Options for Lebanon

[August1991]

I don't know if we need another thread on this but given the titles of the others, I thought I'd start one specifically about Lebanon and its options. There is a sad possibility that the civil war will start again. I don't think so though. The Lebanese are too tired to fight anymore.

The following weblog states the Lebanese case well, in my opinion.

But, today, on the 16th day, most Lebanese feel trapped between two destructive entities that will not give up. And to make matters worse, no one dares to voice his opinion…for if you speak against Hezbollah, you are automatically labeled as an Israeli agent, and if you speak against the Israeli attacks, the world sees you as a supporter of the Islamic group.

What the whole world is not seeing is that there is this large section of the Lebanese population, from all religions and sects, that wants neither…they simply want to live in peace, be allowed to grow their kids like any one in the world, without having to worry when the next meal will be, or whether there will be enough baby formula in the supermarket to last them for the unknown duration of the conflict…

What the whole world does not see, is the even worse threat of civil war that hangs above the head of every Lebanese citizen should he decide to undertake any action from the interior of the country…at this point, tensions are very high between the major sects (Christian, Sunni and Druze) and the Shiites (composing sect of Hezbollah) despite the efforts of all the leading politicians and religious people to calm tempers down.

Some Weblog

[jdobbin]

The Lebanese should surrender.

[geoffrey]

The Lebanese should surrender.

The Lebanese aren't at war.

[jdobbin]

The Lebanese should surrender.

The Lebanese aren't at war.

I was joking around with that response.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Lebanese should surrender.

The Lebanese aren't at war.

Are you sure about that?

[geoffrey]

The Lebanese should surrender.

The Lebanese aren't at war.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, the Lebanese are against Hezbollah too, but aren't fighting anyone currently. Israel and Hezbollah are at war, Lebanon is the innocent bystander caught in the crossfire.

[cybercoma]

I wouldn't call Lebanon an innocent bystander. Hezbollah has ministers in the the Lebanese government and I find it a bit odd that the Lebanese government can broker a peace deal with prisoners that Hezbollah captured. Hezbollah and the Lebanese government are working hand in hand, don't let the rhetoric fool you.

Take a look at the Lebanese proposal. They'll send their military in if Israel withdraws, but not a second before. Lebanon has been crying that they don't have the power to deal with Hezbollah and even to this day they say they need international peacekeepers to help them. Here's the catch though, they don't want peacekeepers with firearms that can help oust Hezbollah. They only want peaceful observers back in the region. So, what do you think is going to happen? Hezbollah is just going to continue firing rockets into Israel after a brief ceasefire. Hezbollah will continue to go into Israel and attack civilian populations. Hezbollah will continue to rape and torture innocent Israelis. They want all the Jews in the middle east dead and they want Israel dismantled. Having international peacekeepers sitting around bunkers with binoculars isn't going to stop them. The Lebanese government will continue to do nothing about it because Hezbollah is part of the government.

I'll tell you what the ONLY option for Lebanon is. Israel doesn't want to occupy Lebanon and they certainly don't want to kill innocent civilians (unlike the stated intentions of Hezbollah). All Israel wants is to be left alone and to live in peace without having to worry about rockets being fired over the borders or terrorists coming over the borders and murdering Jews. So the only solution for Lebanon is to disarm and dismantle Hezbollah and respect the blue line and Israel's right to exist.

As soon as Hezbollah is under control and there are garauntees that they won't be attacking Israel anymore, Israel will withdraw from Lebanon and all will be good. What is NOT going to happen is an Israeli pullout for some piece of paper ceasefire that Hezbollah will not honour anyway. The problem with the United Nations is that they deal negotiations between nations. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that doesn't (nor should it) get a say at the table.

The bottom line is that Hezbollah needs to be eliminated. They're not a nation, they don't follow the rules of war and they're a serious threat to Israel with the weapons and firepower they're being given by Syria and Iran. Ideally, Lebanon should have dealt with this problem, but have chosen not to. With 3 ministers in their government being from Hezbollah, I'm apt to believe they don't want to do anything about it.

There should be limits on democracy, I don't care what anyone says. Everyone should absolutely have the right to freedom and basic human rights, but there are certain elements out there (like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Palestine) that should not become part of a nation's government.

[yam]

I wouldn't call Lebanon an innocent bystander. Hezbollah has ministers in the the Lebanese government and I find it a bit odd that the Lebanese government can broker a peace deal with prisoners that Hezbollah captured.

