1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[Oleg Bach]

Luck? I suppose if you consider technological advancements, warcraft, statecraft and philosophy (almost unique to europe) to also come into your perception of luck... then... no no... this is more simple defamation ... a mind crazed with hatred of Europe and its civilization...

Was China lucky when it was able to maintain its Dynasties for centuries after the mongols had officially disappeared and no other power could compete with them?

Was Japan lucky to be an insular country and very easy to defend?

Was Egypt lucky- when it was about the ONLY civilization worthy of the name in its day- with nearly no competition...

Constantinople and Byzantine were pretty much "european" at one time.. being roman and all ...

Where the moors lucky to have invaded nearly uninhabited portions of southern spain?

Listen, we all know you're just venting out hatred... fess up... you don't like Europe or its civilization... its not like you're fooling anyone!

Hey I have been on the planet a while and had a good look around..and I am not about to fool anyone either - the term civilization does not apply - I really have not seen any signs of civilization since I landed on this god forsaken mud ball.

[benny]

people's GENES do in fact influence certain aptitudes..

What we can say for sure is that genes influence the production of amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins. From there, therapeutic programs can be devised to improve the development of living organisms including humans, of course.

[CANADIEN]

I'll gladly crawl out of my hole if you provide me with compelling evidence... BUT: your insults, ad hominems, and threats tell me that I'm right...

So now I have threatened you? With what? Oh we not, nothing... As for insults, not my fault if what you write is an insult to logic.

Now, since you claim that some races are more intelligent than others and that's in the genes, care to name the gene that makes Blacks less intelligent than Mongoloids?

[jbg]

To benefit everyone, the diversification of genes should be agreed upon, with each individual having an equal say on the agreement.

How do you accomplish that, group sex?

[Oleg Bach]

I'll gladly crawl out of my hole if you provide me with compelling evidence... BUT: your insults, ad hominems, and threats tell me that I'm right...

Get real...lictor..You are playing everyone - tell me if I am right - are you some kid sitting in his dad's basement with his head shaved bald ..fighting for the "white race"? You are well spoken but so is Obama... I pray to God that people like you never have real power or authority - If you did gain power - you would start up the ovens and start burning... You would think that you would have learned somthing from history..apprently LICTOR would like to take drastic action and cleanse the world...well - nothing wrong with tearing down a corrupt temple..but you have to replace it with something better..and YOU have no replacement..being a destroyer is easy - but can you create something good?

[jbg]

Get real...lictor..You are playing everyone - tell me if I am right - are you some kid sitting in his dad's basement with his head shaved bald ..fighting for the "white race"?

348 posts in 36 days? Granted I have often been at a 10 post a day rate but that was after I "learned the forum; clearly he's on a spree.

[benny]

How do you accomplish that, group sex?

By a public policy on genetic engineering.

[CANADIEN]

Here you go again: you simply assert something as fact without explaining your reasoning for it or showing me your

Why is judging the intelligence of a people by measurable IQ scores taken from huge samples and considering their technological aptitudes (or rather lack thereof) somehow not "proof that there is no causal relation between race and intelligence"...

Because it does not explain variations in IQ with certain races. Because it does not explain how I.Q. scores increased sharpely with certain ethnic grous over a brief period of time. Because it totally ignores the fact that i.q. testings are actually capacity for certain types of learning. And that human beings have something unique in common, the capacity for reasoning and learning, which transcendates biology.

I mean assuming something short of complete idiocy - you'll at least concede that there is reason to believe that a people's GENES do in fact influence certain aptitudes..

Certain genes can influence certainn attitudes, but differences in technological achievements or in i.q. scores demonstrates the fallacy of the "some races are genetically more intelligent than others" argument. Otherwise, would you care to identify what gene apparently makes Blacks less intelligent, in what Black populations it is more present, and why? m Guess you can't.

I mean logically, if a race or "groups of people" are consistently shown to have low IQ's and proven to have historically little or no capacity for complex problem solving (as the Australoids are)...

it's essentially for environmental reasons. Chiefly contacts (or lack theof) with other human population, and the type of learning or knowledge needed in a certain environment, and passed frrom generation to generation.

