our Nation was under seige and we deployed our army to defend ourselves in our home.

Courage to hide behind masks as you point guns at our officers of the law?

The masks were used so they wouldn't center us out like they did with Dudley George. Remember him, he was unarmed? Your a fine example of concern for your law. You feel it should be disregarded where it concerns our co-existence through agreements. Now you criticize us for defending ourselves. I suspect you don't have a clue what went on there aside from the what media put out.

Courage to take govt. monies, and then try to weasel the land back you say was stolen?

The money our communities recieve is from the land that was already purchased that your Crown holds. The land that was taken without compensation is land the stolen land. As you say, get your facts straight before you go flapping your jaws.

The radicals on this site have done more to hurt the Native cause than any roadblock. With what has been said on this forum, the rest of us now know what the agenda of the natives really is. It is not Fair treatment. It is not simply MORE LAND. The Natives want ALL OF THE LAND, and the feel they have THE RIGHT TO FORCIBLY REMOVE CITIZENS FROM THEIR HOMES AND PROPERTY to get it.

The more I read your taken out of context mindless dribble the more I feel embarressed for your fellow citizens!

Lets look at your agenda;

You're willing to commit National and cultural genocide on us in order to force us comply to your demand that we should be Canadians.

You wish to cancel the payments we recieve for land sold in the past and still feel you should keep it.

You believe Canada owns all of the land and none of it belongs to us.

Under your law when you fail to pay a mortgage or rent you are evicted. Refusal to vacate is followed by the physical removal of the former tenant. Yet you feel we are commiting some heinous crime for doing the same.

I can see what your agenda is adding up to.

[Who's Doing What?]

In afghanistan we are fighting terrorists.

You know, terrorists, the kind of people your militant brothers are beginning to become?

Sure a mask to hide your identity. How Brave!

No different than any other punk breaking the law, wearing a balaclava.

The money our communities recieve is from the land that was already purchased that your Crown holds. The land that was taken without compensation is land the stolen land. As you say, get your facts straight before you go flapping your jaws.

I hope you aren't one of the smart ones, because your movement would be in trouble.

"land already purchased" lmao

I thought all the land was yours.

So you even want back land you've been paid for? Ya right!!!!

[Okwaho]

In afghanistan we are fighting terrorists.

You know, terrorists, the kind of people your militant brothers are beginning to become?

Yep, I guess every Afgany is a terrorist just waiting to strike this great country. And what's your excuse for the Somalia incident?

You who rejects and disregards your own law concerning us calling us terrorists!

Sure a mask to hide your identity. How Brave!

No different than any other punk breaking the law, wearing a balaclava.

Or the Grand Imperial Wizard and their crownies right?

You constantly quip about breaking laws which one/s? Show me! We've shown you where your government broke their law.

I hope you aren't one of the smart ones, because your movement would be in trouble.

"land already purchased" lmao

I thought all the land was yours.

So you even want back land you've been paid for? Ya right!!!!

You really need to work on your reading and comprehension skills. I'm beging to think you're illiterate the way you keep taking out of context what is said and putting words in people's mouths. Go back and read it all again.

[geoffrey]

You constantly quip about breaking laws which one/s? Show me! We've shown you where your government broke their law.

Burning down that rail bridge, digging up our highway, assaulting police officers.

Who is going to pay for all the property damage? Your band councils, with my tax dollars? All the Six Nation's chiefs should be jailed. If a union leader, for example, encouraged violence and destruction from his members, he'd see prision. Why don't Indians, why the double standard?

[Riverwind]

Under your law when you fail to pay a mortgage or rent you are evicted. Refusal to vacate is followed by the physical removal of the former tenant. Yet you feel we are commiting some heinous crime for doing the same.

Under the _law_ teh gov't can choose to expropriate any property. If there is a dispute in ownership the gov't is allowed to pass legislation to grant title to whomever it wants.

I don't understand why you find it so diffult to understand that this is a political issue and the legalities are irrelevant. Six Nations has no power to compel the gov't to do anything that it feels is not in the public interest. Why won't you simply acknowledge this reality?

[Who's Doing What?]

1st of all I said "beginning to become", I did not say that anyone already was.

I would treat the leader of the KKK with less respect than I am giving you. But ofcourse through your eyes all "whities" are members of the KKK aren't they?

And then you wonder why no one wants to listen?

You can't even keep it straight. Frist, you say you own all of Canada, and the Europeans stole it, or atleast are using it without ever paying for it. Then you turn around and defend the money you receive as being payment for land. What's the story Morning Glory?

[Okwaho]

You constantly quip about breaking laws which one/s? Show me! We've shown you where your government broke their law.

Burning down that rail bridge, digging up our highway, assaulting police officers.

Who is going to pay for all the property damage? Your band councils, with my tax dollars? All the Six Nation's chiefs should be jailed. If a union leader, for example, encouraged violence and destruction from his members, he'd see prision. Why don't Indians, why the double standard?

Everything you've stated are defensive measures utilized to protect our poeple while under siege. The only laws that were broken was your own government breaking their own. Hell the way you're talking you sound like you must have been there.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

The rail bridge - a piece of junk in disrepair that burned. We didn't burn it down! ~Someone~ did start the fire but no one knows for sure.

Hwy 6 / Plank Road - is on our unceded territory. It is our highway and we can make improvements anyway we want. If we can keep the blockheads that incite violence away and protect our people by doing so, then digging up the road is definitely an improvement.