What . . .you mean the two of them.

What about the hundreds of untried, unconvicted prisoners Israel has got then?

Thats why hezbollah captured these two in the first place. A desperate attempt to free illegally siezed lebanese civilians.

[geoffrey]

I wouldn't call Lebanon an innocent bystander. Hezbollah has ministers in the the Lebanese government and I find it a bit odd that the Lebanese government can broker a peace deal with prisoners that Hezbollah captured.

What . . .you mean the two of them.

What about the hundreds of untried, unconvicted prisoners Israel has got then?

Thats why hezbollah captured these two in the first place. A desperate attempt to free illegally siezed lebanese civilians.

Ok, I dislike Israel's action. But sympathizing with terrorists is another issue, your a little twisted I'm afraid.

Hezbollah aren't freedom fighters. Lebanon is a free and prosperous country, at least was, until Israel attacked them. And that was Hezbollah's decision, they aren't hero's, but a cancer on the Lebanese people and their futures.

[jdobbin]

Ok, I dislike Israel's action. But sympathizing with terrorists is another issue, your a little twisted I'm afraid.

Hezbollah aren't freedom fighters. Lebanon is a free and prosperous country, at least was, until Israel attacked them. And that was Hezbollah's decision, they aren't hero's, but a cancer on the Lebanese people and their futures.

It seems Lebanon is trying to come up with something that Isreal will accept but from what I watched from the United Nations Security Council, I don't think they are impressed.

It makes me wonder how long the offensive will last. Certainly a lot longer than two weeks.

At some point, Lebanon's infrastructure will not be able to support the lives of the people there and deaths will rise considerably.

And in the end, Hezbollah will probably still be in existence.

[geoffrey]

That's exactly why I don't support Israel's tactics, it won't destroy Hezbollah, it just hurts innocent people.

Otherwise I'm completely behind Israel, kill each last terrorist. But they sure aren't doing it now.

[Argus]

The Lebanese should surrender.

The Lebanese aren't at war.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, the Lebanese are against Hezbollah too, .

Not so's you'd notice.

[Argus]

I wouldn't call Lebanon an innocent bystander. Hezbollah has ministers in the the Lebanese government and I find it a bit odd that the Lebanese government can broker a peace deal with prisoners that Hezbollah captured.

What . . .you mean the two of them.

What about the hundreds of untried, unconvicted prisoners Israel has got then?

Thats why hezbollah captured these two in the first place. A desperate attempt to free illegally siezed lebanese civilians.

I have yet to see even one tiny bit of evidence in support of this claim. The only mention I've seen of Lebanese prisoners on Lebanese forums has been two or three terrorists being held by Israel.

[jdobbin]

The Lebanese should surrender.

The Lebanese aren't at war.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, the Lebanese are against Hezbollah too, .

Not so's you'd notice.

Those other responses were not mine.

[ceemes]

I wouldn't call Lebanon an innocent bystander. Hezbollah has ministers in the the Lebanese government and I find it a bit odd that the Lebanese government can broker a peace deal with prisoners that Hezbollah captured.

What . . .you mean the two of them.

What about the hundreds of untried, unconvicted prisoners Israel has got then?

Thats why hezbollah captured these two in the first place. A desperate attempt to free illegally siezed lebanese civilians.

I have yet to see even one tiny bit of evidence in support of this claim. The only mention I've seen of Lebanese prisoners on Lebanese forums has been two or three terrorists being held by Israel.

Israel is well known for kidnapping, arresting and detaining without trail or due process of those she feels a risk. AI has a long file of Israeli held detainee's.

A quick Google search brought up 12,300,000 hits for Israeli Political Prisoners in 0.30 seconds.

Here's the Link, it should provide you with hours of interesting reading and research.

[ceemes]

I am not sure if anyone posted this elsewhere, but I believe it does have some bearing on the debate here. It should be noted that not only is the writer is a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university, but also a retired Lt. General in the IDF.

Morality is not on our side

By Ze'ev Maoz

There's practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards.

This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah's side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah "started it" when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side.

Let's start with a few facts. We invaded a sovereign state, and occupied its capital in 1982. In the process of this occupation, we dropped several tons of bombs from the air, ground and sea, while wounding and killing thousands of civilians. Approximately 14,000 civilians were killed between June and September of 1982, according to a conservative estimate. The majority of these civilians had nothing to do with the PLO, which provided the official pretext for the war.