A Caucasian child growing up in, let's say, an isolated tribe in New Guinea, with little contact with the outside world, would grow up with the same baggage of knowledge, traditions and understanding of the world as the other children in his/her tribe, with the same capacity to understand a radio or a band-aid. So much for genes.

I mean at what point will you concede that there is certainly validity in such a concept .. how can you not put 2 and 2 together?

It's because I DO put 2 and 2 together that I know your maths gives 3 as a result.

How can you say:

"The very existence of those differences is sufficient proof that there is no causal relation between race and intelligence"

existence of differences is PROOF that there is no difference in intelligence between races? Am I reading this correctly?!

If I did that that is "Credo quia absurdum" and that is sheer lunacy and madness.

Either you cannot read, on you misread on purpose. The differences I allude to are differences in tehcnological achievements within races. You cannot account for them in the "there's a gene that makes Aussstraloids less intelligent" theory, and you're not even trying to.

If you really believe that "the differences prove that we're equal" ... then you're simply out of your mind.. and I need not further pain you by asking you to rationally account for your theory of complete racial equality....

Still refusing to acknowledge that this is NOT what I am saying, I see.

Countless studies (from IQ by nation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ... http://www.news-medical.net/?id=9530... http://www.apa.org/journals/law/) corroborate the fact that intelligence is intricately linked with race (because race is GENES)

Besides the facts that your links lead nowhere... you conveniently ignore the 1995 report by a APA task force stating that there is not much direct evidence on a supposed link between genes and variations in iq test scores between ethnic and racial groups, and what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.

and there is every reason to believe that just as race colors a persons skin, and gives his face a particular appearance, and makes one vulnerable to specific diseases... that it also "colors his mind"...

tell me that this is not plain logic & common sense?

It is not palin logic and common sense.

I mean why is such a concept utterly implausible to you?

Because it is utterly implausible, period.

[CANADIEN]

to use a parallel term: we could say ... that dogs are all member of the "genus canis".. or that cats are cats... You really believe that when you say "we are all humans" that you've said something profound!?

Not that profound, but surely more profound that what you have to say.

I hear these arguments OVER AND OVER AGAIN... "we are all one race the human race" "we all bleed red" " we all have hearts" "we all eat, urinate, copulate and pooh"

these arguments score ZERO... yes we're all humans... but hardly equal..

We are equal in one aspect... being human, and that's the only one that counts. But there are plenty of areas where humans are not equal. Capacity to make sense is one, and as you are constantly proving that type of inequality has nothing to do with race.

And god is an illusory concept that is unprovable because can't prove a negative...

And god is no proof of anything...

The Universe it's the proof there is a creator (a God), but tha'ts another debate.

because (like the concept of complete racial equality) the concept that some race are more intelligent than others (my addition) has no single proof of existence... not a shred of palpable evidence... NOTHING...

Edited April 27, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Let's suppose for one second that someraces are more intelligent than others. What's next, lictor?

What implication in term of social policy, public policy, human rights?

Since it is evident that you are unable to see the fallacy of your arguments and that nobody here is swayed by it, let's get to the point where I suspect you want to bring the whole thing.

[benny]

Because it does not explain variations in IQ with certain races. Because it does not explain how I.Q. scores increased sharpely with certain ethnic grous over a brief period of time. Because it totally ignores the fact that i.q. testings are actually capacity for certain types of learning. And that human beings have something unique in common, the capacity for reasoning and learning, which transcendates biology.

...

Certain genes can influence certainn attitudes, but differences in technological achievements or in i.q. scores demonstrates the fallacy of the "some races are genetically more intelligent than others" argument. Otherwise, would you care to identify what gene apparently makes Blacks less intelligent, in what Black populations it is more present, and why? m Guess you can't.

Japanese, for instance, live surrounded by water rich in fishes and Japanese high I.Q. is explained by their diet rich in fish (Omega3) and by their long school year.

