the root of conflicts

[Rue]

During the last several weeks we posters have engaged in communications as to the conflict in Lebanon. I have spent most of my time responding as to generalizations about Jews as people and their beliefs and as to misnomers as to Jewish history.

For me it has been very difficult because I can not understand why people are so tempted to discuss issues about a certain people without first reading up about them and their history.

Speaking as someone who lived in the Middle East side by side with Jews, Muslims, Druze and Christians and who personally knew people in the PLO, IDF and numerous peace organizations and speaking as someone who has witnessed terrorist attacks and humanity at its worst, I have found it very hard to listen to people who have no idea how the mind of a terrorist works, but talk about them as if they are rational.

Here is the sad thing for me. I think I speak on behalf of the vast majority of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze whether they live in the Middle East or elsewhere when I say they are abssolutely tired and sickened by war and just want to live in peace but do not know how to because the process of peace has been hijacked by fundamentalist terrorists.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind if we could take away the military weapons from terrorists, and they posed no threat, the Israeli Defence Force over-night would be back in its barracks and an absolutely extensive peace network of Arabs and Jews and Christians that already exists, could come out from the ashes and destruction and rebuild.

When I was 17 I drove around in a jeep with a medical bag as a volunteer with a unit I will not define. But I can tell you I am now 50. In those days the IDF and PLO made regular contact in the West Bank and co-existed. Not all of the PLO but certain segments of it. Moshe Dayan the former Defence Minister of Israel was respected by Arabs, even his so called enemies.

What people do not understand is that there was a time when Palestinians worked in Israel and Palestinians and Jews co-existed and we were headed to a probable conclusion where Palestinians would have formed a state in the West Bank and Gaza and then formed an economic union with Jordan and Israel. That economic union would then have spread to Lebanon and Egypt.

What many do not understand is, fundamentalist Shiite Muslims and certain other terrorist cells which refer to themselves as Muslims deliberately interfered and destroyed this co-existence and potential peaceful conclusion. This in turn fueled Israel's right wing and Jewish fundamentalist extremists.

Many of the settlements of Israelis in the West Bank popped up as a direct reaction to Muslim fundamentalism. The Israeli government then used these settlement sites as defensive outposts and that was a disaster and simply fueled more terrrorism.

Anyone who has lived in the Middle East knows for Jews and Arabs to find a peaceful solution they first need to be seperated and given quite some time to heal.

This notion that you can simply leave terrorists on Israel's borders is naive. These terrorists destablize not only political security with Israel but within Arab nations who they dominate.

The fuel of Arab terrorism has been anti-semitism. The fuel of Israeli distrust of Muslims has been terrorist attacks.

Unfortunately people in Europe and North America who have never lived in the Middle East and experienced the terrorism, violence, and corupt governments make generalizations and assumptions that are just not true.

For me I believe one day Arabs, Christians and Jews will live in peace.

I believe for that to happen someone in the Muslim world must boldly reject violence and terrorism and embrace passive resistance. If they can do this, Israelis who are also pacifists can reach out to them and form an alliance. It sounds simplistic but it is not.

Now I wish to say to you one thing. Most Israelis, and this Jewish Canadian know that Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza live in despair. We also feel absolutely helpless to addres the povery and despair and form an economic alliance to lift Palestinians from it, because terrorists won't allow it.

I wish and I pray moderate Muslims, Muslims who embrace peace and are not afraid of Jews and Israelis and have transcended their hatred as many have, speak out and let you know not all Muslims are terrorists, and while many fear and loath what the IDF have done, they know it is directly linked to the terrorists in their midst who they want gone.

I say to all Muslims, we Jews want a country called Israel but we want you to live in peace as well and when your children die and your people die, we do not sit there cheering. We are sickened and disgusted and demoralized and cry like you do.

So now I challenge you posters. How could neutral third parties demilitarize and neutralize terrorism so that peaceful people can come out and talk?

Is it possible to have peace until terrorism is curtailed?

If we intellectualize and try justify terrorism as a legitimate response of victims, how will these victims ever learn to heal and break the cycle of violence?

[Charles Anthony]

For me I believe one day Arabs, Christians and Jews will live in peace.

I have that same hope and belief too.

What people do not understand is that there was a time when Palestinians worked in Israel and Palestinians and Jews co-existed and we were headed to a probable conclusion where Palestinians would have formed a state in the West Bank and Gaza and then formed an economic union with Jordan and Israel. That economic union would then have spread to Lebanon and Egypt.

This is exactly what we see elsewhere in history.

If we went back about fifty years ago, who would have thunk that Japan and the U.S.A. would be friendly trading partners?? Nobody!

If we went back about one hundred years ago, who would have thunk that France and Germany would be back at business?? Nobody! However, they did and they drove the development of the European Union.

If we went back a few more hundred years ago, who would have thunk that France and England would be side-by side in battle against Germany?? Nobody!

The reality is that when heads cool off, as suggested "to find a peaceful solution they first need to be seperated and given quite some time to heal" people of all races do not want to hate eachother. It is easier to be at peace with other people even if you disagree 100% with their religion.