In Operations Accountability and Grapes of Wrath, we caused the mass flight of about 500,000 refugees from southern Lebanon on each occasion. There are no exact data on the number of casualties in these operations, but one can recall that in Operation Grapes of Wrath, we bombed a shelter in the village of Kafr Kana which killed 103 civilians. The bombing may have been accidental, but that did not make the operation any more moral.

On July 28, 1989, we kidnapped Sheikh Obeid, and on May 12, 1994, we kidnapped Mustafa Dirani, who had captured Ron Arad. Israel held these two people and another 20-odd Lebanese detainees without trial, as "negotiating chips." That which is permissible to us is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah.

Hezbollah crossed a border that is recognized by the international community. That is true. What we are forgetting is that ever since our withdrawal from Lebanon, the Israel Air Force has conducted photo-surveillance sorties on a daily basis in Lebanese airspace. While these flights caused no casualties, border violations are border violations. Here too, morality is not on our side.

So much for the history of morality. Now, let's consider current affairs. What exactly is the difference between launching Katyushas into civilian population centers in Israel and the Israel Air Force bombing population centers in south Beirut, Tyre, Sidon and Tripoli? The IDF has fired thousands of shells into south Lebanon villages, alleging that Hezbollah men are concealed among the civilian population. Approximately 25 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Katyusha missiles to date. The number of dead in Lebanon, the vast majority comprised of civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah, is more than 300.

(Posters note: The number of casualties on both sides has almost doubled since this piece was writen and published[/color=#00CCCC]

Worse yet, bombing infrastructure targets such as power stations, bridges and other civil facilities turns the entire Lebanese civilian population into a victim and hostage, even if we are not physically harming civilians. The use of bombings to achieve a diplomatic goal - namely, coercing the Lebanese government into implementing UN Security Council Resolution 1559 - is an attempt at political blackmail, and no less than the kidnapping of IDF soldiers by Hezbollah is the aim of bringing about a prisoner exchange.

There is a propaganda aspect to this war, and it involves a competition as to who is more miserable. Each side tries to persuade the world that it is more miserable. As in every propaganda campaign, the use of information is selective, distorted and self-righteous. If we want to base our information (or shall we call it propaganda?) policy on the assumption that the international environment is going to buy the dubious merchandise that we are selling, be it out of ignorance or hypocrisy, then fine. But in terms of our own national soul searching, we owe ourselves to confront the bitter truth - maybe we will win this conflict on the military field, maybe we will make some diplomatic gains, but on the moral plane, we have no advantage, and we have no special status.

The writer is a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university.

Link

[jdobbin]

Two more boats from Canada are evacuating Canadians.

The National Post today said that it is estimated that 250,000 Lebanese have left the country.

Stephen Harper yesterday that he would speed up the process of allowing Lebanese refugees into the country. It harkens back to the days on 1982 when Mulroney had to do the same thing.

It took 20 years for Lebanon to re-build. After the war, do you think it will take as long or are the ingredients in place for renewed sectarian violence?

[Black Dog]

It took 20 years for Lebanon to re-build. After the war, do you think it will take as long or are the ingredients in place for renewed sectarian violence?

I think teh west, led by countries like the U.S. and Canada, should get in there fast with their wallets open. If we don't, Iran will.

[geoffrey]

It took 20 years for Lebanon to re-build. After the war, do you think it will take as long or are the ingredients in place for renewed sectarian violence?

I think teh west, led by countries like the U.S. and Canada, should get in there fast with their wallets open. If we don't, Iran will.

Good point. Or another terrorist group.

Poverty is Hezbollah's best tool, they take kids and indoctrinate them at sponsored schools. They feed families. Increase poverty, increase terrorisms hold on the area.

[cybercoma]

It took 20 years for Lebanon to re-build. After the war, do you think it will take as long or are the ingredients in place for renewed sectarian violence?

I think teh west, led by countries like the U.S. and Canada, should get in there fast with their wallets open. If we don't, Iran will.

Brilliant!

How do you combat terrorism?

How do the terrorists recruit? They dump all kinds of money into neighbourhoods, schools and whatnot to make the people think they're the good guys, just trying to fight for their freedom. Good old fashioned deception.

Maybe that's what the west should do to combat terrorism. Dump money into these nations. Build schools, rebuild neighbourhoods and infrastructure, etc....

