We'll follow the leaders

[dances with fishes]

OF course the people don't want war,but after all it's the leaders of the country who

determine the policy,and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along wether

it's a democracy,fascist dictatorship,or a parliment,or a communist dictatorship. Voice

or no Voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders All you have

to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism,

and exposing the country to greater danger.

These tacktics have been used since man first got together

Well I guess being dragged along is part and parcel of the whole kaboodle when you're a citizen and/or part of a group. That's what it is to choose and have a leader to lead. There can't be all of us planning and cooking in the kitchen.

I guess the Jews being dragged to concentration camps and gas chambers must've thought they were living a nightmare...and that's putting it mildly.

Or those who had lived in fear and repression under the taliban rule. I'm sure the women there took it as just another day in paradise being a chattel, thankful and grateful for each day of not getting whipped or beaten. Of course those kind of existence couldn't possibly come to these shores. All those terrorists acts against the West...those are just figments of our imagination. Too much time on our hands. We'd continue to enjoy life as we know it...for generations to come.

Too bad there aren't too many uninhabited islands so one can become a Crusoe...hope not to be discovered and "colonized."

satan takes Jesus up to the highest mountain and shows him all THE kingdoms of the

world and say's, if you bend your knee, and serve me, all these i will give thee

That being said, who do you think owns the kingdoms?

Even eve had a choice to listen to the serpent or not to that is free will and it comes from

the Great Spirit. If you do not have a choice it is not.Only the darkness conceals a matter

peace

[jdobbin]

With the aid of millions of dollars in massiving polling to let him know which way the winds were blowing both inside and outside the party.

Dunno. The Australians sent troops to Iraq. I don't believe they've even taken one casualty. Certainly they've had far fewer than we have in Afghanistan.

Certainly, under the freedom of information act, anyone, including the taxpayer lobby could find evidence of massive polling to find out how much was spent on polling regarding a fight in Iraq. There wasn't anything revealed of that nature. And if you recall what the privately funded polls were saying, they said a majority of Canadians were supportive of removing Saddam. There were some doubts in Canada regarding the speed of the attack given that the U.N. was there, but generally Colin Powell's speach in the U.N. impressed Canadians.

The Australians lost two soldiers in the initial attack and were one of the first countries to leave because their soldiers were needed for various Pacific peacekeeping missions. They have not been there for the insurgency where the majority of the killing has taken place.

If Harper had been in power, Canada would have been in Iraq and I doubt we would have gotten out earlier than the Australians.

[Argus]

With the aid of millions of dollars in massiving polling to let him know which way the winds were blowing both inside and outside the party.

Dunno. The Australians sent troops to Iraq. I don't believe they've even taken one casualty. Certainly they've had far fewer than we have in Afghanistan.

Certainly, under the freedom of information act, anyone, including the taxpayer lobby could find evidence of massive polling to find out how much was spent on polling regarding a fight in Iraq. There wasn't anything revealed of that nature.

Says who? I haven't read anything about investigations into Liberal polling during their time in office.

And if you recall what the privately funded polls were saying, they said a majority of Canadians were supportive of removing Saddam.

The polls showed that most of the support for going into Iraq came from conservatives - who were unlikely to vote Liberal anyway, and that the Liberals core support of mushy leftists was violently against going into Iraq.

The Australians lost two soldiers in the initial attack and were one of the first countries to leave because their soldiers were needed for various Pacific peacekeeping missions. They have not been there for the insurgency where the majority of the killing has taken place.

I don't know that Australia ever actually left Iraq. The only references I could find during a cursury check were to a force of 470 troops sent to Iraq in February of last year, and rotated twice on a mission destined to go until at least 2007

[jdobbin]

Says who? I haven't read anything about investigations into Liberal polling during their time in office.

The polls showed that most of the support for going into Iraq came from conservatives - who were unlikely to vote Liberal anyway, and that the Liberals core support of mushy leftists was violently against going into Iraq.

