1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[lictor616]

The racism, since you talk about it, is the nonsense that you are peddling about how race is a determinant factor in intelligence.

And the British settlers of australia did not start from stratch... unless you want to argue that the late-18th century British culture was worthless ;-)

Australia was a barren wilderness ... with no roads, no mapping, NOTHING was in place in Australia... again your willful obtuseness is mere bickering...

obviously that's what's was meant by "SCRATCH"... oh but wait a minute are you saying they were able to do this feat of human progress because of the GREAT culture they took after from? !

AH HA!!! hmmm that's smacks of racism or "Eurocentrism" to me... are you suggesting that the English were "different" and had a "better" culture!!!

my oh my such intolerance and bigotry!

races are "GENES" or clusters of genes... genes are a determinant factor in intelligence and all other human traits ...

so YES SILLY PANTS... far from being nonsense... its a truism...

[CANADIEN]

Yet another example of your intellectual dishonesty.

Australia was a barren wilderness ... with no roads, no mapping, NOTHING was in place in Australia... again your willful obtuseness is mere bickering...

obviously that's what's was meant by "SCRATCH"...

Did I say there were roads, maps, cities? Nope. But nice try.

oh but wait a minute are you saying they were able to do this feat of human progress because of the GREAT culture they took after from? !

AH HA!!! hmmm that's smacks of racism or "Eurocentrism" to me... are you suggesting that the English were "different" and had a "better" culture!!!

my oh my such intolerance and bigotry!

:lol: The English settlers came from a culture with more technological knowledge. That does not make their culture or race superior or better. In fact, the treatment of Aborigenes by the British is proof that they, like any other culture, have the capacity to seek to the lowest of barbarity against their fellow humans.

But the bit about arguing that I am a loser racist like you... nice try.

Edited April 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

races are "GENES" or clusters of genes... genes are a determinant factor in intelligence and all other human traits ...

so YES SILLY PANTS... far from being nonsense... its a truism...

Some human races are more intelligent than others.

That sure explains why the combustian engine was invented by a Birton, but not a Sami.

That sure explains why the Aztecs built pyramids, but did not invent cannon powder, paper, printing like the Chinese did. That explains why the Utes, the genetic cousins of the Aztecs. did not build pyramids.

That sure explains why Azkhenazi Jews perform higher in IQ. test than Jews of other cultural/geographic background, despite findings that there are few genetic differences between most of these groups.

Edited April 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Leafless]

:lol: The English settlers came from a culture with more technological knowledge. That does not make their culture or race superior or better.

Well it certaintly does.

The creation of various types of methods and inventions with a wide array of applications is what counts and this is why certain races are superior. This is what separates the men from the boys.

Mostly anyone can learn anything that was previously created by way of proper instruction.

Case in point. They used to send monkeys into outer space.

Now that it has been developed and is relatively save they now use people called astronauts like Marc Garneau.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Leafless

[tango]

Some human races are more intelligent than others.

That sure explains why the combustian engine was invented by a Birton, but not a Sami.

That sure explains why the Aztecs built pyramids, but did not invent cannon powder, paper, printing like the Chinese did. That explains why the Utes, the genetic cousins of the Aztecs. did not build pyramids.

That sure explains why Azkhenazi Jews perform higher in IQ. test than Jews of other cultural/geographic background, despite findings that there are few genetic differences between most of these groups.

No it doesn't, Canadien. It only explains who the tests were developed by and for.

'Tested' IQ by race has never been done validly.

It depends what you choose to assess.

[CANADIEN]

No it doesn't, Canadien. It only explains who the tests were developed by and for.

'Tested' IQ by race has never been done validly.

It depends what you choose to assess.

You mean I should not buy into lictor's bull... err i mean eminently brillant theory?

[benny]

races are "GENES" or clusters of genes... genes are a determinant factor in intelligence and all other human traits ...

so YES SILLY PANTS... far from being nonsense... its a truism...

Since humans have almost all the same genes, it would be better to define a "race" by its mutations, which are random natural occurrences.

[jbg]

It is exactly because I read your drivel attentively that I know it's drivel.

*******************

As for your typical bit of intellectual dishonesty... claiming that I am trying to claim that races are intellectual equals. My whole point is about the FACT that race has nothing to do with intelligence or intellectual capacities. But thabks for making me laugh with that one.

Just because the poster you're attacking appears to be a white supremacist does not mean that he doesn't bring facts to the table that need refutation. You don't help you argument with ad hominem attacks.

[CANADIEN]

Just because the poster you're attacking appears to be a white supremacist does not mean that he doesn't bring facts to the table that need refutation. You don't help you argument with ad hominem attacks.