[charter.rights]

On that note I would suggest that anecdotal evidence provides that Asians, Japanese and East Indians as a prime example are far superior intellectually (and generally speaking) than Caucasians IF we limit our discussion to IQ tests. Of course that would even be suggesting that standard IQ tests favour Caucasians because they were written with their basis of understanding.

But if we get rid of the IQ tests then the argument becomes moot, since intelligence is culturally relative, and since Canadians (generally speaking) are pretty much void of any identifiable culture, it would also suggest that Canadians really aren't that intelligent in the scheme of things.

Lastly I would suggest that those who use race as a means of segregating people into finite groups demonstrate the least intelligence, since for these myths to exist one must be completely ignorant to the facts, or ignoring them wholly.

Of course this is just one opinion I have but it is valid nonetheless, generally speaking, plus or minus 3 points, nine times out of ten.

[lictor616]

So now I have threatened you? With what? Oh we not, nothing... As for insults, not my fault if what you write is an insult to logic.

Now, since you claim that some races are more intelligent than others and that's in the genes, care to name the gene that makes Blacks less intelligent than Mongoloids?

Generally the HOX gene accounts for the differences in morphological proportions in blacks... Black children while being much quicker at gaining motor sensory and much quicker to walking, have their cranial sutures "close up" earlier then "white" or asian children. Blacks also have what are called "simple" cranial sutures... less of them, less messy less dramatic.

There is also a different forming of the cranium in blacks... black people's skulls are usually thicker particularly in the dome area and have a peculiar sloping facial inclination which pose various important morphological differences

Black skulls have very pronounced AA & He Post-orbital constriction,

Many Blacks also have Saggital keels.. which are completely absent in asian groups .. and very rarely occur in Europeans...

(Etcoff, 1999, pp. 42-43); s-S Africans have “remarkable prognathism.” (Hanihara, 2000) iw a protruding jaw which is usually associated with a sloping forehead and indicates a smaller prefrontal cortex, the area of the brain that handles planning, inhibition, and self-discipline...

there's more too, but I,ll cut it short for now (I haven't even gotten into testosterone production which is actually of different chemical composition in blacks- which also would have effects on the mind).

for more on the subject I refer you to:

Edgar, H.

(Mar., 2005) Prediction of race using characteristics of dental morphology. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 50(2).

Edmands, S.

(2007). Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management.

Molecular Ecology 16(3):463–475.

Edwards, A.W.F.

(2003) Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy, an academic paper.

Eichler, E.E.

(2006). Widening the spectrum of human genetic variation. Nature Genetics, 38:9-11.

Curnoe, D.

& Tobias, P.V. (2006). Description, new reconstruction, comparative anatomy, and classification of the Sterkfontein Stw 53 cranium, with discussions about the taxonomy of other southern African early Homo remains. Journal of Human Evolution, 50:36-77.

Brace, C. L.

(2000). Evolution in an Anthropological View. AltaMira Press.

[Peter F]

Generally the HOX gene accounts for the differences in morphological proportions in blacks... Black children while being much quicker at gaining motor sensory and much quicker to walking, have their cranial sutures "close up" earlier then "white" or asian children. Blacks also have what are called "simple" cranial sutures... less of them, less messy less dramatic.

etc

I beleive Canadiens question was : care to name the gene that makes Blacks less intelligent than Mongoloids?

and I must ask, If you're right - so effing what?

[lictor616]

Certain genes can influence certainn attitudes, but differences in technological achievements or in i.q. scores demonstrates the fallacy of the "some races are genetically more intelligent than others" argument. Otherwise, would you care to identify what gene apparently makes Blacks less intelligent, in what Black populations it is more present, and why? m Guess you can't.

Either you cannot read, on you misread on purpose. The differences I allude to are differences in tehcnological achievements within races. You cannot account for them in the "there's a gene that makes Aussstraloids less intelligent" theory, and you're not even trying to.

there we go again... "gene influence certain traits".. (and we are different due to this as genes express themselves differently ALONG RACIAL LINES) . "but we're all precisely equal"..