I don't know that Australia ever actually left Iraq. The only references I could find during a cursury check were to a force of 470 troops sent to Iraq in February of last year, and rotated twice on a mission destined to go until at least 2007

Exactly. There wasn't anything to report on massive government polling. You said there was and I said the watchdogs found no evidence of it or they would hsve reported it.

A majority of Canadians supported action in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4286073.stm

Australia initially had 2000 in the country. They have placed troops back in the country but mostly in Southern Iraq where they protect Japanese who are safely out of harrm's way rebuilding infrastucture.

[betsy]

OF course the people don't want war,but after all it's the leaders of the country who

determine the policy,and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along wether

it's a democracy,fascist dictatorship,or a parliment,or a communist dictatorship. Voice

or no Voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders All you have

to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism,

and exposing the country to greater danger.

These tacktics have been used since man first got together

Well I guess being dragged along is part and parcel of the whole kaboodle when you're a citizen and/or part of a group. That's what it is to choose and have a leader to lead. There can't be all of us planning and cooking in the kitchen.

I guess the Jews being dragged to concentration camps and gas chambers must've thought they were living a nightmare...and that's putting it mildly.

Or those who had lived in fear and repression under the taliban rule. I'm sure the women there took it as just another day in paradise being a chattel, thankful and grateful for each day of not getting whipped or beaten. Of course those kind of existence couldn't possibly come to these shores. All those terrorists acts against the West...those are just figments of our imagination. Too much time on our hands. We'd continue to enjoy life as we know it...for generations to come.

Too bad there aren't too many uninhabited islands so one can become a Crusoe...hope not to be discovered and "colonized."

Boy Jews dragged to the concentration camps, well they could have come to North America and many applied but were turned down. Canadians should not be so hypocritical. Bush is slowly turning the US into a dictatorship and Harper would gladly do the same.

If I'm not mistaken...the US dragged its heels for too long before getting involved in that war and going right smack in the middle of it, right? That Jews were reportedly being systematically slaughtered was just so diabolical that it was not taken seriously. So by the time the US joined the war....how many Jews had already perished?

Perhaps somebody learned a lesson from that.

As for dictatorship...okay, let's assume you're right. I'd still prefer the dictatorship of Bush and Harper to that of the Taliban rule! I surely wouldn't look good in a burqua...and I love pork!

[dances with fishes]

[quote name=

If I'm not mistaken...the US dragged its heels for too long before getting involved in that war and going right smack in the middle of it, right? That Jews were reportedly being systematically slaughtered was just so diabolical that it was not taken seriously. So by the time the US joined the war....how many Jews had already perished?

Perhaps somebody learned a lesson from that.

As for dictatorship...okay, let's assume you're right. I'd still prefer the dictatorship of Bush and Harper to that of the Taliban rule! I surely wouldn't look good in a burqua...and I love pork!

The world stood up to hitler, because he was trying to force his ideas upon them. Now we have someone else doing the same thing {And by peace he shall destroy many}every one is not supposed to be or think the same .quit looking for some one to lead and think for your selves.The education system was set up to get every one to think and act the same and to seperate you from the SPIRIT.

The new world order, is the old world order, where "all" women will become the property of there husbands

As I sit here and ponder why, the whole world has gone awry.

Did you know,that in day's gone by,people did ask,

that same question,"WHY" just before the whole world dies.

It is because we all believe the same stupid lies.

Fed to us by the Lord of the Flies.

Our politicians, are all very good magicians,

along with.bankers, lawyers, judges, and physicians.

Promised riches and power beyond their scope.

but in them.there is no hope.

Extravagance surrounds them all,even the Pope.

In God is where you should put your hope,

not in the false father the pope.

Jesus warns us of that sin,

do not call anyone on earth "father" but Him.

Everyday we take his name in vain,

yet he endures the shame.