[jdobbin]

During the last several weeks we posters have engaged in communications as to the conflict in Lebanon. I have spent most of my time responding as to generalizations about Jews as people and their beliefs and as to misnomers as to Jewish history.

So now I challenge you posters. How could neutral third parties demilitarize and neutralize terrorism so that peaceful people can come out and talk?

Is it possible to have peace until terrorism is curtailed?

If we intellectualize and try justify terrorism as a legitimate response of victims, how will these victims ever learn to heal and break the cycle of violence?

Good comment.

[Melanie_]

Rue...

I wish I had answers to your questions; terrorism has taken over, and those on both sides who actually are willing to work something - anything - out are drowned out by the cycle of violence and retribution. We can't justify terrorism as a legitimate response, but we still have to find a way to recognize and remedy legitimate grievances.

Thank you for your consistent rationality and clear analysis. I find that I'm developing a much more nuanced understanding of the Isreal/Palestine conflict through the discussion you and others have engaged in here - so if you feel frustrated when you are challenged to explain in more detail, remember that there are those of us who appreciate the effort. I still don't agree 100% with Isreal's actions, but I understand better the motivations and circumstances behind them.

[Rue]

Rue...

I wish I had answers to your questions; terrorism has taken over, and those on both sides who actually are willing to work something - anything - out are drowned out by the cycle of violence and retribution. We can't justify terrorism as a legitimate response, but we still have to find a way to recognize and remedy legitimate grievances.

Thank you for your consistent rationality and clear analysis. I find that I'm developing a much more nuanced understanding of the Isreal/Palestine conflict through the discussion you and others have engaged in here - so if you feel frustrated when you are challenged to explain in more detail, remember that there are those of us who appreciate the effort. I still don't agree 100% with Isreal's actions, but I understand better the motivations and circumstances behind them.

Thank you for your kind words and believe it or not, I am not 100% in agreement with what Israel has done or does either. If it means anything to you, Israel may be unanimous in believing it must defend itself, but it spends considerable time debating the appropriate response and has always wrestled with what to do.

[jdobbin]

Thank you for your kind words and believe it or not, I am not 100% in agreement with what Israel has done or does either. If it means anything to you, Israel may be unanimous in believing it must defend itself, but it spends considerable time debating the appropriate response and has always wrestled with what to do.

As it seems to be doing now. They are debating the military intelligence that said that Hezbollah could be wiped out in little over a week. They were caught off guard by the rockets. They are very wary of getting bogged down in Lebanon for years. And they worry that other parties could be drawn into the war.

It is a scary time in Israel. And a ceasefire could be a long ways off given that Hezbollah might not agree and continue to wage war.

[daddyhominum]

So now I challenge you posters. How could neutral third parties demilitarize and neutralize terrorism so that peaceful people can come out and talk?

Is it possible to have peace until terrorism is curtailed?

Your first question on neutrality begs the question: Can one be neutral about terrorism?

I note that all the nations of the world have condemned terrorism but many countries supply armaments, money and training to terrorism. The rationalization is simply to define terrorism as freedom fighters. IMO, there is no hope that there can ever be neutrality with respect to terrorism because it is the 'winner' who defines terrorism. The Irgun were terrorist and freedom fighters.

The second question on peace with terrorism is possible to answer in the positive. Peace among nations has been best served by a 'balance of power' between contesting entities. Current strategy in Israel is to make the attacks on them so costly that the opposition can not afford them. The terrorists have the same strategy; to make the defence of Israel too costly and weaken the national will to fight.

In the fifties, sixties and seventies the balance of terror existed between the USSR and the USA to give a kind of peace. Eventually, the USSR could no longer sustain the cost of maintaining its terror and was forced to change its ways.

It seems possible that the price paid for terrorism is not high enough to stop it. Already aid is pouring into Lebanon as the Western democracies again undertake to save people from the consequences of their own actions. The effect is to mitigate the price paid and to render meaningless the efforts of the IDF over time.

IMO, those nations that support terrorism must feel the full consequence of their acts if a balance that favours peace or a needed change is to occur. As we were with the dictatorship of the USSR, the west should be with respect to all nations supporting violence toward Israel. Germany and Japan were reduced to rubble before they surrendered but now they are peaceful.

I don't like it. I wish people and nations could sit and talk out differences. But it doesn't work. Neutrality won't stop terrorism but the so-called 'Powell-doctrine' will.

[betsy]

So now I challenge you posters. How could neutral third parties demilitarize and neutralize terrorism so that peaceful people can come out and talk?

The UN need to go in and take the responsibility which Lebanon fails to undertake of dismantling Hezbollah.

There is no question that Hezbollah had initiated the hostility - with the intent to annihilate Israel. Faced with this ultimate intent, there can never be any peace if one side had decided the only way to have it is to eliminate the other.

Ceasefire will only give Hezbollah the chance to strenghten themselves. It will not endure. Besides, negotiating with a terrorist group only gives legitimacy to such groups. Since it is the thorn on the sides of both Lebanon and Israel...Hezbollah has to be removed once and for all.

Lebanon must be forced to face up and be on the side of the UN in getting rid of Hezbollah.