That's Orwellian Double Think...

that's simply hysterical!

The fact that DIFFERENT people PRODUCE DIFFERENT societies doesn't suggest that we're indeed DIFFERENT? How did you arrive at that conclusion!?

Its astonishing to see that you have at least SOME understanding of what differences exist between various races.. and are aware of the terribly limited record of invention or any sort of sophisticated problem solving abilities on the part of Australoids for instance... on top of it YOU CONCEDE that genes DO indeed play roles in the formation of all human characteristics YET you insanely deny the necessary implications of this!

How and why do you make the leap of faith while seemingly understanding the role genetics play and seeing what IT HAS produced in the past, and IS PRODUCING AT PRESENT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES and reject all the logical deductions ANY reasonable person would make...

for additional suggestive illustration of these morphological differences consider this pic of an albino black.... http://www.ucm.es/info/genetica/grupod/Gen...ma/albinism.gif

or perhaps this one: http://www.artthrob.co.za/04july/images/hugo03a.jpg

look at the noses, the jaws, the shape of heads... don't you see a consistency in them? http://www.bbc.co.uk/wear/content/images/2...003_402x302.jpg

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/6714/754...ndan-kids-0.jpg

Edited April 27, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

I beleive Canadiens question was : care to name the gene that makes Blacks less intelligent than Mongoloids?

and I must ask, If you're right - so effing what?

Well its not IF i'm right... the evidence is easily ascertainable with the human eye: you can see these morphological difference with a naked human eye.

There are many GENES that together produce traits that heavily influence all manner of mental faculties. I've actually named some of them here.

So what? well.. as with all truths , we should incorporate the knowledge in our understanding of reality.... don't you want to know what is TRUE reguardless of what certain truths may have as applications?

look at the facial inclination of this dinka tribeswoman ... notice the bulging oval spheroid type head.. resembling a sideways egg.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/image...mepg2/dinka.jpg

for additional proof of just how glaring some of the differences DIFFERENT people create:

sample this bit of Dinka culture:

[Peter F]

Well its not IF i'm right... the evidence is easily ascertainable with the human eye: you can see these morphological difference with a naked human eye.

There are many GENES that together produce traits that heavily influence all manner of mental faculties. I've actually named some of them here.

So what? well.. as with all truths , we should incorporate the knowledge in our understanding of reality.... don't you want to know what is TRUE reguardless of what certain truths may have as applications?

look at the facial inclination of this dinka tribeswoman ... notice the bulging oval spheroid type head.. resembling a sideways egg.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/image...mepg2/dinka.jpg

for additional proof of just how glaring some of the differences DIFFERENT people create:

sample this bit of Dinka culture:

Yeah. So? How would this truth be incorporated into our knowledge of reality?

[CANADIEN]

Well its not IF i'm right... the evidence is easily ascertainable with the human eye: you can see these morphological difference with a naked human eye.

There are many GENES that together produce traits that heavily influence all manner of mental faculties. I've actually named some of them here.

So what? well.. as with all truths , we should incorporate the knowledge in our understanding of reality.... don't you want to know what is TRUE reguardless of what certain truths may have as applications?

look at the facial inclination of this dinka tribeswoman ... notice the bulging oval spheroid type head.. resembling a sideways egg.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/image...mepg2/dinka.jpg

for additional proof of just how glaring some of the differences DIFFERENT people create:

sample this bit of Dinka culture:

Not surprisingly, you start with another bit of intellectyal dishonest... claiming that people deny the existence of MORPHOLOGICAL difference between the races, or deny the difference in technological achievements between cultures, just because everybody but yiu knows that there is bo causal link between genes, races and intelligence.

We are still waiting for you to tell us which genes allegedly cause Japanese to be more intelligent than Britons, yet explain difference in IQ scores between Ashkenazim and other Jews despite their genetic uniformity.

Most importatnly, what should be the remification of the belief in a link between race, genes and intelligence on social policies. C'mon, you can't wait to tell us, so do tell.