Seeing his children doing evil for personal gain,

then we blame him, for our pain.

There is a whole book about this very same game,

if people would just read it,

they would see, we are all to blame.

For not following Gods ways, and love one another,

He will pit us, brother against brother.

Where not Juda and Israel of the same blood?

Should God destroy the world agian with a flood?

Their must be more evil in the world now,

than there was back then,

When God looked in on the children of men.

All this and more, it's right before your eyes,

So "why" does everyone still believe the "lies"?

and allow governments to take innocent lives.

Under the desguise of peace,

He shall destroy many, are the words of Daniel.

For what is written who can deny,

Only those who follow, the "Lord of the Flies".

peace

[betsy]

The world stood up to hitler, because he was trying to force his ideas upon them. Now we have someone else doing the same thing {And by peace he shall destroy many}every one is not supposed to be or think the same .quit looking for some one to lead and think for your selves.The education system was set up to get every one to think and act the same and to seperate you from the SPIRIT.

The new world order, is the old world order, where "all" women will become the property of there husbands

Was any war ever won by an army led by no one?

Was there ever any civilization that thrived with no one to lead?

It is a romantic notion in a way....but got to face it, quite comical too. Here I am (couldn't help but grin), envisioning hordes of people running here and there and everywhere, each one thinking for himself, helter skelter while the enemy is at the door......kinda remind me of my daycare on a really bad day.

[watching&waiting]

The idea of society in its self is where a group oof people are lead by a leader to form a place where the agreed upon rules and ways of life are set forth by the leaders. As these leaders change so will the directions of that society. I would wonder at earlier times when some societies were small and unable to defend themselves from the will and ways of larger societies, and then these were assimilated in to larger group. It does not mean it was the better group only the more pwerful one. If all of Europe were to suddenly have the same thought s and societal views, it would be possible to amalgamate them all into on country and one system. They are growing toward that, but have a long way to go. One day there may be a person who would be seen by all to be a natural leader to all of them and maybe then.

But to answer your staement about peop,le running around leader less, yes that did happen I am sure but very long ago. The very nature of society has always been based upon leadership of one or even by concil of a few. There are no one man societies that I can think of.

[dances with fishes]

The world stood up to hitler, because he was trying to force his ideas upon them. Now we have someone else doing the same thing {And by peace he shall destroy many}every one is not supposed to be or think the same .quit looking for some one to lead and think for your selves.The education system was set up to get every one to think and act the same and to seperate you from the SPIRIT.

The new world order, is the old world order, where "all" women will become the property of there husbands

Was any war ever won by an army led by no one?

Was there ever any civilization that thrived with no one to lead?

It is a romantic notion in a way....but got to face it, quite comical too. Here I am (couldn't help but grin), envisioning hordes of people running here and there and everywhere, each one thinking for himself, helter skelter while the enemy is at the door......kinda remind me of my daycare on a really bad day.

Your words reveal many secrets! what colour shirt do you wear?

Try to justify one dictator over another.

Here is a poem i found in an old news paper, it is not totaly here it was on two pages

i don't have the last part or the persons name.It makes me cry every time i read it.

So who ever this belongs to{ good one my friend} and sorry for your pain

THE North American cotinent thrived under the great law, until the europeans arrived

the new covenant the great spirit wrote the laws in our hearts. IT IS NOT man made laws that keep the people from killing one another It is man that kills man.This is why the natives do not accept canadas laws

WAR: The glory of it all…

They said I should go. And so I did.

Having reached eighteen years of age,

I rushed off to join in the glory of war and fight for my country.

After all, did “Owe it” to my country.

They taught me how to kill with every imaginable weapon.

They trained me and I became strong. One day my commanding

officer grimly announced, “You’re ready.” Ready to die or ready to kill,

he didn’t say. And so I left.

My mother cried, while my father looked on with pride.

His son was a man. All too soon, I was at the front lines.