The few facts offered (such not all cultures are at the same level) are nothing but a foundation for a big lie, that some are more intelligent than others just because of their race. The facts offered are taken out of context, and any counter-argument is purposely distorted. The "ad hominem attacks" are actually needed when dealing with that kind of intellectually dishonest discourse.

You are of course free to disagree.

[benny]

Before messing with other cultures, Protestants needed to conceive these peoples as composed of lazy persons predestined to hell.

[jbg]

The "ad hominem attacks" are actually needed when dealing with that kind of intellectually dishonest discourse.

And they tend to show that you've lost the argument.

Before messing with other cultures, Protestants needed to conceive these peoples as composed of lazy persons predestined to hell.

It is a big mistake to say that all religions and cultures have equal merit. Some religions and cultures spawn only violence and discord; others productive building and industry.

[lictor616]

Yet another example of your intellectual dishonesty.

Did I say there were roads, maps, cities? Nope. But nice try.

:lol: The English settlers came from a culture with more technological knowledge. That does not make their culture or race superior or better. In fact, the treatment of Aborigenes by the British is proof that they, like any other culture, have the capacity to seek to the lowest of barbarity against their fellow humans.

But the bit about arguing that I am a loser racist like you... nice try.

Oh you are racist.. make no mistake about it... just read your anti-white ravings to see: you use only negative adjective to describe us....

they came from a culture with BETTER "technological knowledge".... but that doesn't make them BETTER? I'm lost again...

I don't think its possible for us to ever understand what we're saying to each other... I mean I might as well be talking with aliens from pluto...

A culture is only as superior as its technology and capacity to project its power... that's the only measurable vector of "superiority"

again the age old saying rings true: "The strong do what they want and the weak suffer what they must"

A culture must be either feared or be a victim ... there is no other alternative...

Cultural relativism is a delusion and a disease of the mind. (actually you're not relativistic... since the only value jugment you make are negative ones on Western culture... so its clear that you see Western Culture as hopelessly inferior to all others...)

[Wild Bill]

It is a big mistake to say that all religions and cultures have equal merit. Some religions and cultures spawn only violence and discord; others productive building and industry.

Agreed! It is also a mistake to equate intelligence with culture. Bin Laden is obviously an extremely intelligent man.

So are many white supremacists, it would seem. A smart mind is not necessarily an open mind. That would depend far more on the culture in which it was raised. Some very intelligent men in British history wrote deep treatises on how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

[lictor616]

Some human races are more intelligent than others.

That sure explains why the combustian engine was invented by a Birton, but not a Sami.

That sure explains why the Aztecs built pyramids, but did not invent cannon powder, paper, printing like the Chinese did. That explains why the Utes, the genetic cousins of the Aztecs. did not build pyramids.

That sure explains why Azkhenazi Jews perform higher in IQ. test than Jews of other cultural/geographic background, despite findings that there are few genetic differences between most of these groups.

facepalm/

Ashkenazi Jews are quite European in characteristics... from 400 years of interbreeding ... many have blond and red hair...

so yes .. all of these different progressions are signs and living proof that genes bestow different types and degrees of intelligence just as they bestow different skin tones, eye color, type of hair etc...

what a DUH moment..

[lictor616]

The few facts offered (such not all cultures are at the same level) are nothing but a foundation for a big lie, that some are more intelligent than others just because of their race. The facts offered are taken out of context, and any counter-argument is purposely distorted. The "ad hominem attacks" are actually needed when dealing with that kind of intellectually dishonest discourse.

You are of course free to disagree.

You neatly forgot to mention the FACT THAT THE MOST PROMINENT BIOLOGIST ERNST MAYR MADE A STATEMENT THAT RACES EXIST AND ARE NOT EQUAL.

In fact you simply disgustingly glossed over every indisputable datum I used to support my thesis... and nitpicked at the "barbarism" of pushing back the Australoids and being mean and "unfair" to native populations...

You made no pretense of counter-arguing because you knew you had no prospects for success in doing so.

I get the same reaction when I debate evolution with crazed evangelicals... I mentioned this earlier..

[lictor616]

Since humans have almost all the same genes, it would be better to define a "race" by its mutations, which are random natural occurrences.

haahah! are we ALMOST equal then!!?

yes yes... "ALMOST" the same genes.. ALMOST..... i like that... you decided that by yourself? using what method of elucidation? Did you look at a Haitian person and a Redheaded Irishman and say ... hmm yeah they've got ALMOST the same genes there...

We also share 99.4% of our genes with chimpanzees... and many other with porcine subspecies (ie pigs) ... so how does that account for a theory of complete racial equality?