[CANADIEN]

Throughout history, MEN have been responsible for most inventions and technological advancements. The physiological differences between men and women is glaring. Therefore, men must be more intelligent than women and there must be a gene that explains that. Right lictor?

[M.Dancer]

look at the facial inclination of this dinka tribeswoman ... notice the bulging oval spheroid type head.. resembling a sideways egg.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/image...mepg2/dinka.jpg

She gorgeous but so what, so are many blondes yet blonde jokes are the norm...I see no particular correlation between stunningly attactive and intelligence.

[M.Dancer]

sample this bit of Dinka culture:

It's amazing how smart some people can be without the aid of the intraweb...

[benny]

for additional proof of just how glaring some of the differences DIFFERENT people create:

sample this bit of Dinka culture:

The father of Reformation himself, Martin Luther, was obsessed with anal bodily functions, suffering from (psychologically conditioned) constipation – no wonder he defined man as something that fell out of God’s anus, as divine shit.

Read Chapter 3, The Unbearable Heaviness of Being Divine Shit.

http://books.google.com/books?id=je702bo2P...esnum=4#PPP8,M1

[lictor616]

Not surprisingly, you start with another bit of intellectyal dishonest... claiming that people deny the existence of MORPHOLOGICAL difference between the races, or deny the difference in technological achievements between cultures, just because everybody but yiu knows that there is bo causal link between genes, races and intelligence.

We are still waiting for you to tell us which genes allegedly cause Japanese to be more intelligent than Britons, yet explain difference in IQ scores between Ashkenazim and other Jews despite their genetic uniformity.

Most importatnly, what should be the remification of the belief in a link between race, genes and intelligence on social policies. C'mon, you can't wait to tell us, so do tell.

I've already told you what gene contributes to the mental faculties typically found in blacks... I've also showed you reports explaining the different growth and brain formation patterns in broadly defined races... The evidence has ALREADY been laid out...

Ashkenazim are distinct from Sephardic Jews, and jews are a hybrid race with much "diversity" ... actually to call Jews a race is somewhat erroneous.

About Japanese... http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/309/5741/1717 Microcephalin (MCPH1) is ascertained by testing to be a more prevalent a factor in negotiating brain size, capacity and other brain-related phenotypes in Northern Asiatic then any other population group.

[lictor616]

The father of Reformation himself, Martin Luther, was obsessed with anal bodily functions, suffering from (psychologically conditioned) constipation – no wonder he defined man as something that fell out of God’s anus, as divine shit.

Read Chapter 3, The Unbearable Heaviness of Being Divine Shit.

http://books.google.com/books?id=je702bo2P...esnum=4#PPP8,M1

ahahah! "proof"

Slavoj Žižek is no historian.. he is a diseased creature who is actually recognized as an academic fraud in at least 3 universities... He is a self confessed communist and Marxist ideologue... his credentials for discussing ANY subject of history are NILL.

Considering the fact that Communism is a denial of the unconditional objectivity of any truth whatsoever, anything written by communists should taken with a very large grain of salt....

Communism uses scholarship to defeat the PURPOSE of scholarship... to communists a truth is only true if it supports COMMUNISM... which is why there is nearly NO consistency in the ravings of communists (throughout history)... Marcuse (probably the favorite communist ideologue of the western World and the USA) who from book to book strenuously denied concepts or notions he most vehemently supported a book before... read Eros and Civilization and his concept of "polymorphous perversity"... In it he speaks about how George Washington enjoyed bestial acts with horses and also the monstrous depravity of coprophagy... He also affirmed that the great fire of london 1666 never happened...

communists are required to lie to sustain their unsustainable "ideology" (ie conspiracy)

Žižek's account on Martin Luther is pure snake oil... and what the hell kind of liesheets are you reading... no wonder looking into your mind is like peering into an open sewer!

[M.Dancer]

Be it resolved that marxist, communist and nazi scholars (sic) be omitted from this discussion.

No more nonsence like this please....See above

Ashkenazim are distinct from Sephardic Jews, and jews are a hybrid race with much "diversity" ... actually to call Jews a race is somewhat erroneous.