My first mission was to take the enemy stronghold just 8 miles away.

My men were confident. They were men. They were ready to kill.

And so we attacked. The roar was deafening. Beside me my best friend

twisted grotesquely in his death throes. But I pushed on. I was fighting for my country. From nowhere the enemy appeared and I instinctively fired. I watched in horror as the meat exploded. But I pushed on, I was fighting for ~

I had been trapped for four days now. The flies and maggots buzzed with joy in the heat. The unmistakable aroma of rotting meat filled the air. But I pushed on, I was fighting for survival.

I nudged the helmet of a dead soldier as I passed, and golden brown, shoulder length hair fell out. The meat had been female. I retched but pushed on. Why?

I no longer knew.

I came upon an enemy soldier still alive but with only one arm, no legs.

He cried in poor English, “Please kill me.” I asked him how old he was and why he was here. He said he was eighteen and was here because he “Owed it” to his country. I put my second last bullet through his head.

The last, I saved for myself……..

[betsy]

THE North American cotinent thrived under the great law, until the europeans arrived

the new covenant the great spirit wrote the laws in our hearts. IT IS NOT man made laws that keep the people from killing one another It is man that kills man.This is why the natives do not accept canadas laws

WAR: The glory of it all…

What great law was that before the Europeans arrived?

[dances with fishes]

THE North American cotinent thrived under the great law, until the europeans arrived

the new covenant the great spirit wrote the laws in our hearts. IT IS NOT man made laws that keep the people from killing one another It is man that kills man.This is why the natives do not accept canadas laws

WAR: The glory of it all…

What great law was that before the Europeans arrived?

The great law is the original law of the creator(god)great spirit, All the people lived under it

Then came the darkness. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth,for the devil has come down unto you.

The serpant was wroth with the woman,and made war against her and the remnent of her seed.HER is the world

the seed are the indigenous people of the world.The peacemaker{Jesus}came and reminded the people who they were and the way back to the creator.Some accepted his teachings some did not.Jesus did not come to establish a church,the church teaches what paul(saul) taught which is opposite of Christ's teachings.

You can search for your self if you punch in great law,there are lots of interesting sites.

To go further back punch in, white brother.

[ceemes]

Well if you believe everything that is pushed at you by the Conservatives then you will get the government you deserve. If your son was coming home in a body bag I wonder how you would feel.

I'd rather see my sons coming home in body bags than living under tyranny and in fear.

An interesting statement, as a retired member of the Canadian Armed Forces and a former card carrying member of the Federal PCP, I would be very interested in knowing exactly how many sons you currently have in the services and if none, how many are of service age?

It is all too easy to say "Stay the course", "Sacrafices must be made", "Support the troops" when you own ass or the asses of your kids are not on the line. As for Steven Harper, I met him during the drive to "unite the right" and found him to be a combination of a Televangelis + Used Car Salesman + Snake Oil Salesman, which is to say an two-faced git who would say anything to get elected and I trust him about as far as I could toss both him and Stockwell Day together. I voted no against the merger.

[ceemes]

Mulroney, a smiling hypocrite who loves anything American and is a traitor to his country.

You got me lost there. Please explain how Mulroney was a traitor to this country.

most likely a referrence to NAFTA, which has done more harm then good for Canada. The only good thing about NAFTA is, what the US quite cheerfully did to Canada under FTA, Mexico did to the US under NAFTA.

[ceemes]

Canada didn't send troops to Iraq.

That's one decision we made on our own.

With the aid of millions of dollars in massiving polling to let him know which way the winds were blowing both inside and outside the party.

The Conservatives would have had Canada in Iraq. Think that would have been a good decision?

Dunno. The Australians sent troops to Iraq. I don't believe they've even taken one casualty. Certainly they've had far fewer than we have in Afghanistan.

Incorrect, Australia have lost two soldier in Iraq and New Zealand one.