Make the people LOVE the west because the west gives them things the terrorists and their government can't or won't.

But how do you accomplish that.....hmmm..

[Argus]

It took 20 years for Lebanon to re-build. After the war, do you think it will take as long or are the ingredients in place for renewed sectarian violence?

I think teh west, led by countries like the U.S. and Canada, should get in there fast with their wallets open. If we don't, Iran will.

Brilliant!

How do you combat terrorism?

How do the terrorists recruit? They dump all kinds of money into neighbourhoods, schools and whatnot to make the people think they're the good guys, just trying to fight for their freedom. Good old fashioned deception.

Maybe that's what the west should do to combat terrorism. Dump money into these nations. Build schools, rebuild neighbourhoods and infrastructure, etc....

Make the people LOVE the west because the west gives them things the terrorists and their government can't or won't.

But how do you accomplish that.....hmmm..

The US gives far, far, far and away more money to third world nations, including Muslim nations, than Iran does, and it does not appear to have bought them any love.

[Black Dog]

The US gives far, far, far and away more money to third world nations, including Muslim nations, than Iran does, and it does not appear to have bought them any love.

1/3 of the U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel. The other leading recipients are Jordan, Egypt and Iraq. Of course, most of that money is in the form of arms and othe rmilitary equipment. When the U.S. came to the aid of Indonesia after the tsunami, there was a palpable increase in goodwill towards America. So, perhaps if the U.S spent more money "on the ground" and less selling dictators like Murabek weapons to oppress their population, public opinion would shift in their favour. I know: sounds crazy.

[cybercoma]

The US gives far, far, far and away more money to third world nations, including Muslim nations, than Iran does, and it does not appear to have bought them any love.

1/3 of the U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel. The other leading recipients are Jordan, Egypt and Iraq. Of course, most of that money is in the form of arms and othe rmilitary equipment. When the U.S. came to the aid of Indonesia after the tsunami, there was a palpable increase in goodwill towards America. So, perhaps if the U.S spent more money "on the ground" and less selling dictators like Murabek weapons to oppress their population, public opinion would shift in their favour. I know: sounds crazy.

This would have to go hand in hand with murdering terrorists and islamo-fascists though.

[geoffrey]

The US gives far, far, far and away more money to third world nations, including Muslim nations, than Iran does, and it does not appear to have bought them any love.

1/3 of the U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel. The other leading recipients are Jordan, Egypt and Iraq. Of course, most of that money is in the form of arms and othe rmilitary equipment. When the U.S. came to the aid of Indonesia after the tsunami, there was a palpable increase in goodwill towards America. So, perhaps if the U.S spent more money "on the ground" and less selling dictators like Murabek weapons to oppress their population, public opinion would shift in their favour. I know: sounds crazy.

This would have to go hand in hand with murdering terrorists and islamo-fascists though.

Killing them, not murdering them, sheesh.

I don't know how many fit the description of fascist either, it's a very misused word. I shudder everytime I hear Bush misuse it in speech, makes him look very uneducated and unintelligent for an Ivy League grad. Islamo fascist doesn't fly with me. Terrorist works just fine.

I figure once they become suicidal terrorists, there is little we can do. They are indoctrinated, they are pretty much unchangable. So these people need to be defeated, either killed or jailed, preferably the later.

But eliminating the terrorist stranghold on health care and education, especially in the middle East, would be a great step in the right direction to eliminate groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.

Most parents would likely not want to send their kid to a Hezbollah school, but when stuck between that or their child being illiterate with no future, they'll send them.

[Argus]

The US gives far, far, far and away more money to third world nations, including Muslim nations, than Iran does, and it does not appear to have bought them any love.

1/3 of the U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel. The other leading recipients are Jordan, Egypt and Iraq. Of course, most of that money is in the form of arms and othe rmilitary equipment. When the U.S. came to the aid of Indonesia after the tsunami, there was a palpable increase in goodwill towards America. So, perhaps if the U.S spent more money "on the ground" and less selling dictators like Murabek weapons to oppress their population, public opinion would shift in their favour. I know: sounds crazy.

* US government official aid: $19 billion per year

* International giving by US foundations: $1.5 billion per year

* Charitable giving by US businesses: $2.8 billion annually

* American NGOs: $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.

* Religious overseas ministries: $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.

* US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.3 billion

* Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $18 billion in 2000

* Source: Dr. Carol Adelman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central Station, 21 August 2002.