Assaulting police officers. Now this is a funny one. There were no authorized Haudenosaunee peace officers assaulted. There were some unauthorized foreign invaders on our land that were arrested, and perhaps in resisting arrest they were roughed up a bit but when you trespass and bring your armed American ATF friends with you into another country, you should expect to be treated seriously. There were no assaults but there were a number of deportations.

There were no Canadian laws broken as Canadian law does not apply.

O:nen

[Okwaho]

Under your law when you fail to pay a mortgage or rent you are evicted. Refusal to vacate is followed by the physical removal of the former tenant. Yet you feel we are commiting some heinous crime for doing the same.

Under the _law_ teh gov't can choose to expropriate any property. If there is a dispute in ownership the gov't is allowed to pass legislation to grant title to whomever it wants.

I don't understand why you find it so diffult to understand that this is a political issue and the legalities are irrelevant. Six Nations has no power to compel the gov't to do anything that it feels is not in the public interest. Why won't you simply acknowledge this reality?

Well I think Tsi and already flamed you on that argument. Your talking circles around yourself. The last time you told us you could get your government to change the law at your whim. How can it be political when it's law. If legalities are irrelevant then why do you continue insisting we broke law. You don't know what the hell you're talking about! You start of quoting the Delgamuukw case and now you say legalities are irrelevant.

You see that's exactly how you operate. You say prove it, prove it ,prove it and when we do you can't face the facts. You go into deep denial and concoct a string of crap to suit your opinion with absolutely nothing to substantiate what you're saying. That's your reality!

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

It is the Conservative way to make a conclusion first and worry about the facts after. Riverwinds circular logic fools no one. Like the Tasmania Devil he just digs himself a deeper grave with each spin.

O:nen

[Okwaho]

1st of all I said "beginning to become", I did not say that anyone already was.

And the difference is?

I would treat the leader of the KKK with less respect than I am giving you. But ofcourse through your eyes all "whities" are members of the KKK aren't they?

And then you wonder why no one wants to listen?

There you go trying put words in my mouth again!

Did you not read my post about Emily Johnson and Mary Jemison or, did you just choose to disregard so can continue with you hipnotic racism trance you always retreat to when your wrong.

You can't even keep it straight. Frist, you say you own all of Canada, and the Europeans stole it, or atleast are using it without ever paying for it. Then you turn around and defend the money you receive as being payment for land. What's the story Morning Glory?

It's not my fault you're illiterate and can't follow along. It's all there you just have to read it without trying taking it out of context.

[Riverwind]

Well I think Tsi and already flamed you on that argument. Your talking circles around yourself. The last time you told us you could get your government to change the law at your whim. How can it be political when it's law. If legalities are irrelevant then why do you continue insisting we broke law. You don't know what the hell you're talking about! You start of quoting the Delgamuukw case and now you say legalities are irrelevant.

You are completely mixing up my arguments with others. I have consistently said the that legalities are irrelevant _because_ the gov't can the change law at anytime. I referred to the Delgamuukw case because the SCC supported my position by stating that these issues cannot be resolved by courts but must be negotiated with give and take on _both_ sides. I have never used the argument that Six Nations should have obeyed the court order simply because it is the _law_ (although others have).

My arguments are consistent and logical and the only response you and Tsi can come up with is:

1) Canada has to give the land back because it is the _law_. (I have repeatedly shredded this claim by reminding you that the law is subject to the political process).

2) Canada is morally obligated to give the land back because it was stolen (I have shredded this claim by pointing out that any moral argument must also take into account the moral rights of the innocent people who own the land today).

Furthermore, I have never said the Six Nations should get nothing (although some have said that). I have simply said that any compensation must be reasonable and take into account the circumstances of today.

You can repeat your self-righteous arguments as many times as you want but I think most non-aboriginals will recognize that calling for a negotiated deal that repects the rights of all parties is a position that is ethically superior to a position that says that the livelihoods of a millions or more people should be sacrificed for the benefit of a few thousand.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! Riverwind,

There's that circular reasoning again.

The two refutes you made? Both of them were brought up by you as a defense to the "it is not a legal issue because your country has no jurisdiction" and "morality has no place because irrelevent".

You've lost it. Admit it and let's move on. You have no more possible answers to justify your wrong conclusions.

As Bugs Bunny would say "My you're turning a wonderful shade of ultra-maroon...."

O:nen

[Who's Doing What?]

1st of all I said "beginning to become", I did not say that anyone already was.

And the difference is?

The difference is getting smaller with every militant action. The fact you fail to see this is going to be your people's undoing.

I would treat the leader of the KKK with less respect than I am giving you. But ofcourse through your eyes all "whities" are members of the KKK aren't they?

And then you wonder why no one wants to listen?

There you go trying put words in my mouth again!

Did you not read my post about Emily Johnson and Mary Jemison or, did you just choose to disregard so can continue with you hipnotic racism trance you always retreat to when your wrong.

Nope must have missed that page turner of a post.

OOOOh i'm a racist again am I?

That is such a lame argument. That is what everyone starts to cry when they have run out of logical arguments. "Oh your a racist, because of this. Your a racist, because of that."

Does it make me racist to defend my home?

Does it make me racist to say everyone should be treated equally?

Does it make me a racist to say I'm not leaving property my family bought and paid for.

It is you who says you are entitled to things, no one else is, because of your race. Not me.

So who really is the racist here?

You can't even keep it straight. Frist, you say you own all of Canada, and the Europeans stole it, or atleast are using it without ever paying for it. Then you turn around and defend the money you receive as being payment for land. What's the story Morning Glory?

It's not my fault you're illiterate and can't follow along. It's all there you just have to read it without trying taking it out of context.

OK, but you are the one who said the money natives get, from the Govt. is for land that was purchased.