Total Iraq Casualty Count...very grim reading

[betsy]

The great law is the original law of the creator(god)great spirit, All the people lived under it

Then came the darkness. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth,for the devil has come down unto you.

The serpant was wroth with the woman,and made war against her and the remnent of her seed.HER is the world

the seed are the indigenous people of the world.The peacemaker{Jesus}came and reminded the people who they were and the way back to the creator.Some accepted his teachings some did not.Jesus did not come to establish a church,the church teaches what paul(saul) taught which is opposite of Christ's teachings.

You can search for your self if you punch in great law,there are lots of interesting sites.

To go further back punch in, white brother.

But didn't things like devil and serpent come from Christian teachings, which the Europeans brought here?

[dances with fishes]

The great law is the original law of the creator(god)great spirit, All the people lived under it

Then came the darkness. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth,for the devil has come down unto you.

The serpant was wroth with the woman,and made war against her and the remnent of her seed.HER is the world

the seed are the indigenous people of the world.The peacemaker{Jesus}came and reminded the people who they were and the way back to the creator.Some accepted his teachings some did not.Jesus did not come to establish a church,the church teaches what paul(saul) taught which is opposite of Christ's teachings.

You can search for your self if you punch in great law,there are lots of interesting sites.

To go further back punch in, white brother.

But didn't things like devil and serpent come from Christian teachings, which the Europeans brought here?

Did you do a search?

different words same meaning. i use them because most people know about the bible,it is to bad they don't actually read it for themselves,before trying to teach others!

[betsy]

An interesting statement, as a retired member of the Canadian Armed Forces and a former card carrying member of the Federal PCP, I would be very interested in knowing exactly how many sons you currently have in the services and if none, how many are of service age?

It is all too easy to say "Stay the course", "Sacrafices must be made", "Support the troops" when you own ass or the asses of your kids are not on the line. As for Steven Harper, I met him during the drive to "unite the right" and found him to be a combination of a Televangelis + Used Car Salesman + Snake Oil Salesman, which is to say an two-faced git who would say anything to get elected and I trust him about as far as I could toss both him and Stockwell Day together. I voted no against the merger.

Coming from a soldier, I too am quite interested in what you seem to suggest. Yes, it does seem too easy to say that sacrifices must be made isn't it....coming from a civilian who is far too removed from the actual place of combat! I am interested in what wars you have participated, keeping in mind that being "retired" do not necessarily mean having seen the likes of World War 2 or the Korean war.

I am a civilian very much aware of the difficult sacrifices our soldiers (and their families) are making for the sake of this country. Whether you approve or not of the reasons why we are in Afghanistan is no longer of immediate import at this point: we are already engaged and at war, if you hadn't noticed.

Instead of civilians cringing and wringing their hands at the sight of blood and body bags....we could contribute in our own little way to alleviate those sufferings and make those sacrifices more meaningful for our troops...but at least, supporting the effort they make.

How many bodies do you think is enough? Should we call it quits and run with our tails between our legs when we've reached 100?

[betsy]

As for Steven Harper, I met him during the drive to "unite the right" and found him to be a combination of a Televangelis + Used Car Salesman + Snake Oil Salesman, which is to say an two-faced git who would say anything to get elected and I trust him about as far as I could toss both him and Stockwell Day together. I voted no against the merger.

Funny thing is: that is the very same impression I had...and still have of many of the Liberal leader contenders, and of Jack...except that no, they didn't strike me as televangelis (they'll have a hard time spinning about honor and other deeper values I guess). Just used car salesmen and rotten lawyers.

[betsy]

And while we're at it, it is amusing to note that the new in-word these days is "proportionate" response.

Just what do they mean by "proportionate" response or retaliation? How do you measure "proportionate?"

What is the best course of action? Long-drawn skirmishes...which only prolong the sufferings, or one good whallop? Just like pulling a loose tooth...the best way is one good tug, wouldn't it?