[lictor616]

The few facts offered (such not all cultures are at the same level) are nothing but a foundation for a big lie, that some are more intelligent than others just because of their race. The facts offered are taken out of context, and any counter-argument is purposely distorted. The "ad hominem attacks" are actually needed when dealing with that kind of intellectually dishonest discourse.

You are of course free to disagree.

ad hominems are needed only when you run out of intellectual "steam"... they are the cowards and idiots favorite arsenal. You don't make yourself win an argument by boycotting intellectual discourse and boycotting your brain...

the BIG LIE is your impossible theory of complete intellectual and racial equality...

Faced with my claim that no such equality exists... and my consequent refutation of a status of equality with the record of technological and scientific advancements made by various races and also data suggesting different IQ's along racial lines... it seems that it would behoove you to produce SOME shred of palpable counter-refutation to SUSTAIN your theory of complete racial equality (while you recognized that whites are perhaps different only in that they are more barbaric and violent and cruel then all other "equal races")...

Its up to YOU to show me through A and B how the races are all perfectly to the hundredth decimal EQUAL in all intellectual capacities... and further sustain that with a comparable set of suggestive examples (inventions, or proof of problem solving abilities per say)...

without such refutation... you show me that your belief in equality is not supported by any sort of reasonable data... you consequently reveal the intellectual bankruptcy of your beleif system... i.e. your religion of Egalitarianism...

hmmm religion...

actually... your Egalitarianism would at least make some sense if you could point to a ghost or deity that could have wrought all those marvelous cancellations of biological facts... but without a god who could have decreed such an "equality", your beliefs are exposed as having no other basis at all other then your own resentment of reality.

[CANADIEN]

And they tend to show that you've lost the argument.

You don't "win" arguments with the likes of lictor, since they will not climb out from the hole they're in. You tell remind them you know what kind of people they are.

[CANADIEN]

Oh you are racist.. make no mistake about it... just read your anti-white ravings to see: you use only negative adjective to describe us....

they came from a culture with BETTER "technological knowledge".... but that doesn't make them BETTER? I'm lost again...

I must be a racist, since I think that whites (including me, btw) are no more and no less human because of their race. And because I know the measure of how good or bad a person or a culture is not the technology. Yeah right. And once again, congratulations for the way you distort what I say.

Edited April 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

haahah! are we ALMOST equal then!!?

yes yes... "ALMOST" the same genes.. ALMOST..... i like that... you decided that by yourself? using what method of elucidation? Did you look at a Haitian person and a Redheaded Irishman and say ... hmm yeah they've got ALMOST the same genes there...

We also share 99.4% of our genes with chimpanzees... and many other with porcine subspecies (ie pigs) ... so how does that account for a theory of complete racial equality?

So now, the differences between human races are like the differences between humans and... pigs? How long before we get to "some races are not really human?"

BTW, I don't know about you, but when I see an Iroshman and an Haitian, I don't know which one of the two has a PHD in nuclear physics just from their physical features (a prime element of race). But when I look at them and two pigs, I know the pigs are not human.

Edited April 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

ad hominems are needed only when you run out of intellectual "steam"... they are the cowards and idiots favorite arsenal. You don't make yourself win an argument by boycotting intellectual discourse and boycotting your brain...

As I said before, you'll be able to see how I react to intellectual discourse when you post something that qualifies as intellectual discourse.

the BIG LIE is your impossible theory of complete intellectual and racial equality...

The big lie is yours, and includes the way you keep claiming that I said there is complete intellectual and racial equality. What I claim, and know from logic, is that there is no foundation to any claim that race has anything to do with intelligence.

You keep ignoring FACTS, such as the tenuous link between IQ test results and actual intelligence, and statements by the American Psychological Association on the lack of evidence that genes is a major factor in IQ. Could it be because that's something you can't twwwist around?

Faced with my claim that no such equality exists... and my consequent refutation of a status of equality with the record of technological and scientific advancements made by various races and also data suggesting different IQ's along racial lines... it seems that it would behoove you to produce SOME shred of palpable counter-refutation to SUSTAIN your theory of complete racial equality

Once again, my claim, or more exactly the FACT, is that race has nothing to do with intelligence. I see you have not seen fit to explain differences in tehcnological levels or IQ scores within individual races, when I challenged you to The very existence of those differences is sufficient proof that there is no causal relation between race and intelligence, which explains why you cannot answer that one.

(while you recognized that whites are perhaps different only in that they are more barbaric and violent and cruel then all other "equal races")...

Your intellectual dishonesty at play again. You know full well that what I said, and is proven by history, is that white cultures are as capable of the outmost cruelty against other humans as any other. Not that that are more cruel or violent.

Its up to YOU to show me through A and B how the races are all perfectly to the hundredth decimal EQUAL in all intellectual capacities... and further sustain that with a comparable set of suggestive examples (inventions, or proof of problem solving abilities per say)...

Instead, I provide the evidence that race has nothing to do with intellectual capacity and intelligence, and you will not even dare addressing it (like in, how come the Aztecs built pyramids, but the Utes did not, or how come IQ results among African-Americans improved significantly after school desegragation?). it is up to you to TRY to demonstrate how that fits with your theory there is a link between race and intelligence.

actually... your Egalitarianism would at least make some sense if you could point to a ghost or deity that could have wrought all those marvelous cancellations of biological facts... but without a god who could have decreed such an "equality", your beliefs are exposed as having no other basis at all other then your own resentment of reality.

The only reality that counts is that we are all humans, and that there is no logical foundation to the claim that races has anything to do with intelligence. You have been, and will remain unable to disprove the second fact. Let's see what you'll do with the first one.

BTW, God does indeed exist, but one does not need Him/Her as a proof that humans are... humans.

Edited April 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[benny]

haahah! are we ALMOST equal then!!?

yes yes... "ALMOST" the same genes.. ALMOST..... i like that... you decided that by yourself? using what method of elucidation? Did you look at a Haitian person and a Redheaded Irishman and say ... hmm yeah they've got ALMOST the same genes there...

We also share 99.4% of our genes with chimpanzees... and many other with porcine subspecies (ie pigs) ... so how does that account for a theory of complete racial equality?

To benefit everyone, the diversification of genes should be agreed upon, with each individual having an equal say on the agreement.

[lictor616]

You don't "win" arguments with the likes of lictor, since they will not climb out from the hole they're in. You tell remind them you know what kind of people they are.

I'll gladly crawl out of my hole if you provide me with compelling evidence... BUT: your insults, ad hominems, and threats tell me that I'm right...

[lictor616]

Once again, my claim, or more exactly the FACT, is that race has nothing to do with intelligence. I see you have not seen fit to explain differences in tehcnological levels or IQ scores within individual races, when I challenged you to The very existence of those differences is sufficient proof that there is no causal relation between race and intelligence, which explains why you cannot answer that one.

Here you go again: you simply assert something as fact without explaining your reasoning for it or showing me your

Why is judging the intelligence of a people by measurable IQ scores taken from huge samples and considering their technological aptitudes (or rather lack thereof) somehow not "proof that there is no causal relation between race and intelligence"...

I mean assuming something short of complete idiocy - you'll at least concede that there is reason to believe that a people's GENES do in fact influence certain aptitudes.. I mean logically, if a race or "groups of people" are consistently shown to have low IQ's and proven to have historically little or no capacity for complex problem solving (as the Australoids are)... I mean at what point will you concede that there is certainly validity in such a concept .. how can you not put 2 and 2 together?

How can you say:

"The very existence of those differences is sufficient proof that there is no causal relation between race and intelligence"

existence of differences is PROOF that there is no difference in intelligence between races? Am I reading this correctly?!

If I did that that is "Credo quia absurdum" and that is sheer lunacy and madness.

If you really believe that "the differences prove that we're equal" ... then you're simply out of your mind.. and I need not further pain you by asking you to rationally account for your theory of complete racial equality....

Countless studies (from IQ by nation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ... http://www.news-medical.net/?id=9530... http://www.apa.org/journals/law/) corroborate the fact that intelligence is intricately linked with race (because race is GENES)

and there is every reason to believe that just as race colors a persons skin, and gives his face a particular appearance, and makes one vulnerable to specific diseases... that it also "colors his mind"...

tell me that this is not plain logic & common sense?

I mean why is such a concept utterly implausible to you?

[lictor616]

The only reality that counts is that we are all humans, and that there is no logical foundation to the claim that races has anything to do with intelligence. You have been, and will remain unable to disprove the second fact. Let's see what you'll do with the first one.

BTW, God does indeed exist, but one does not need Him/Her as a proof that humans are... humans.

to use a parallel term: we could say ... that dogs are all member of the "genus canis".. or that cats are cats... You really believe that when you say "we are all humans" that you've said something profound!?

.. but you haven't ... cats are cats... but is a tiger equal to a Panther?

are all races of dogs equal in intelligence?

NONSENSE!

I hear these arguments OVER AND OVER AGAIN... "we are all one race the human race" "we all bleed red" " we all have hearts" "we all eat, urinate, copulate and pooh"

these arguments score ZERO... yes we're all humans... but hardly equal..

And god is an illusory concept that is unprovable because can't prove a negative...

And god is no proof of anything... because (like the concept of complete racial equality) "god" has no single proof of existence... not a shred of palpable evidence... NOTHING...